TMA v Natwest

[hellhasnofury]

Serious Data Protection issue - NatWest

 

Update regarding my outstanding Personal Loan with Natwest. I made a CCA request and they have just responded today (request made 29 August!).

 

Natwest forward to me a covering letter which states: Under Section 77 there is no obligation for the Bank to provide you with a copy of the original agreement bearing your signature. A true copy does not need to contact any persoal info relating to you as the debtor nor does it need to include a signature box or dates of signatures'

 

Well well - what they have sent is obviously a copy of the loan document but not the original copy with any signatures on there. What do I do now then as they obviously don't have the original document?

 

Also attached with the letter and agreement is a schedule of arrears - WHICH RELATES TO A DIFFERENT CUSTOMER!! It gives me the other customers name, full address, account number and sort code!!

 

Then goes on to list date of loan, amount of loan, installments and current balance. Then a list of missed payments -signed and dated at the bottom by a Natwest employee!

 

So taking the Data Protection Act into account I now have full account details relating to someone who lives in Doncaster - millions of miles away from me. Naughty naughty - I'm sure the FOS, FAS would like to know about this.

 

Obviously this is disgusting but I'm also now wondering who actually has my Schedule of Arrears which would also include my address, account number and sort code?

 

So two issues - any advice on what to do because this is quite a serious issue in my eyes!

 

Thanks!!

 

TMA

 

Hello TMA,

 

Well well, the old we do not have to provide a signed copy, mmh ok but you will need to produce it in court:wink: Report them to the Office of Fair Trading and the Financial Services Authority. They need to prove evidence of a credit agreement that is signed by yourself that is enforcable

 

Now regarding the schedule of arrears:-D

 

how careless are they being with their customers data:rolleyes:

 

Write to them stating the errors of their ways, and this serious breach of the dpa and inform them that you have sent the schedule of arrears to the Information Commissioers Office for their safe keeping and also informing the ICO of their serious breach of the Data Protection Act.

 

Maybe also send the original owner of the data a little message regarding this blatant breach of dpa, they may be able to claim compensation form the bank:-D and if you find out where your's has gone, you can claim too:-D

 

Report them immediately to the Information Commissioners Office:mad:

 

M&S did this with me and I bet there were a few swearwords round their office.

[alanalana]

Hello TMA and I see HHNF is viewing:D

 

Do you want to do this HHNF?

 

aa

 

PS Slow off the mark as usual

 

aa

[alanalana]

HHNF what can I say,

 

Hello TMA,

 

Well well, the old we do not have to provide a signed copy, mmh ok but you will need to produce it in court:wink: Report them to the Office of Fair Trading and the Financial Services Authority. They need to prove evidence of a credit agreement that is signed by yourself that is enforcable

 

Now regarding the schedule of arrears:grin:

 

how careless are they being with their customers data:rolleyes:

 

Write to them stating the errors of their ways, and this serious breach of the Data Protection Act and inform them that you have sent the schedule of arrears to the Information Commissioers Office for their safe keeping and also informing the Information Commissioners Office of their serious breach of the Data Protection Act.

 

Maybe also send the original owner of the data a little message regarding this blatant breach of Data Protection Act, they may be able to claim compensation form the bank:grin: and if you find out where your's has gone, you can claim too:grin:

 

Report them immediately to the Information Commissioners Office:evil:

 

M&S did this with me and I bet there were a few swearwords round their office.

 

Superb post;) Someone is going to be in a little bit of trouble with this one:grin:

 

aa

[hellhasnofury]

Thanks AA,

 

You know how I get with the good old westy:wink: Can't help myself:-D

 

I truely love it when they muff it up, so to speak:lol:

 

TMA,

 

regarding your newly printed off ca. That in my opinion is just a standard template ca that they have printed off, it makes absolutely no reference to you. As you on the ca could be me (I've probably got one the same somewhere) AA, Joe bloggs, uncle whatshisname and all.

 

Have a look at it carefully for little things like, the charge for penalty fees:wink: That is normally a big give away.

 

You need to pick, pick pick away at them. There really are not that clever:-D

[TMAngel]

Thought you'd both like the NatWest mistake!! I shall do as you say and send all those letters off tomorrow - someone will get fired for that hopefully!

 

Anyway here is what they basically sent me. As HHNF said the CCA has literally been printed off their computer or once again created. It does have my name and prevous address on from 2003 when the loan was taken out but has no signature and I can't even see a date on there - basically it could be anyone's agreement!

 

Have a look at what they sent and it beggars belief that they could be so stupid to send me some chappies bank details from Doncaster - ooh how I can't wait to send those letters off!:D

 

TMA

Edited October 21, 2008 by TMAngel
removed photobucket - personal details not properly marked out oops!

[alanalana]

Hello TMA,

 

Just a quick post to say I would remove all photobucket from previous post and make the names addresses and all other details more illegible.

 

Then re-post. I would suggest a black permanent marker should do the job.

 

aa

[hellhasnofury]

Hello TMA,

 

Just a quick post to say I would remove all photobucket from previous post and make the names addresses and all other details more illegible.

 

Then re-post. I would suggest a black permanent marker should do the job.

 

aa

 

Hey AA, your getting quicker, beat me this time:eek::lol:

[alanalana]

HHNF we never sleep just slow sometimes:grin:

 

TMA I have more to post on the first Photobucket item re the Consumer Credit (cancellation notices and copies of documents) regulations 1983.

 

I have the extracts for you and hopefully a retaliatory response. HHNF can perhaps vet the coming post;)

 

aa

[TMAngel]

Thanks to both of you again.

 

I'm out with work this afternoon and tomorrow so it will be Thursday now anyway before i can get the letters sent off. But I just can't wait!

 

TMA

[TMAngel]

Hi AA

I'm now back in Natwest mode after my long working day in Belfast on Wednesday!

 

Ready when you are for that response - I'll hopefully have time this weekend and Monday to get all those letters together - shall enjoy sending them:-D

 

TMA

[alanalana]

Hello TMA,

 

Firstly you may have missed this post from me on 20th Oct.

 

Hello TMA,

 

Just a quick post to say I would remove all photobucket from previous post and make the names addresses and all other details more illegible.

 

Then re-post. I would suggest a black permanent marker should do the job.

 

aa

 

aa

[alanalana]

Hello TMA,

 

It does have my name and prevous address on from 2003 when the loan was taken out but has no signature and I can't even see a date on there - basically it could be anyone's agreement!

 

Have a look at what they sent and it beggars belief that they could be so stupid to send me some chappies bank details from Doncaster - ooh how I can't wait to send those letters off!:grin::grin:

 

With reference to that response.

 

I have been delving around to see the legalities of the "True Copy" of the agreement you have been sent. It would appear that the copy would be acceptable under your CCA request under section 77 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, but check this out first........

 

Is My Agreement Enforceable - Useful

 

I have not been able to see a copy of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983, as mentioned in their letter despite a lot of searching.

 

But I have found this from a letter response from a question to the Office of Fair Trading.....

 

A ‘true copy’ of an agreement principally consists of the terms and conditions of the agreement and the statutory content of the agreement. The name, address and signature of the debtor do not have to be provided. Additionally, the creditor must supply the total sum paid under the agreement by the debtor; the total sum which has become payable under the agreement but remains unpaid; and the total sum which is to become payable under the agreement by the debtor (the latter two must include the various amounts comprised in that total sum and the date when each is/was due). However, the copy must be a copy. It need not be exact on immaterial points, but it cannot be a conjectured reconstruction. If the trader has no original copy, the trader will have difficulty showing that he has complied with the regulation by supplying a ‘true copy’, since nobody would know what was in the original. When the trader comes to enforce the debt in court, he needs to have a signed copy of the agreement in order to enforce. As the law stands currently he cannot otherwise.

 

The thing is if you proceed to Court action they would have to provide the actual agreement signed by yourself or if they produced a copy it would have to be within the terms of the Civil Evidence Act 1995 as mentioned in an earlier post, and it would have to show your signature.

 

I would still tend to send off letters pointing out the serious breach of the Data Protection Act 1998 to the Information Commissioners Office and the chap whos information they have breached.

 

Sorry I could not help you more.

 

aa

 

[alanalana]

Hey TMA,

 

Please disregard my Post 69 I see you have changed the photobucket links.

 

aa

[TMAngel]

HHNF and AA - The letters will be in the post today - cannot wait for the responses!

 

One thing I am now unsure of and need your fab advice once again. Regarding my current loan for which they have not sent a signed copy of the CCA so in my eyes this is now not enforceable: They have already agreed to refund PPI paid to date including the interest, and also credit the loan account to bring it in line with what it should have been had the PPI not been taken out.

 

Now so far I've not agreed to this because they won't refund by cheque due to the arrears and will only credit to the loan account and I was also waiting the outcome of the CCA request:)

 

Where do I now stand if the actual agreement is unenforceable? I can send the same letter that I did with the unenforceable Credit Card but I don't want to accept PPI refund to be credited to the loan account if its not actually enforceable - confused.com!!

 

So do I do the following:

 

1) Send the unenforceable letter re my personal loan and stating that I shall now withold payment

+

2 ) Request that the PPI refund be returned by cheque due to it being unenforceable

Or

3) Request that the PPI refund be made as a Full and Final Settlement on the Personal Loan account... this would be fantastic as I would in effect be debt free!!

 

MMM come on I know how you all love a good fight with the nastywest ha ha!:grin:

 

TMA

[alanalana]

Hello TMA,

 

One thing I am now unsure of and need your fab advice once again. Regarding my current loan for which they have not sent a signed copy of the CCA so in my eyes this is now not enforceable:

 

TMA

 

they are not required to send a signed copy, just a true copy including the prescribed terms and conditions please see this not sure if I have already posted to you?

 

A ‘true copy’ of an agreement principally consists of the terms and conditions of the agreement and the statutory content of the agreement. The name, address and signature of the debtor do not have to be provided. Additionally, the creditor must supply the total sum paid under the agreement by the debtor; the total sum which has become payable under the agreement but remains unpaid; and the total sum which is to become payable under the agreement by the debtor (the latter two must include the various amounts comprised in that total sum and the date when each is/was due). However, the copy must be a copy. It need not be exact on immaterial points, but it cannot be a conjectured reconstruction. If the trader has no original copy, the trader will have difficulty showing that he has complied with the regulation by supplying a ‘true copy’, since nobody would know what was in the original. When the trader comes to enforce the debt in court, he needs to have a signed copy of the agreement in order to enforce. As the law stands currently he cannot otherwise.

I hope this clears up this point for you?

 

The agreement would be unenforceable under the terms found here.....

 

Is My Agreement Enforceable - Useful

 

This is from the debt collection industry forum stickies.

 

1) Send the unenforceable letter re my personal loan and stating that I shall now withold payment You could be jumping the gun on this one. The fact the copy you have been sent does not necessarily mean it is unenforceable. It would depend on the document including all of the prescribed terms actually within the CCA.

+

2 ) Request that the PPI refund be returned by cheque due to it being unenforceable You can request the cheque be returned to you directly or use your para 3 the choice will be yours.

Or

3) Request that the PPI refund be made as a Full and Final Settlement on the Personal Loan account... this would be fantastic as I would in effect be debt free!!

 

MMM come on I know how you all love a good fight with the nastywest ha ha!:grin:

 

 

 

Whichever course of action you decide upon ensure you insist on written confirmation of your decision by return post and keep the letter safe.

 

Other inputs to this will be more than welcome before TMA commits.

aa

[hellhasnofury]

Hello TMA,

 

 

 

TMA

 

they are not required to send a signed copy, just a true copy including the prescribed terms and conditions please see this not sure if I have already posted to you?

 

A ‘true copy’ of an agreement principally consists of the terms and conditions of the agreement and the statutory content of the agreement. The name, address and signature of the debtor do not have to be provided. Additionally, the creditor must supply the total sum paid under the agreement by the debtor; the total sum which has become payable under the agreement but remains unpaid; and the total sum which is to become payable under the agreement by the debtor (the latter two must include the various amounts comprised in that total sum and the date when each is/was due). However, the copy must be a copy. It need not be exact on immaterial points, but it cannot be a conjectured reconstruction. If the trader has no original copy, the trader will have difficulty showing that he has complied with the regulation by supplying a ‘true copy’, since nobody would know what was in the original. When the trader comes to enforce the debt in court, he needs to have a signed copy of the agreement in order to enforce. As the law stands currently he cannot otherwise.

 

 

I hope this clears up this point for you?

 

The agreement would be unenforceable under the terms found here.....

 

Is My Agreement Enforceable - Useful

 

This is from the debt collection industry forum stickies.

 

 

 

Whichever course of action you decide upon ensure you insist on written confirmation of your decision by return post and keep the letter safe.

 

Other inputs to this will be more than welcome before TMA commits.

 

aa

 

Yes AA I agree with you regarding the fact that under a 77/78 request, they have jumped on the bank wagon, by sending a print off of what your credit agreement looked like:mad:

 

But to enforce the agreement they would have to produce the original agreement signed by yourself in court.

[TMAngel]

Thanks both. 42Man I sent off the letter that you suggested on 13 October and have received no response as yet and the 21 days are now up.

 

Where do I go from here as they still haven't sent a copy of the original agreement or acknowledged my letter?

 

Do I write again ?

 

I also have some other issues but will create news threads so it does't get confusing!

 

Thanks

TMA

[Paintball]

Hi Guest ...

 

Having a good read are you?

[alanalana]

Hello all,

 

Firstly TMA,

 

In my other thread I've explained that I've just been offered a refund of over £9k from NatWest which they insist on taking off my loan balance.

 

Basically my personal loan and credit card are managed by Wescot and for over 2 years I've been paying Wescot 2 amounts by standing order in order to clear these balances.

 

I have just called Wescot for a Settlement Figure as I was going to negotiate that the £9k refund be in full and final settlement of this debt.

 

Well, I've been told today by Wescot that NatWest withdrew this account from them on 7 August and I need to cancel the monthly standing order to Wescot as they no longer look after this account. So what's going on, why would Natwest take it back from Wescot? As hhnf states below they are in breach of the Data Protection Act 1998 and probably the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

Has this happened to anyone else?

 

I'm a little worried that because I've heard nothing about this from NatWest that if I do cancel the SO to Wescot Natwest will start chasing me for payments etc. But I am confused as to why they would remove from Wescot? I would ask for written confirmation about this from NatWest and perhaps ask why they failed to inform you about the action they have taken in taking the account back from a DCA.

 

Any help please?

 

And HHNF,

 

Hello,

 

Just found this thread and I must confess to have nearly choked on my cup of tea.

 

This indeed sounds extremely favourable in your case:grin:

 

They have taken back the account from westcot who they instructed to pursue you for the payments. Obviously you have been defaulted on your credit file.

 

THEY HAVE TAKEN IN BACK, BECAUSE THEY ARE IN BREACH OF THE DATA PROTECTION ACT, BY GIVING YOUR DETAILS TO THIRD PARTIES, WITHOUT A CREDIT AGREEMENT, One in the eye for the good old Nasty:razz:

 

Maybe after all this time, they are educating themselves, as to what they can do under consumer law.

 

You need to be quoting all of this new revelations in your letter.

 

Please do report them immediately to the FSA, OFT and trading standards, the more black marks against them and they will be under investigation by the enforcement authorities.:grin:

 

Oops sorry nearly forgot to mention do not let Wescot away with this, they are pursued you, with no legal right to. Send them a nice little harassment letter

 

And remember to insist that Westcot repay any payments made by you since 7 August When Natwest withdrew the account. (It could be 4 months rebate :Ddue, if Westcot took payments whilst not in charge of the account)

 

Best though to get all this in a letter from them if you haven't already, phone calls can be denied.

 

Good Luck:-D

 

aa

Edited November 11, 2008 by alanalana
spelling

[TMAngel]

Hi aa

I've already requested confirmation from Natwest as to why the accounts have been transferred back from Wescot but guess what no reply!

 

I was on a day's holiday yesterday and spent most of the day getting letters ready to be posted so you know what I'm glad you posted on this thread today because you've reminded me to chase them up!

 

That's another letter that I shall do and get in today's post:)

 

I've already requested info from Wescot and they will not provide me with anything or confirmation etc so think a nice little breach of the DPA letter will be sent to them as well.

 

I'm in the mood for these letters today so will also write again to Wescot to confirm where the payments have gone and also perhaps make another DPA complaint to all the official bodies.

 

Bring it on - it just drives me up the wall because my patience is now running thin waiting around for answers arrgghh!

 

TMA

[Paintball]

Good luck TM ... I think someone is interested enough to be lurking on this thread though as a Guest

[TMAngel]

I managed to claim bank charges from Natwest in 2007 for my Advantage Gold Account. I've got other threads re PPI refunds etc but am now looking at the charges and default that was placed on my Current Plus Account.

 

Just a quick outline of how the charges quickly mounted up on this acc.

 

Balance on 1 April 2005 was £341.58 Overdrawn.

All Direct Debits then started to get refused.

Balance on 3 May 2005 was £745.12 Overdrawn due to £503 of charges!

Balance on 31 May 2005 was £1019.67 Overdrawn due to £263 of charges!

 

I'm pretty sure the agreed Overdraft was either £200 or £250 because looking at my statements I've been allowed to go to £250 many times before.

 

Also during the period 1 April - 3 May 2005 I actually credited £110 into the account so if the charges hadn't been made the balance would have reduced to £241.

 

On 31 May my account was then placed on hold. I was then defaulted on 21 October 2005 and charged £30 for this default notice.

 

From Feb 2006 I set up a Standing Order with Wescot but I didn't realise I was still being charged interest on this account monthly up until it was paid off in July 2007. I was also charged a monthly £28 Charge from May - December 2005 even though I wasn't using the account.

 

With all the interest and charges added from May 2005 the highest the balance reached was £1546 overdrawn!

 

So overall a £341 debt ended up costing me £1546 plus a Default due to all the charges and interest on these charges.

 

Me doesn't quite think this is right so where do I go now? I really want to get the charges refunded and the default removed - do I stand in a good position and how do I go about it due to the court case etc.

 

Any letters, advice and legal jargon would be fantastic!!

 

TMA

[steven4064]

Hi TMA

 

Start the process as you did before - the standard letters have default removal as an option. However, stop at the LBA stage as all court cases for current acco8unt charges are being stayed until after the appeal by the banks in the test case.

[TMAngel]

Hi. Finally received a reply from Natwest re my Credit Card CCA.

 

They state that 'under S78(1) they have complied with the statutory requirements by providing a 'true copy' of the CCA...

 

Then they relate to 'Reg 3(2) and 7(1)(b) or the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Reg 1983. Particularly 3© which permits the copy agreement not to show signatures or personal details that may have appeared on the application part of the document'

 

State 'There is no statutory requirement under the Act for us to ever give a copy to a customer with a signature on it'.

 

Basically state they see no reason for further communication, do not accept my Section 10 of the DPA or beleive they have breached CCA.

 

I have requested a copy of my original agreement but have not reveived anything as yet.

 

So they are still going to pursue for the money as the account is not in 'dispute' so i must continue to make the payments to Wescot. Also say that i agreed to processing the data when I signed the Credit Agreement in Sept 2000 - prove it then!!!

 

Mmm so basically any debtor could 'create' an agreement and we have to pay in full, have defaults against our name etc!

 

So do I just wait and chase up a copy of the original agreement - and if they don't produce it what then?

 

TMA

[Kraken1]

The exclusions noted (the stuff that needn't be on a true copy) seems about right.

 

Because you have a history of paying this I think you might be a bit stuck. Not sure the dispute angle (on the grounds of a cca) will fly.

 

Courts have been known to infer that there was an agreement (and therefore liability for the debt) based on the balance of probabilities; generally because they think that if you've been paying for x amount of time the debt must be yours, irrespective of whether the creditor can produce the actual agreement.