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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
    • Thanks for all the suggestions so far I will amend original WS and send again for review.  While looking at my post at very beginning when I submitted photos of signs around the car park I noticed that it says 5 hours maximum stay while the signage sent by solicitor shows 4 hours maximum stay but mine is related to electric bay abuse not sure if this can be of any use in WS.
    • Not sure what to make of that or what it means for me, I was just about to head to my kip and it's a bit too late for legalise. When is the "expenditure occured"?  When they start spending money to write to me?  Or is this a bad thing (as "harsh" would imply)? When all is said and done, I do not have two beans to rub together, we rent our home and EVERYTHING of value has been purchased by and is in my wife's name and we are not financially linked in any way.  So at least if I can't escape my fate I can at least know that they will get sweet FA from me anyway   edit:  ah.. Sophia Harrison: Time bar decision tough on claimants WWW.SCOTTISHLEGAL.COM Time bar is a very complex area of law in Scotland relating to the period in which a claim for breach of duty can be pursued. The Scottish government...   This explains it like I am 5.  So, a good thing then because creditors clearly know they have suffered a loss the minute I stop paying them, this is why it is "harsh" (for them, not me)? Am I understanding this correctly?  
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The owners of the property must claim them back.

 

The debtor can give a statutory declaration saying the items arent' his/her property and usually the bailiffs should accept that, although in some circumstances they can insist on a stat dec or other evidence from the owners.

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she has the receipt for p.c. but Ive not got a receipt for the telly

for my sins (Lil) i only live a few doors away from my daughter and i know exactly how much she owes the bailiff and keep that amount in the house i have included in this the 2 levy fees but not the fee for the van on the 12 January i will not pay that but will continue to pay this every week from my bank account so if they try anything on i will have the money there to pay them

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"When the levy was initially carried out you signed the document claiming the goods to be owned by yourself. At the point of Jacobs having to remove goods then sufficient proof will have to be shown as to whom the goods belong to prevent the removal."

 

Your bailiff Mr Ekiss left us with no choice but to sign the document or let him remove goods even though we offered him proof of the ownership of the goods, this behaviour was not only unlawful, he has made an invalid levy and has charged excessive fees, these are easily sufficient grounds for a form 4 complaint.

 

This is your last opportunity to correct his error before we take action against him, please note that a copy of this letter is being sent to xxxxx council.

 

or something along those lines.

 

Remember that you MUST send a copy to the council, the head of the council tax department separately, and your councillor, as well as your MP to rack up the embarrassment factor, because you want as many people to know about this as possible.

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i am trying to write a letter to the council and will post it here before i send it but i need a wee bit of help i have counted this a few times my

self but would appreciate someone else checking the figures for me

12 January amount due according to the bailiff £287.58

may/16th dept £190

June/7th visit fee 1 £22.50+vat£3.94

June/9th visit fee 2 £ 16.50 +vat£2.89

July/11th walking possession £11.00 +vat£1.93

July/11th levy fee £27.00+vat£4.73

Jan/12th attendance/van £90.00+vay13.50

total costs £384.71

less payments £129.62

my calculated balance on the 12th January is £255.09

does this add up because there is £32.49 difference from my calculations and the bailiffs i might just add here that the 2 visits they are calming for were to her old property she only had one letter at her new address

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may/16th dept £190

June/7th visit fee 1 £22.50+vat£3.94

June/9th visit fee 2 £ 16.50 +vat£2.89

July/11th walking possession £11.00 +vat£1.93

July/11th levy fee £27.00+vat£4.73

Jan/12th attendance/van £90.00+vay13.50

total costs £384.71

 

Woah there Bessy!

 

Since when have they been allowed to add VAT to these charges???

In fact, there is a thread from last year when a poster spoke to HMRC and got specific details etc stating that they cannot add it on to ct charges.

 

Got to go out for a bit but will try to find it when I get back.

 

I'm sure in the meantime, someone will be along to confirm this.

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Also, can you let us know the year these charges refer to, eg May 2006, 07, 09? Not the ct dates but the dates they have been applied to your account. These are the old charges.

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In fact, there is a thread from last year when a poster spoke to HMRC and got specific details etc stating that they cannot add it on to ct charges

 

Here you go.. have a read.. particularly post #13

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bailiffs-sheriff-officers/162926-baliffs-vat.html

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they were all applied year 07 apart from the attendance/van that was 09

 

another account she had for 06/07 with vat added to there charges on this old account they also added vat to her payments (example debit card charge £2+vat 35 P allpay charge£2+ vat 35p) thats why we changed it to a standing order to avoid these charges

thanks for a very very interesting read

 

HE HE I'm getting all excited now if i can get the vat and unlawful charges removed from both these accounts she wont owe them anything they may owe her( lol)

I'm excited because i have been paying this for her to try and help her out and i want to start paying her rent arrears as soon as i have paid off the bailiffs (thank you for your help very much appreciated)

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Now, see how you've done a complete 360 degree turn around from your first posts :D

 

Ok, so have done some more searching and what the above thread says about VAT not being applicable to council tax bailiff fees is correct (incidentally that goes for business rates, magistrates courts distress warrants, child support arrears and income tax in case anyone else needs to know). This is confirmed in the consumerwiki and tomtubby's site.

 

And the fees, which are set down in law for England and Wales, state the following..

 

BAILIFFS’ CHARGES FOR COUNCIL TAX AND POLL TAX FROM APRIL 2007

 

EVENTCOUNCIL TAX CHARGES

For a visit to your home where no entry is made and a list of goods is not made(i.e. a levy is not made)

£24.50 for a first visit

£18.00 for a second visit

No further charges for further visits

 

For making a levy (i.e. where the bailiffs gain peaceful entry and make a list of goods)

£24.50 for the first £100 or less

4% for the next £400

2.5% for the next £1,500

 

For entering into a 'walking possession' agreement

Flat fee of £12

 

For a 'close possession' agreement (e.g. bailiff stays with the goods)

£15 per day

 

For one attendance with a vehicle with a view to recover goods after the levy has been made under this heading

Reasonable costs incurred

(N.B. only one charge can be made.)

 

For the removal and storage of goods

Reasonable costs incurred

 

For various items relating to sale or proposed sale of the goods (e.g. auctioneers' fees etc)Various fees and expenses

 

 

 

(Taken from the National Debtline website)

 

So, yes, you have been overcharged by the addition of VAT, but actually undercharged on the charges applied.

 

Good grief.. if we know this, how come a certified bailif doesn't?! :eek:

 

I think you need a short and to the point letter pointing out the error of their ways (copied to the council as well of course because by association, they've got it wrong as well ;-))

 

Chris.. if you've got a moment to help..??

Edited by KJD
Poop! That didn't come out very well in the original post!
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I'm trying to sort out what you should have paid, what they've charged, and what the difference is.

 

Are you able list the following..

 

Original debt 1 (and are you sure it's right?);

Original debt 2 (ditto);

Each individual charge they have made;

How much you've paid in total.

 

And to confirm, they arrived and levied on both debts on just one occasion?

 

I know you've done this before, but it would help to have it all set out in one post :)

 

I'll dust off me abacus and see what we can work out, then we can formulate a plan of attack ;)

 

Karen

Edited by KJD
Note to self - stop watching England game whilst posting!
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:oops:dept (1) original dept £192.38 checked with council and is correct

September 06 visit fee1 22.50 +vat£3.94

October 06 visit fee2£16.50+vat£2.89

July 11th 07 walking possession £11+vat£1.93

July 11th 07 levy fee £27+vat£4.73

august 07 payment by debit card £2+vat£0.35p

October 07 payment by allpay £2+vat£0.35p

November 07 payment by debit card £2+vat£0.35p

November 07 payment by allpay£2+vat £2+vat£0.35p

November 07 payment by allpay £2+vat£0.35p thats all the charges on that one total amount paid to bailiff £279.38 account closed

 

dept (2)original dept £190.20 checked with council and is correct

June 07 visit fee1£22.50+vat£3.94

June 07 visit fee2£16.50+vat£2,89

July 11th 07 walking possession £11.00+vat£1.93

July 11th 07 levy fee £27+vat£4.37

January 09 attendance/van£90+vat13.50

on this account up until 11th January 09 she had paid £129.62

 

yes both accounts were levied on the same day 11th July 07 the same goods were used for the levy on both accounts hope this is clear for you because that was hard work (lol) but your help is very much appreciated

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A quick question

 

When the bailiff came and did the wp / levy, had the first one been paid off already? If, not how much was left and therefore added to the 2nd one? Do you know?

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Actually don't worry about that as IMHO it doesn't make any difference.

 

I've worked out the following..

 

Debt 1:

Total £192.38

1st visit £24.50 Sept 06

2nd visit £18.00 Oct 06

 

Total £243.88

 

Debt 2:

Total £190.20

1st visit £24.50 Jun 07

2nd visit £18.00 Jun 07

 

Total £232.70

 

Walking Poss fee - invalid as arrangement already in place

Levy fee - invalid as arrangement already in place and invalid as on goods not belonging to your daughter

Van fee - invalid as arrangement already in place

 

So I make that a total of £476.38

 

You've paid £409.00

 

Which means a balance of £67.58 to pay.

 

The odd fees of 35p you;ve been charged on the debit card and allpay transactions may well stand because altho we've seen a ruling that they can't charge a fee for credit card payments, I don't believe it covers debit cards (they are cheaper to process; in fact 35p is not bad).

 

So if you add that on as well, the total outstanding is £69.33

 

Bearing mind it's getting late, could someone else check my figures / reasonings to see if they agree? :D

Edited by KJD
added dates
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i have already wrote to the bailiff and had a reply

(post 40) so i am now trying to write a letter to the council about the bailiffs charges i also sent an e-mail to my mp about 3 weeks ago got no reply from him the allpay and debit card charges were £2 the vat was 35p

thanks again for your help

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i have already wrote to the bailiff and had a reply

(post 40) so i am now trying to write a letter to the council about the bailiffs charges i also sent an e-mail to my mp about 3 weeks ago got no reply from him the allpay and debit card charges were £2 the vat was 35p

thanks again for your help

 

Ok so we can drop the £1.75, so the outstanding amount is £67.58.

 

I appreciate you've already written to all and sundry about this, but I think another one, detailling the charges, events, etc, should be sent to the bailiff, council (both the ct department and complaints), your mp, et al. We can state the events, the errors, your position and that's that... no more faffing about by them. They accept it, or all bets are off!

 

I'm not the best at writing letters (tend to ramble on a bit!! as you can see!!) but I'll give it a go if you like. Only it'll have to be a bit later as am at work at the moment. I'll draft one up, post it on here and see what the consensus is.

 

I know you're getting weary of all this, but if you don't nip this behaviour in the bud, it'll go on and on. These blooming people sh be content that they have an arrangement and that you've been sticking to it. The number of posts that are coming on here every day with more and more queries about bailiffs show that times are tough. You have been nothing more than accomodating to them, and it's time they knew it!

 

Rant over..

 

Let me know what you think :)

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Okay so have a couple of questions for you before we try to do this letter..

 

  1. the arrangement to pay by standing order - when and how was that set up, for each debt?
  2. you say there are 2 levies, both done the same day. What are on the levies - just the pc & tv? And are both items on each levy or one on 1st levy, one on 2nd levy?
  3. you have written to the bailiffs, the council & your MP. We've seen the reply from Jacobs to your 1st letter. Did they reply to your one with the proof re the pc? And have the council or MP replied at all?
  4. you say the 1st debt has been settled / account closed. Do you know when that was?
  5. has the bailiff at any time given your daughter a copy of the fees / charges?

I'm in my other role of 'Mums Taxi' this evening so may be hopping on & off the site a bit

 

Karen

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OK so another quick question for the experienced CAGgers.

 

This lady is in Wales and as far as I can see I believe the amended regulations only apply to England. In which case, the originial 1992 fees still apply in Wales. I've picked this up by looking at both rules (see the headings at the top) and also in one of Jacobs Bailiffs own newsletters, which said that altho the amended regulations were being implemented in England, Wales still had to put them in place.

 

The 2 rules are here..

The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992

 

The Council Tax and Non-Domestic Rating (Amendment) (England) Regulations 2006

 

Anyone any got any other information on this??

 

(Of course, if this is the case, Hallowitch, your fees exc VAT were right, which will bring down the total I posted above :))

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Using correct info..

 

 

Debt 1:

Total £192.38

1st visit £22.50 Sept 06

2nd visit £16.00 Oct 06

 

Total £230.38

 

Debt 2:

Total £190.20

1st visit £22.50 Jun 07

2nd visit £16.00 Jun 07

 

Total £228.70

 

Walking Poss fee - invalid as arrangement already in place

Levy fee - invalid as arrangement already in place and invalid as on goods not belonging to your daughter

Van fee - invalid as arrangement already in place

 

So I make that a total of £459.58

 

You've paid £409.00

 

Which means a balance of £50.58 to pay.

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