Jump to content


  • Tweets

  • Posts

    • He was one of four former top executives from Sam Bankman-Fried's firms to plead guilty to charges.View the full article
    • The private submersible industry was shaken after the implosion of the OceanGate Titan sub last year.View the full article
    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
  • Recommended Topics

  • Our picks

    • If you are buying a used car – you need to read this survival guide.
      • 1 reply
    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

      Car was dirty and test drive was two circuits of roundabout on entry to the showroom.  Was p/x my car and rushed by sales exec and a manager into buying the mini and a 3yr warranty that night, sale all wrapped up by 10pm.  They strongly advised me taking warranty out on car that age (2017) and confirmed it was honoured at over 500 UK registered garages.

      The next day, 18/1/24 noticed amber engine warning light on dashboard , immediately phoned BMW aftercare team to ask for it to be investigated asap at nearest garage to me. After 15 mins on hold was told only their 5 service centres across the UK can deal with car issues with earliest date for inspection in March ! Said I’m not happy with that given what sales team advised or driving car. Told an amber warning light only advisory so to drive with caution and call back when light goes red.

      I’m not happy to do this, drive the car or with the after care experience (a sign of further stresses to come) so want a refund and to return the car asap.

      Please can you advise what I need to do today to get this done. 
       

      Many thanks 
      • 81 replies
    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
      • 161 replies
    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
        • Like
  • Recommended Topics

Amex 60-second Application Form - 2000


style="text-align: center;">  

Thread Locked

because no one has posted on it for the last 5312 days.

If you need to add something to this thread then

 

Please click the "Report " link

 

at the bottom of one of the posts.

 

If you want to post a new story then

Please

Start your own new thread

That way you will attract more attention to your story and get more visitors and more help 

 

Thanks

Recommended Posts

Just a quick update on this thread.

 

I asked about securitisation and basically got told it was none of my business. I will write again and say I want a statement from a notary to say it has not been securitised.

 

They are also stating categorically that the Conditions were on the back of the application form - even though with a tight squeeze they could only actually fit two thirds of what were the conditions at the time on the back of the copy of the application form they sent which they are insisting is the agreement. I think the time has now come for me to request a visit to see it for myself.

 

The Default Notice did not give me time to remedy - same as everyone else's: 14 days from the date of their letter, not allowing for postage.

 

I will draft a letter and post it here for any advice you can give me.

 

DD

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...
  • Replies 102
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

Posted Images

Just a few words on the importance of %APR in agreements.

 

Schedule 1 of the 1981 regs of CCA 1974 requires the following to be shown

 

a) the annual rate

 

b) the manner in which the annual rate is to be applied.

 

c) certain circumstances where the %APR must be shown.

 

Now Schedule 1 is nearly always ignored by the banks. Why? - because deficiencies in the above only make the agreement unenforceable if a judge says it is and judges are unlikely to make an agreement unenforceable if the requirements of Scedule 1 are incorrectly shown.

 

Schedule 6 makes certain terms (the prescribed terns ) mandatory and judges cannot (but still sometimes do) make an agreement enforceable if certain things are left out of an agreement.

 

For interest it is - the rate of any interest to be applied. This must be shown accurately.

 

So an annual rate is OK provided this corresponds with a monthly rate if shown.

 

A monthly rate is OK provided this corresponds with a yearly rate if shown

 

An APR is not OK because it is an approximation to the annual rate (to one decimal place).

 

So forget the accuracy of APRs in agreements - in most credit card agreements where there are no charges they do not have to shown at all and it is very unusual for the %APR to be equal to the annual rate.

 

 

NB The APR is NOT the annual rate,.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Hi D.D.

When you received your 60 second application form, it would possibly have been a tear off at the bottom of a letter inviting you to apply.

Do you recall this?

Also the 60 second application would possibly have been a folded in three document which was then to be posted back to Amex. Therefore would not include any terms & conditions-do you recall this.

Also when you received your card -this document would be possibly the first document which had your credit limit on (which would be on the front along with the include credit card) and on the back would have been your terms & conditions-- do you still have this document somewhere? do you recall it at all?

Just thoughts for you

Regards Castella

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you, Pelham. I haven't gone into that side of things yet as I am still arguing about the back of the agreement and securitisation, and I haven't even told them yet that their DN is faulty, so will do the sums soon. I have finally got a scanner so when I work it out I will scan up the document.

 

Castella,

 

The form was 2/3 A4 in its entirety. I cannot remember where it came from but it definitely wasn't a tear-off. The argument is what is on the back. I am going to ask for sight of the document.

 

I don't recall any document or any terms and conditions coming with the card. I am a hoarder so I suppose it could be in the attic somewhere, but I haven't found it yet. In any case if the T&Cs were in a separate document that doesn't comply with the regulations of CCA 1974 - House of Lords' Authority on that, and a judge upheld the same thing in the Court case in Yorkshire which you've probably read about. :)

 

DD

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi

The one I received a little earlier than yours, was a tear off slip at the bottom of the invitation letter--there were no terms and conditions on the back. The first terms & conditions sent as such were with the gold card approx 10 days later.

I still have the original of that, and also the terms & conditions on the further gold card that Amex sent a couple of years later. (I am also a horder)

Just trying to help you in any way I can --as we are in similar positions with amex possibly.

They have put in a claim which includes a sixty second application form which they purport to be the agreement along with terms and conditions which appear to be from much later.Plus the usual default notice which only gives 14 days from the date of the letter.

Keep your spirits up

Regards castella

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Castella,

 

It's clear from the copy of my application form that it almost certainly really was 2/3 A4. There is no sign of any tear off at top or bottom. It already had my name and address filled in so it must have been sent to me. The T&Cs they are saying were on the back don't fit. They are also only 2/3 of the T&Cs they were sending out on a separate document at the time.

 

You keep your spirits up too. :)

 

DD

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...

Hi DD, I have exactly the same situation as you. A sixty second application form, with a very suspicious looking set of T & C's photocopied onto the reverse.

 

I am involved in court action, which they have recently brought against me. I am insisting on seeing the original, but nothing yet and frankly I doubt it exists. My feeling is that they will say the original has been destroyed but the cut'n'paste job they sent me is an exact copy.

 

Where did you get with your efforts?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi DD Hi dp77--

The terms &conditions on the rear of the sixty second application-do you have your original copy of your agreement as sent with your first amex card-if you do have it, look at ponts 7 & 8 and 12on their conditions and on your actual agreement as sent--also does their 60second application on the back under terms& conditions have any cancellation rights--if its a true copy of the actual agreement they would be on there would they not

Have they started a claim against you DD- I'm at the AQ stage, what stage are you at dp? Have either of you sent a cpr 31.14 yet

Regards castella

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Castella,

 

They have started a claim, I submitted a CPR 31.14, and they responded by asking for more time "verify the document". I'm just weighing up what sort of defence to file, either a holding one, or a fuller one.

 

I don't have my original agreement, it was processed in 2001. However the T&C they photocopied onto the back of my application form have no right to cancel.

 

I will respond in more detail later, there is an interesting twist, but I have to take my dog to puppy training now :D

Link to post
Share on other sites

hi dp77

Remember what BRW has said about Amex---you cannot trust them --you ought possibly to file as full a defence as possible with a note to the court that once you have received a response to the cpr 31.14 requests to be permitted to amend the defence in due course--that is only my thoughts & opinion no one elses, as you have in my opinion 'to cover all the bases' and try to leave no stone unturned with them. There are some excellent defences on the site as such, many from PT -purely my thoughts for what they are worth, & I have no legal background as such. Just common sense

Can you recall when you signed your original application many years ago was there any conditions on the back, or where you to fold the application form up and seal the edges down and send it back to them.

I have the original invitation letter as sent with the sixty second application, a letter of acceptance from amex of the application and the actual copy agreement as sent with the card.

Be carefull how much time they take to respond to the CPR 31.14 as regards (here's one I pre- - red ear - ier) which I leave to everyone's imagination.(purely my thoughts only)

How is the default notice they sent you is it compliant or does it state 14 calendar days from the date of this default notice? Have you had a notice of cancellation from Amex?

A further thought ref your defence-you could always write a reply to amex or their solicitors saying that you request them to agree to give you 14 days to file your defence after receiving their responses to your cpr 31.14 .

Regards Castella

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi dp77 and Castella,

 

I've been out on the road all day but will get the stuff out later or first thing tomorrow.

 

The DN will definitely be wrong. They all are, and Amex won't change them because to do so would admit them are in the wrong.

 

dp77, have you asked if the account was securitised?

 

There is another thread here with exactly the same form as I had for 2000, and there will be for 2001.

 

It's clear from my comparison with the other poster and the T&Cs they posted him that they could not have all been on the back.

 

I have twice asked them to visit my agreement which they have told me is a true copy, but they ignored it. I got a letter from a DCA but sent them a copy of my letter to Amex and didn't hear anything back.

 

As Amex said it was their final response I must get on with my FOS complaint.

 

BRW is absolutely right. You can't trust them. As you'll see from my early posts what they said was on the back just couldn't have been and they only went up to 18 or 19 T&Cs when they were currently using about 27!

 

Will check it again and come back to you.

 

DD

Link to post
Share on other sites

I intend to file a holding defence, reserving the right to submit a full defence once I see this document they claim to have. Who is PT, one of the posters on site? I will search for his defences, thanks for the tip.

 

I am certain the form I filled in had nothing on the back, although it was 8 years ago. In response to a SAR I got a copy of my original application, with some more recent T&C's photocopied onto the reverse. Those T&C's were not on the original, and there is no way they will produce that original in court, they are going to claim it has been destroyed and what they have presented is a micro file copy. We will see if they can convince the Judge of that, even then the document is not properly executed, it has no signature from Amex and it has no right to cancel.

 

I never received a default notice, and although I intend to bring that up in defence, and put them to strict proof they issued one in the correct format I think the key issue is the original agreement. Judges have found for the defendant in cases where the original cannot be produced, I don't know if the same can be said for an improperly served Default Notice. I have a pretty good proof that the T&C's on the copy they cut'n'pasted together were not on the original.

 

Re the CPR 31.14; Amex have already said they will allow me a further 14 days from when they provide the document, but as I say I intend to file a holding defence anyway.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Desperate Daniella; I will scan in and post this evening the T&C's that mysteriously appeared on the back on my application. I would be very interested to hear how they compare to what you received. My photocopied list of T&C's also has 18 itemised points, which sounds very similar to what you described, I'm wondering if we got the same T&C's?

 

I'm used to the Amex section of the forum, where there are one or two posts a day, this section is absolutely crazy, hundreds of posts every day, it seems everyone needs advice and I had no idea this many people were in trouble.

 

Castella; I think by PT you mean pt2537? You mentioned that he had posted some esxcellent defences, which I would very much like to read. I checked the threads pt2537 started, but there are quite a few! Do you have a link to any of his suggested defences, or can you remember which threads they were in?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Desperate Daniella; I have found another poster who appears to have the same T&C's as us; I don't know if you have seen this thread;

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/200454-amex-cca-received-enforceable.html#post2181276

 

The original poster has a slightly different front page to us, i.e. an application form although not the 60 second one, but the OP was sent the same T&C's that we appear to have, which Amex claim was the reverse page.

 

The point in that thread that concerns is the statement; "agreement is enforceable as I am sure a court would rule that the two pages are opposite sides of the same docuement. It has everything needed to be enforceable - signaure, prescribed terms, cancellation rights"

 

That comment was made by someone with 13,000 posts, so I assume they know what they are talking about.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi dp77,

 

I've gone to the thread and can't open the Amex pdf showing the agreement. Apparently it's damaged. Did you manange to open it?

 

What they have said was on the back of my application clearly can't have been there.

 

Will just check a couple of things on other threads and come back to you.

 

DD

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi,

 

It's Elgrand's thread Is this Amex application enforeceable post 90. That leaflet has almost the same conditions I had - there's just one tiny difference, but the point is that they could only get part of them on the back of a piece of paper (the application form) which is 2/3 of A4. They have not sent me the leaflet because I've already told them that the T&Cs cannot be on a separate piece of paper, so they have to stick to their original line that they were on the back. Of course they didn't reply at all to my request to visit them to see my agreement.

 

Quiet at the moment, but if I hear anything more from anyone I'll start the FOS complaint.

Link to post
Share on other sites

dp77 holding defence to consider from scabhunter post 44

RE:court papers and filing a defence - help please

Also a good site to read through is:

Zhanzibar vs Amex/AIC/Newman/Brachers Solicitors

and also

Surface agent x20-Tale of a dodgy default notice. (just surface agentx20 reasoning on this site) (no offence meant to anyone else who has posted on that site).

and also peterbard Re: Agreement Enforceability post 26

 

All those should be of interest to you -hope they help

Regards castella

Link to post
Share on other sites

hi DD - hi dp77

would you believe it -amex have sent a further default notice after termination in an attempt to rectify some of the mistakes in the original default notice which I stated in the defence

The original default notice was issued in autumn 2007 with a termination notice being issued some two weeks plus later in 2007.

This new default notice is dated oct 2009.Issued nearly two years post termination.

anyone got any thoughts on this

regards castella

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for all your help. I have just sent off my embarrassed defence, and will now wait to see what the claimant come up with in response. Meanwhile I am going to devote some time to working out when the T&C's that were photocopied onto the back of my 2001 application were actually printed.

 

Castella; I am certainly no expert but it seems Amex are bending every possible rule in order to enforce claims. The tactics used by them, or their representatives - sending court papers to old addresses, making up twin sided agreements which were originally one sided, denying all access to any original documentation, to name a few - suggest they are desperate for cash and will resort to whatever they feel will bully people into paying. Or indeed whatever will bully some courts into siding with them.

 

It seems common knowledge that Amex default notices did not conform to statutory requirements, perhaps you are among the first to experience a belated attempt by Amex to rectify this? I wish I had the legal expertise to offer more constructive advice but sending out a DN two years late sounds highly dubious. Someone with more experience will have to answer on whether it is 'legal'.

 

Meanwhile if I find anything that will help I will let you know.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 Caggers

    • No registered users viewing this page.

  • Have we helped you ...?


×
×
  • Create New...