Southern Rail taking me to court!

[Puppetman]

Hello.

 

Back in October, I was on my way into work as normal. Slightly rushed.

 

Hopped onto the train as normal, and as I was almost at London Bridge, an Revenue Protection person came around. I reached into my back pocket where I always keep my rail pass. Unfortunately, my hand came out with some old tickets from the weekend. Was in such a rush in the morning that I forgot that I swapped trousers. My pass was in the other pair

 

Anway, I explained this to the lady and she issued me with a Witness Statement thing and said I had 14 days to send them a copy of Rail pass. She asked if I was avoiding the fair. I said no, I already had a pass, but forgot it, and anyway, to get out at my stop I was intending to use a credit card to purchase a ticket to get again.

 

This is where problem one occurs. I signed the form, I only gave it a cursory glance. Stupidly I was expecting her to write down the correct information. On it, it says I was trying to avoid paying the fair. She also never said I could bring it up with the Independant Fine people (or whatever they are called! )

 

By the end of the week, I had sent a copy of my rail pass off to their offices in Croydon, to the address I was given. Second problem, I didn't send it registered.

 

I never heard anything again, so thought all was good. I went on vacation and on my return I moved out of my mums house to a flat elsewhere.

 

A week and a bit ago, I went back home to see her and there was a brown envelope. I was being summoned to court and asked to pay £105. This was news to me. I called them up, and they said that they sent me a letter before the summons. I cant remember what it was supposed to have contained, but suffice to say, it never turned up. I asked if they received my letter and they said they didn't.

 

I am being given the option of pleading guilty and not being there, pleading guilty and appearing, or pleading not guilty. The evidence they have against me is circumstantial, admittedly I was stupid to not read properly, but I assumed that what I was telling the woman was being copied down faithfully.

 

I have been taking that train for over two years now, I have a full time job and have never tried to avoid paying a fair!! It is so irritating.

Sorry for the essay.

 

Any ideas on what I should do? Help please!

[reallymadwoman]

Hi and sorry it's taken so long for you to get a reply.

 

Common sense would dictate that you at least have 'mitigating circumstances' but we all know how far common sense goes in a court room.

 

My reply will bump you up to the top of the forum, so hopefully someone who can really help will be along soon.

[raydetinu]

I think you will have to plead not guilty and go to court with your pass that you forgot and explain all the circumstances. they cant fine you avoiding payment if you have already payed for a pass! or send a copy to them again, this time registered or fax email a copy to save time. No point in them continuing if they will not get anything.

[sillygirl1]

I'd advise going to court and showing them the letter you sent and your pass, they really do take liberties sometimes, I know somebody who refused to sign the form as there was nothing written on it, they were told 'I'll fill it in later' they replied 'I'll sign it later'. The police were called and when they turned up they had located their missing pass, shown it to them and asked for the revenue protection person to be reminded of the CORRECT law in signing blank witness statements. Needless to say this didn't make the papers as it could have caused a stir.

[Dougy79]

I believe if you board a train without a valid ticket you can be done for fare evasion no matter the circumstance-depending on the bye law they are prosecuting you under.

[daniel9878]

I believe they have to prove you had the intention of avoiding payment. Which you clearly didnt.

Which byelaw are you being summonsed under?

 

I would strongly advise you to send a letter via recorded delivery, stating you forgot your pass.

You did not try to avoid the fare

As requested you sent your valid pass to the relevant people

You did not recieve the last letter from them.

The inspector did not accurately write the statement, correct it.

Offer to pay the £20 penalty fair.

Why did you sign something you didnt read??

[daniel9878]

Failing to produce ticket or pay fare on request

STARTING POINT Band A fine

RANGE Conditional discharge to band

B fine

[stevie1958]

Failing to produce ticket or pay fare on request

STARTING POINT Band A fine

RANGE Conditional discharge to band

B fine

 

you would also recieve a criminal record,i would try and sort it out of court and put it down to experience,

[Old-CodJA]

I believe they have to prove you had the intention of avoiding payment. Which you clearly didnt.

Which byelaw are you being summonsed under?

 

I would strongly advise you to send a letter via recorded delivery, stating you forgot your pass.

You did not try to avoid the fare

As requested you sent your valid pass to the relevant people

You did not recieve the last letter from them.

The inspector did not accurately write the statement, correct it.

Offer to pay the £20 penalty fair.

Why did you sign something you didnt read??

 

I know that this information is obviously given in good faith by Daniel9878, but the key point is wrong.

 

Depending on what you are being charged with, they do NOT need to prove you had the intention of avoiding the fare.

 

If you have been charged with avoiding the fare, that is exactly what it will say on the summons. That will be an offence under the Regulation of Railways Act and in that case they do have to prove the intention was not to pay.

 

If you have been charged with a byelaw offence that is different. The offence is of failing to carry a ticket under the rules in force. Unfortunately they do not need to prove you intended to avoid the fare. All they have to do is show that you were there and did not show a valid ticket when you were checked in line with the rules.

 

If you still have the actual pass you could plead not guilty and go to the court hoping they would see your viewpoint, but that would not stop the court finding you guilty of the offence. They might impose a conditional discharge and no costs, but I would not bet on it.

 

The good advice that you have been given is to try to sort it out of court.

Edited January 24, 2009 by Old-CodJA

[timbo58]

I do have to say you were extemely foolish to sign what amounts to a written confession without reading it.

To be fair, you're not the first person to have dones this and you won't be the last.

The RPI (or equivalent) who questioned you was trained to ask certain questions, if you allow yourself to be 'guided' along this route then sign the record as a true statement at the time, then it is highly likely you will be considered for prosection and succesfully prosecuted.

You MUST go to court, not waffle and produce as much relevant information as possible otherwise that signature will damn you, its your only chance frankly.

 

You may have had no intention of avoiding payment (and I believe that as you had a valid railcard at home) BUT you signed a document saying it WAS your intention of avoiding payment by not carrying it!

 

However as old-codja (excellent advice as always -an ex-rpi I shouldnt wonder?) has pointed out they do not need to even prove this they are simply prosecuting you under 'not producing a valid ticket', a lesser offence if this has any comfort.

 

Im my experience (ex RPI-M FGW) you are going to have to be frightfully lucky to have all charges dropped but they will almost certainly be lesser if you attend and argue your case effectively, this all depends on how much you are paid normally -ie how much taking the day off work will cost.