HSBC and a blank agreement form

[Iceman54]

In July I cca'd HSBC, after some correspondence over my typed signature, I wrote them the excellent " account in dispute" letter from this site.

Yesterday I got their response

 

A blank credit card agreement form.............yes a blank one not even my name and address let alone the statutory terms, or my signature or any dates, their reasoning is as follows

 

"Section 78 (1) of the CCA 1974 requires us to provide a copy of the executed agreement if any. Regulation 3(2) of the CCA (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 allows that certain items may be omitted from copies including the signature box and signature. Therefore the copy of the Executed Agreement we must supply is a copy, but need not be a photocopy of the signed Agreement. Regulation 7 of those regulations also requires us to provide a copy of the Executed Agreement, as varied, where there is power to vary the Terms of the Agreement, which there is with your Card Agreement, and that power has beenexercised to vary the Agreement, which again is the case with your Agreement."

 

Can someone point me in the direction of a suitably worded reply as to me they seem to be making the law up as they go along

 

They did include other stuff like original terms, latest terms, notice of variation and a signed statement of account............all which seem pretty meaningless without the original agreement.

[creditcardmug]

What all this tells you is that they dont have anything that would stand up in court

[ScarletPimpernel]

I agree; they know they have no chance, but will probably persist anyway. As long as you stick to your guns you will win.

[Pinky69]

They are talking through a hole in their trousers. Tell them that what you require is a true copy of the credit agreement and until such times as they supply one there are not by law permitted to pursue you for payment. They will of course but you can then ignore them

[Iceman54]

I am in the process of drafting a letter to them outlining the situation (OK am cobbling together various bits of letters found on this site )

 

I have noticed they are still charging me interest and late payment fees, so when does an account become in dispute?, is it the day they receive my cca request or after the first 12 days?

 

Many thanks in advance

[TheChancellor]

I tell them it's been in dispute from the date which is the 13th day after they signed for it.(12+2)

[Iceman54]

Thanks very much

[ScarletPimpernel]

Whatever you write to them, they will respond with a long diatribe about how the law allows them to send you a blank form, so they've fulfilled their obligations, and would you now just send them lots of money.

 

You may find my thread, which details how I dealt with HSBC and the same blank agreement scenario, of interest.

[Iceman54]

Thanks, very interesting reading....... looks like I should prepare for a long drawn out battle over this one then

[42man]

May I ask when the original agreement was supposedly signed ? If it was in the last 6 years then you could send them this....

 

Dear xxxx,

 

Thank you for your letter dated xxxx, however I find it difficult to believe that you have mislaid such an important document as the copy of the credit agreement.

 

As I am sure you are aware; especially with the recent highlighted cases of 'lost' data, which seems to be a serious issue I was led to believe that you are legally obliged to keep copy agreements for a 6 year period. As I’m sure you are aware, this 6 year period starts from the closing of an account not the opening of one.

 

 

It would appear that you have failed in your obligations to comply with the various anti money laundering regulations in not keeping such documents. This, as I’m sure you are aware, is a very serious offence.

 

I now require the balance of this account to be returned to zero.

 

Please note you may also consider this letter a statutory notice under Section 10 of the Data Protection Act to cease processing any data in relation to this account with immediate effect. This means you must remove all information regarding this account from your own internal records and from my records with any credit reference agencies. Should you refuse to comply, you must within 14 days provide me with a detailed breakdown of your reasoning behind continuing to process my data. It is not sufficient to simply state that you have a ‘legal right’, you must outline your reasoning in this matter and state upon which legislation this reasoning depends.

 

Should you fail to respond within 14 days, I will expect that this means you agree to remove all such data.

 

Furthermore, you should be aware that a creditor is not permitted to take any action against an account whilst it remains in dispute. The lack of a credit agreement is a very clear dispute and as such the following would apply:

• You may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.
  
• You may not add any further interest or charges to the account.
  
• You may not pass the account to any third party.
  
• You may not register any information in respect of the account with any of the credit reference agencies.
  
• You may not issue a default notice related to the account.
  

Please be aware, the CCA 1974 is very clear that a default can only be issued for breach of a valid, regulated agreement. As there is no agreement a default cannot be lawfully issued as no valid, regulated agreement has been breached.

I would ask that you review this account and respond favourably within 14 days of the date of this letter. Failure to do so will result in me reporting this matter to The Financial Crime Branch of HM Treasury and any other authorities as I see fit.

 

I look forward to your reply in due course.

 

Yours faithfully

--------------------------------

If however it was over 6 years ago then send them this....

Dear Sirs,

 

Account no xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

 

Re: my request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

Thank you for your recent letter sent to me, the contents of which are noted. I appreciate your quick response to my original letter. However, the reply received by me does not fulfil your requirements under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

The Act demands that I be supplied with a true copy of any properly executed credit agreement that exists in relation to the above account. I may ask for this on demand providing that a fee of £1.00 is paid. This fee was sent with my original letter.

 

My request remains outstanding. An unsigned credit agreement with no personal details on it, like the one you sent in your reply, does not constitute a true copy of any credit agreement that may or may not have been signed by me on the opening of this account. A blank agreement neither confirms that I am liable for any alleged debt to you, nor gives me any chance to evaluate whether any original agreement was ‘properly executed’.

 

I still require you to send me a true copy of the original credit agreement that you allege exists. As you will know, under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, a judge is not permitted to make any enforcement order unless the creditor can provide a true signed copy of the original credit agreement. This means that unless you can produce such an agreement, this alleged debt is not enforceable in law.

 

You had until xx/xx.2008 to provide me with the true copy I requested. You are now in default of my request. Any account I hold with you is now in legal dispute. Whilst the account remains in dispute, you are not permitted to ask for any payment, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you. Furthermore, whilst the dispute remains, you are not entitled to charge any interest on the account, nor make any further charges to the account. Additionally, you are not entitled to register any information on this account with any credit reference agency.

 

To register information with a credit reference agency, you must have written consent from the customer to collate and share such information. This consent is given in the form of a signed credit agreement, so until you produce such an agreement, you may not do this.

 

The requirement for consent to share data is a clear requirement of the Data Protection Act 1998. any such attempts to share my data without my consent will be met with a complaint to the Information Commissioners Office

 

The time limits, which are laid down in the Consumer Credit (Prescribed Periods for Giving Information) Regulations 1983 are clear. You must supply an executed credit agreement within 12 + 2 working days of a proper CCA request. If you fail to comply with a legitimate request the account enters a default situation. If you continue to try to enforce this debt your conduct will be reported to the Office of Fair Trading, the Financial Ombudsman and Trading Standards. Any investigation undertaken by them may affect your ability to offer credit in the future.

 

To sum up, I will not be making any further payments to you until you provide me with the document I have requested. Whilst you remain in default of my request, you are not permitted to take any action against this account. This includes adding further charges and passing any information to the credit reference agencies.

 

As you not have any signed credit agreement in relation to this alleged debt, I expect this matter to be closed immediately.

 

I look forward to your reply.

 

Yours faithfully

[Iceman54]

unfortunately the card was originally taken out in 1997......... so, sadly that line of irritating them wont be valid........... more's the pity lol

[Iceman54]

Many thanks to everyone for their help I have used 42 Man's second letter as the basis of my response.

 

Will keep you posted when I get a reply

[Iceman54]

I got a response from HSBC today as suggested earlier it is the usual, "we have fulfilled our obligations under the cca blah blah blah now please send us loads of money or we will pass your account on to a debt collection agency" (trembling in my boots here..........oh not wearing any boots..oh well)

 

they go on to say that I may escalate the matter to their Q A team and eventually to the FOS

 

what is my next response?

 

Many thanks to all that are helping on this and many other threads

[42man]

Edit this and send recorded and also send it to the Chairman of the bank.

 

Dear sir/madam

 

I will make my position final, you have NOT complied with my legal request for a copy of my credit agreement. A blank agreement such as the one you have sent me does NOT conform under the Consumer Credit Act 1974. If you pass this debt on whilst in dispute, this is in breach of the Banking Code and the OFT's guidelines on debt collection.

 

When it gets to a legal stage and the matter of costs, I will be showing a judge both my letters and your responses.

 

I hope this makes matters crystal clear.

[Iceman54]

Well they have passed it on to their minions at Metropolitan Collection Services, anyone got a nice threatening letter I can send them back, also another one for HSBC threatening them with everything as they are clearly in breach of several Acts of parliament and various voluntary codes

 

Many Thanks

[ScarletPimpernel]

Frankly, as my experience demonstrates, it's not really worth responding to HSBC's risible letters, whichever letterhead they are using.

 

Send a letter headed 'Final response' setting out your position - that there is no agreement (and therefore no enforceable debt), that they cannot therefore go to Court, and any suggesting of legal action is vexatious, and that you will not enter into further correspondence. Then ignore (but keep) everything else they send. When DG threaten Court action, send them a copy of your final response and suggest that if they are stupid enough to issue a claim, you'll bring HSBC's non-compliance with the law and rgulatory rules to the Court's attention.

[Iceman54]

As usual many thanks SP

[Iceman54]

Ok have sent them this:

 

Dear Sirs,

Thank you for your letter dated dd/mm/yyyy but only received today.

 

I must admit that I am rather bemused as to why this account has been passed to you, as it is in dispute with XXXX and has been since

Not only is this a breach of OFT collection guidelines, but also in breach of the CCA 74.

 

As XXXX are now in default of my Consumer Credit Act request, I consider this account to be in SERIOUS DISPUTE.

 

As you are aware while my Consumer Credit Act request remains in default enforcement action is NOT permitted, under s127 this constitutes a complete defence at law.

 

Now I would respectfully suggest that this account is returned to the XXX for resolution of these defaults and breaches, as DCA cannot lawfully pursue any enforcement activities.

 

If DCA chooses to ignore my dispute and attempt enforcement, I will initiate legal action and file reports with the appropriate authorities, including, but not limited to, Trading Standards, Office of Fair Trading, Information Commissioners Office, Financial Ombudsman Service and possible court action.

Please note that I will only discuss this matter in writing and will not speak to any representative of DCA by phone.

 

Furthermore, should it be your intention to arrange a “doorstep call”, please be advised that under OFT rules, you can only visit me at my home if you make an appointment and I have no wish to make an appointment with you.

 

There is only an implied license under English Common Law for people to be able to visit me on my property without express permission; the postman and people asking for directions etc (Armstrong v. Sheppard and Short Ltd [1959] 2 Q.B. per Lord Evershed M.R.). Therefore take note that I revoke license under Common Law for you, or your representatives to visit me at my property and if you do so, then you will be liable to damages for a tort of trespass and action will be taken, including but not limited to, police attendance. I hope that this will not be necessary and an acceptable solution can be accomplished.

 

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter.

I look forward to hearing from you in writing.

 

Yours faithfully

 

 

Which is just a modified template that I found on another thread

 

 

let's see what they make of that then hey?

[Iceman54]

Ok after 2 letters 2 Metroppolitan no replies........... they have now passed it on to DG solicitors.. who just happen to share the exact same postcode as metropolitan.............. replied with the usual " quite frankly I am bemused" letter added the law society to the people i will complain to

 

added the S10 data protection notice

 

but added

 

"if you have any difficulty understanding the contents of this letter please consult an adult"

 

Me bad lol