Virgin Card - Mbna Cca Is It Valid??

[bozalt]

Hi

 

I hope some one will be able to advise me regarding the CCA I have been sent by MBNA.

I have looked at information regarding CCA's

and to my untrained eye although blurry what I have received appears valid.

 

I originally had financial problems around ten months ago with an account balance of £6200

despite making payments of £40.00 per month

 

MBNA have added charges and the balance is now £7600.00

the account has been passed to 1st credit.

 

MBNA had offered to settle for £2700 but would not confirm as F & F in writing,

1st Credit now say they would not offer any reduction and want higher repayments.

 

I would be grateful for any assistance some of the more experienced on this board can offer.

 

Many thanks and happy New Year to all!

 

http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/2259/mbnaccafrontho6hs4.jpg

 

http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/6835/mbnaccabackfc0.jpg

 

I know this is similar to Muffintops thread to which I have subscribed

and is great for novice's like me so I will be using that for info

but some advice regarding this would be great.

 

 

The CCA was sent to me together with the current terms and conditions which appear to be undated and stipulate charges different to those shown the scan of the back of the agreement/application.

 

 

As per 'Banker Ryhmes With' reply to Muffintop the terms on the agreement I signed appear to be pre-contractural so look like a combined application/agreement form

although it does show the credit limit granted,

 

 

should I reply asking to see the original copy of the agreement?

As the balance claimed by MBNA is over £5k will this make it easier

or harder for them to take me to court and is it more serious?

 

Once again, many thanks in advance for any advice you can give.

[Muffintop]

Bozalt, subscribed to you thread now.

You tear off slip does look very much the same as mine although my signature box is at the bottom of the page and yours isnt.

 

 

also mine is SIGNED but this is apparently likely to be my APPLICATION FORM and is a copy of a microfiche which is likely that they have scanned it on their systems and shredded the originals as per their mo.

 

I had a big panic last night as you will see from my thread over the bit above the signature (in your case no signature) unless you took it out online?

 

 

which said I have received a copy of and agree to be bound by the MBNA credit card terms and conditions and I undertand that I am responsibile for paying any balances due on my credit card.

 

I thought this meant for sure that I had signed to say that my terms and conditions didnt have to be in the four corners of the doc as creditcardmug and banker rhymes had advised me along with ragtaggeorge

 

 

but it turned out that terms and conditions are different from prescribed terms and conditons as far as cca 74 is concerned.

 

I noticed that your slip does not have the correct heading either

which is a good point for court defence

 

 

It says Credit agreement when it should stated Credit CARD agreement,

take a look at my thread so Banker doesnt have to repeat himself.

 

 

. Not sure about the charges issue my tear off slip states the charges are 25.00 and they are now 12.00 but dont know what charge they put on my terms and conds which they sent separately going to take a look after Eastenders!

 

Is it just me or is this thread coming up super size huge when you click into it?

[bozalt]

Thanks Muffintop thats excellent, useful and much appreciated information , my signature is on the front sheet but I removed it to avoid identification. I will follow your thread and watch for updates.

 

Good luck with the battle!

 

Thanks

 

ps. Images were too large so have removed them!

[angel_1]

hiya bozalt

 

looks like yours is similar to mine, and muffintops

 

ive subbed to muffins thread too

 

it appears quite a lot of us here are getting the same type of paperwork, ive disputed the legibility of mine and was stopped with a final responce from mbna and now they are calling and writing that i must contact them

 

yeah likely not - lol

 

so now im seeing what their next move is, ive not paid them for 3 months now and i want to see if they now sell debt - am sussing my options whether i should start a court action and taking the ball to them so to speak but just a thought for now

 

will be back later and good luck in your endeavours

 

laters angel x:cool:

[bozalt]

Hi Angel

 

Thanks for your reply, they do look similar indeed.

 

I have been paying a reduced amount for about 9 months now but have stopped these and placed the account in dispute.

 

I have subscribed to your thread but wondered if you have a copy of the letter you sent in relation the CCA you received so I could send something similar?

 

Thanks for your help!

[Muffintop]

Dear

 

Thank you for your letter dated 25 November 2008 and the attached documents in response to my Statutory Requests for true copies of the properly executed Regulated Consumer Credit Card Agreements in relation to both alleged Accounts

Unfortunately neither responses have produced any evidence that either of the Agreements are Enforceable.

Both of the alleged Agreements appear to be unenforceable for

the following reasons:

 

 

1. Both documents are Application Forms and neither carry the correct title if they are to be considered suitable as becoming Agreements once properly executed. The missing Title being 'Credit Card Agreement Regulated by The Consumer Credit Act 1974.'

 

2. I am entitled to receive a true copy of the Agreements and such true copies must be easily legible. Neither agreement is a true copy, nor are they easily legible. Various parts of the copies are defaced and obscured by barcode stickers, random signatures. Both are also hard to read due to poor quality copying. Furthermore, one of your Signatures appears to be within the Debtor's Signature Box.

 

3. The

Agreements must contain the prescribed terms within the four corners of the

Agreement, neither agreement has the prescribed terms within the four corners and furthermore no where on the front is there any reference to terms and conditions being on the reverse.

 

You should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY

action against an account whilst it remains in dispute.

 

The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

 

* You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

 

* You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.

 

* You may not pass the account to a third party.

 

* You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

 

* You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

 

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit including but not limited to Trading Standards, the Office of Fair Trading, the Information Commissioners Office, The Financial Ombudsman Service and my MP .

 

If you have the original of my alleged Agreements available I request that I be allowed to view them at your offices so I can verify them as the alleged documents that I signed.

 

I must also remind you that any court action you may choose to take would require you to produce the original of the alleged Agreements.

 

I look forward to hearing from you within the next 7 days.

Until such time as you comply with my Statutory Requests, both alleged Accounts remain in dispute.

 

Yours sincerely

Is this the letter your looking for when they have sent a pokey cca and you want to go onto the next step, this is from a wise persons thread not sure who of the top of my head but sure they wont mind me sharing, you will have to change it somewhat as this relates to two accounts with same creditor. send recorded del and keep the copy check its been delivered and note the date they had it, keep a file for your paperwork.

Angel, let me know if you go to next base and take them to court, I think I would rather do this and take the bull by the horns and get it over and done with one way or the other, take it your looking at small claims court.under 5k

Edited October 5, 2009 by citizenB
Removed annoying font formatting commands

[Muffintop]

Thanks Muffintop thats excellent, useful and much appreciated information , my signature is on the front sheet but I removed it to avoid identification. I will follow your thread and watch for updates.

 

Good luck with the battle!

 

Thanks

 

ps. Images were too large so have removed them!

Bozalt they were really big and was good to look at but think it messed up the whole thread, it would be good idea to put them back on in smaller form, I had a lot of trouble with this initially but use photobucket with a lot of guidance and scanned docs then downloaded to photobucket then you can highlight the direct link and put the link on thread for people to click into. Feel a bit better than you had a signature but blanked it with white paper, I was dim to begin with and didnt... but then blacked my out.

[angel_1]

hiya Bozalt

 

many thanks for your welcome, i was going to post a letter here but looks like muffintop beat me, lol

 

that letter seems better than mine only thing i enforced more was the inlegible bit

 

 

see below, take and mix it up a bit to your personal circumstances etc

 

*****

All you have sent for each alleged account is a document, which is illegible and therefore not compliant with the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1557), your attention is drawn to regulation 2 (1) which sets out how copy documents must be presented

 

Notwithstanding the fact that the documents sent are illegible and incomplete they do not appear clear for me to read if they contain the prescribed terms contained within Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553). Without production of the compliant executed agreements I am unable to asses if I am indeed liable for any alleged debts to you, nor does it give me any chance to evaluate whether any original agreements were ‘properly executed’.

The documents that you are obliged to send me are true copies of the properly executed Agreements that contained all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both your company and myself as defined in section 61(1) of CCA 74 and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreements contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document. In addition a full statement of these accounts should have been sent to me detailing all debits and credits to the accounts.

 

************

you could add bits of mine to muffintops and see what you end up with without duplicating info. Hope that makes sense

laters angel x

[bozalt]

Thanks to you both, I will send a letter disputing validity of the CCA and see what happens.

 

Watch this space!!!

 

:)

[bozalt]

With the information kindly provided by Muffintop and Angel I sent the following letter to MBNA via 1st credit and received acknowledgement but still no reply although it hasnt stopped first credit from calling me.

 

__________________________________________________________

Thank you for your letter dated XX and the attached document in response to my statutory request for a true copy of the properly executed Regulated Consumer Credit Card Agreement.

The alleged agreement appears to be unenforceable for the following reasons;

 

1. The document is an application form and does not carry the correct title if it is to be considered suitable as becoming an agreement once properly executed. The missing title being 'Credit Card Agreement Regulated by The Consumer Credit Act 1974.'

 

2 The document that you are obliged to send me is a true copy of the properly executed agreement that contains all of the prescribed terms, all other required terms and statutory notices and was signed by both the creditor and myself as defined in section 61(1) of CCA 74 and subsequent Statutory Instruments. If the executed agreements contained any reference to any other document, you are also obliged to send me a copy of that document. What you have sent for the alleged account is a document, which is illegible and therefore not compliant with the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1557), it is also unsigned by the creditor. Your attention is drawn to regulation 2 (1) which sets out how copy documents must be presented.

3. Notwithstanding the fact that the documents sent are illegible and incomplete they do not appear clear for me to read if they contain the prescribed terms contained within Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553). Without production of the compliant executed agreements I am unable to asses if I am indeed liable for any alleged debts, nor does it give me any chance to evaluate whether any original agreements were ‘properly executed’. The agreement provided does not show the prescribed terms within the four corners and furthermore nowhere on the front is there any reference to terms and conditions being on the reverse or on a separate page.

 

You should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take ANY action against an account whilst it remains in dispute. The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following applies.

 

*You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.

*You may not add further interest or any charges to the account.

*You may not pass the account to a third party.

*You may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.

*You may not issue a default notice related to the account.

 

I reserve the right to report your actions to any such regulatory authorities as I see fit including but not limited to Trading Standards, the Office of Fair Trading, the Information Commissioners Office, The Financial Ombudsman Service and my MP .

 

If you have the original of my alleged agreements available I request that I be allowed to view them at your offices so I can verify them as the alleged documents that I signed.

 

I must also remind you that any court action you may choose to take would require you to produce the original of the alleged agreements.

 

I look forward to hearing from you within the next seven days.

 

Until such time as you comply with my requests, the alleged account remains in dispute.

 

 

__________________________________________________________

 

MBNA have already defaulted my account, does anybody have any ideas what their next course of action would be???

 

Thanks

[angel_1]

hiya bozalt

 

well, i would just suggest you now read as many threads as you can over mbna and 1st credit

 

im still fighting like a cat so to speak, but i think just to be even more of a thorn fos and oft will be hearing from me now

 

been defaulted too so im learning still myself

 

ANYway,,have reread your thread and posts again , and tonight it finally dawned on me that mine also states Credit AGreement reg by the consumer credit act 1974.... id read that the title really should be Credit Card Agreement etc, but unitl tonight didnt notice until i looked at mine again so huge thanks,,,

 

 

keep positive for now

 

laters angel x

Edited March 2, 2009 by angel_1

[bozalt]

Hello experienced Caggers

 

I received the attached letter, reproduce below, from 1st Credit in response to my letter querying the validity of the CCA supplied and legibility.

 

It seems that MBNA/1st Credit now want me to supply a copy of the alleged agreement and claim the onus is not on them to provide a true copy.

 

I would really appreciate any assistance is drafting a reply, I am inclined to think this proves they do not hold a valid CCA that could be produced in court.

 

Many thanks:D

 

I ^credit 1Osm Cnibdus LBmuiiltdeidniT he

Lesbourne Road Reigate Surrey RH2 7JP

Tel: 0870 164204 Fax: 0870 1642071

Dear

Ref:

Assigned account from MBNA - £XXXX

We refer to your letter dated XXXXXXX.

We have increased the size of the document for ease of reference and enclose a copy. We will deal with the matters raised in the same order as your letter under reply.

1. That wording is on the document.

2. The prescribed terms are present in our view. You will have received a copy of the agreement in 2003 and we would appreciate receiving a true copy of that document from you.

3. Your statements conflict inasmuch as you state the document to be illegible but specifically allege it to be deficient in certain respects.

4. We do not have nor do we have to produce the original agreement.

5. We have applied for the background statements on the account and will provide these as soon as they become available.

Yours faithfully Compliance Officer

Registered No. 3752940 in England and Wales Registered Office: Hill House, 1 Little New Street, London EC4A 3TR

 

1st credit reply(1).pdf

[angel_1]

hiya bozalt,,,

well this is a first ive seen such a letter,,,,what a laugh asking you to supply them a copy,,,

 

well the onus should be on them to provide what legal paperwork they hold to support their claim they are owed money

 

not sure how to help with any wording for a reply but im sure others more experienced will come along later

 

will check in later for any updates take care for now

 

laters angel x

[bozalt]

Hi Angel

 

Thats exactly what I thought I have searched the forums and havent found anyone who received a similar letter.

 

Not quite sure how to respond as far as I can see they are unwilling/unable to provide a legible copy that adheres to Consumer Credit Regulations.

 

I am hoping some one with more experience than I, can advise how to respond as I guess the next step is for them to take legal action or resort to constant phone calls again???

 

Many thanks

[angel_1]

hiya bozalt

 

well give it a chance for your thread to be seen over the weekend, normally one of the mods maybe able to help and being weekdays many expereinced people may still be at work,,,so hopefully lets wait a few more days

 

well yes the phone calls may start up again sorry to hear that,,, are you monitoring them, have you seen the truecall device,,, it may be useful to you

 

have a good day dont worry too much im sure someone will soon come along later

 

angel x

[ifoughtthelaw]

Hi bozalt,

 

Am new to this site, but have been following Angel and Muffintop's threads as OH going through very similar hassles with MBNA. Don't worry as OH has just received very similar letter stating that he should have a copy of agreement and it should have been retained for his records!! Lol Seems to be a new tactic - they ignore everything and do what they like. Have filed their letter

[bozalt]

Thanks iftl, I am really hoping I can send a letter that brings this all to a conclusion you would think they would at least attempt to reply in a sensible manner.

 

I received a call asking me to pay and for information as to who was advising me, I told them it was none of their business so will await their next move.

[sunflower99]

Hi bolzalt!

Subbing to this thread ! I have just sent a similar letter to MBNA a few weeks pointing out defects in their alleged agreement and asking for an invite to view it i am still waiting for a reply! Me and Angel were thinking about asking MBNA to let us view our agreements on same day!and make a Caggers outing out of it! A visit to chester! LOL:DWhat a cheek them asking you to produce agreement ! LOL it is legal obligation for them not you!! Still that letter from first credit speaks volumes! LOL i suppose you could mention that you realise that under a ordinary s78 request they are not obliged to arrange an appointment for you to see original but you are astounded that they dont want too ! so that the dispute with them could be resolved once and for all and save court time! I have actually asked them to confirm that the two pieces of paper they have sent to me which they have phtographed on the same paper back and front implying but not actually saying are in fact on same document!:Dbut the fact that they have so far ignored my letter and just sent me a default notice speaks volumes!

[sunflower99]

Hi Angel!

I am getting ready for my visiters that MBNA agents and Barclayshark will probably be setting on me! Though they will be wasteing their time as i am out at work a lot of the time! |i hope i dont come home one day to see a DCAs bits splattered round our house :eek:As my husband might not like it and start waving his baseball bat round:eek:i wouldent even wish that on a DCA!still on the serious side my OH keeps door shut now and does not answer door unless he knows who it is.

[bozalt]

Hi Sunflower

 

Do you have a thread of your own, I would be interested to see what response you get from MBNA???

 

Thanks for your advice!

 

[citizenB]

Thanks iftl, I am really hoping I can send a letter that brings this all to a conclusion you would think they would at least attempt to reply in a sensible manner.

 

I received a call asking me to pay and for information as to who was advising me, I told them it was none of their business so will await their next move.

 

LOL, they do seem to have themselves in a muddle dont they. If you had a copy of the contract in the first place then you wouldnt have needed to request a copy. You would have irrefutable proof that the original wasnt compliant.

 

You are correct, it is none of their business who is advising you. They are probably still in a sulk for having been told off by the OFT.

[sunflower99]

Hi Sunflower

 

Do you have a thread of your own, I would be interested to see what response you get from MBNA???

 

Thanks for your advice!

 

Hi Bozalt!

Sorrry to be a bit slow replying to your message Life has been a bit hectic lately! My MBNA thread is called redistressing calls from MBNA I am a bit of a dunce when it comes to posting up threads! LOL but if you click on my profile and then click on mini statistics a link will come up for all my threads! and a direct link to my MBNA thread is listed there!I am stil waiting for my invite to go to MBNA Chester offices to view my alleged agreement!:DThey got it about a fortnight ago so im sure i will be hearing from them soon;They sent me a default notice a short while ago so am now waiting with baited breath and cant wait to see what lovely pond feeder they pass my account onto !:DWell who ever they send it to will get my bemused letter and a request for a original agreement!and a request to view it!

[citizenB]

Hi Bozalt!

Sorrry to be a bit slow replying to your message Life has been a bit hectic lately! My MBNA thread is called redistressing calls from MBNA I am a bit of a dunce when it comes to posting up threads! LOL but if you click on my profile and then click on mini statistics a link will come up for all my threads! and a direct link to my MBNA thread is listed there!

 

I am stil waiting for my invite to go to MBNA Chester offices to view my alleged agreement!:grin:They got it about a fortnight ago so im sure i will be hearing from them soon;They sent me a default notice a short while ago so am now waiting with baited breath and cant wait to see what lovely pond feeder they pass my account onto !:grin:

 

Well who ever they send it to will get my bemused letter and a request for a original agreement!and a request to view it!:grin:

 

 

 

Here you go Sunflower, the link to your thread.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/153409-re-distressing-phone-call.html

[bozalt]

Thanks Citizne B and Sunflower, I am certainly not the fastest to respond myself I think its a habit I developed after dealing with MBNA!!

 

I think at the moment I am going to ignore 1st Credit and see what background information they present, then hit them with the Sars and then a reclaim for charges to MBNA.

[sunflower99]

Here you go Sunflower, the link to your thread.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/153409-re-distressing-phone-call.html

Hi CB!

Thanks for providing the links! I suppose i ought to try andlook at that that Cag thread the dummies guide! as i suppose as ive been on this forum several months now i ought to know how to provide links!I am still a bit of a dummy when it comes to computers and modern gadgets! My hubby is always telling me that its about time i joined the 21st century and got myself out of the 20th! LOL

 

Thanks Citizne B and Sunflower, I am certainly not the fastest to respond myself I think its a habit I developed after dealing with MBNA!!

 

I think at the moment I am going to ignore 1st Credit and see what background information they present, then hit them with the Sars and then a reclaim for charges to MBNA.

Hi bozalt!

I just received a sar from MBNA but not sure what to do with it!I have filed it away in case any of the info comes in handy or i do go down the reclaiming charges road as there are a lot of £12 default charges on it both for late payment and over the limit which i beleive can be claimed back as unfair charges,I will certainly be looking into this if MBNA or one of their pondfeeders atempt to take me to court,I must admit my mathes is not very good so i find the prospect of the task of trying to work charges out very daunting!and dont as yet know how to work them out