HBOS and OH's card debt

[citizenB]

[citizenB]

Goodness Lexis, you were up late or early depending on how you look at it.

 

Looks good to me.

[lexis200]

Okay, I think the letter above crossed with their one, below.

 

'Thank you for your letter dated 7th October.

 

At present we are unable to provide historic terms and conditions for the above account. Should these become available in the future we will forward them to you.

 

We are not obliged to provide all 3 items that you have requested. Therefore the copy application form and the current terms and conditions sent to you together with our covering letter dated 16th September fulfil the request made under section 78.'

 

Am I right in reading that they're screwed?

 

They have no historic terms, they sent an illegible application with no prescribed terms, and they are stating that they don't need to send the '3 items' I asked for. This in itself has confused me a little, as I've read through both the CCA request, and the subsequent letter informing them it wasn't acceptable, and neither mentions 3 items, only the agreement and the terms. I think this is them knowing they're meant to send the agreement, the original terms and statement of account, but knowing they haven't complied and trying to do a bit of damage control.

 

Do I just need to write and get their final response now so that I can take this further, as we're obviously going nowhere fast? Or, can I do a letter intimating that as we both know the debt is unenforceable, they'd do best to zero the balance and remove any data, then if that doesn't work taking it further?

[citizenB]

I think the 3 items would refer to

 

Agreement

Original t&cs at time of account opening and

Current t&cs.

 

Yes, you need a final response letter from them so you can take it further.

 

Something short and sweet, however, if you believe the letters might have crossed and the letter above is not in response to the last letter you sent, it might be worth waiting. Have you tried track and trace to discover when your letter was received by them and when was this current letter from them dated ? Okey dokey, I have just seen their letter is in response to yours dated 7th OCTOBER ???? not exactly rushing to answer you are they ?? Although again, they could be replying to both couldnt they ?? Check track n trace see when they received your letter dated 13th November.

 

 

 

Dear Sirs,

 

Reference your letter dated......

 

It would appear that you are not prepared to investigate my complaints fully and to my satisfaction.

 

Please therefore cofirm to me in writing that you have given your Final response in order for me to escalate my complaint to the Financial Ombudsman.

 

Etc, etc.

[lexis200]

Hi CB

 

I'll have a look, but the letter was received by me on the 14th/15th, so they'd have had to work pretty quickly to get one out on the same day. Mind you, it was very short so anything's possible...

[angel_1]

hiya lexis,

 

wanted to see how you doing today, im having a bit of nightmare week with other stuff, you know life kids hubby bills, food, doing the dinner, and now off to do my volunteering stuff, i hope that life gets better soon,

 

have posted on maccasmum thread after you, lol and i hope you didnt mind me saying we are support/friends on here,,,, wanted to reassure maccasmum a little

 

anyway speak to you laters , still doing those damn fos forms, arghhhhhhhhhhhh but will get them finished today because i just keep hoping the post dont bring nothing i cant handle from our mutual friends,

 

have fun ciao for now MAZ

[lexis200]

Okay, reply received from OFT. As expected, they can't do anything, but I'm actually quite impressed with the letter. They do seem to be trying to explain things clearly, and also, it appears to give very helpful information which I'm sure can be incorporated into correspondence to aid us!

 

They cover what must be included in a 'true copy', and that the bank/owner has no recourse through the courts if it's not up to scratch.

 

They also state

 

We note your concerns that in the absence of a copy of the original agreement someone's liability for a debt can only lead to further query. However in circumstances like this we would view it as unfair practice under section 25(2) (d) of the Act and relevant to licence fitness if a trader failed to investigate and/or provide details as appropriate when a debt is queried or disputed.

 

that section is this btw - engaged in business practices appearing to the Director to be deceitful or oppressive, or otherwise unfair or improper (whether unlawful or not).

 

 

All things considered, I don't think it was a bad response. Not helpful per se, but certainly appearing to be written in order to help rather than fob off.

[lexis200]

Also

 

No reply to CPR request, however we have been getting calls from Robinson Way. I thought this was in relation to MBNA, but apparently it's this account.

 

OH has now had a

 

FORMAL DEMAND FOR PAYMENT from them (that's their caps, not mine:))

 

HBOS have authorised us to recover the full amount you owe, shown above. This is a formal notice of intended court action. We may take action unless YOU PAY THE FULL AMOUNT YOU OWE WITHIN 10 DAYS OF THE DATE OF THIS LETTER. (dated 18th, sent 2nd class, got here yesterday).

 

If court action is taken and a court considers your failure to pay to be due to your refusal or neglect to pay, an order for repayment may be made...This problem account will not go away or be forgotten - it makes sense to pay now (that really reminded me of Only Fools and Horses - you know it makes sense Rodders:D)

 

Would I be right in thinking I'm now Bemused? If so, am I bemused with Robinson Way for writing, or with HBOS for passing it on?

 

I'd like to get a letter out to whoever needs one asap, so any help as always much appreciated.

 

Thanks

 

Lexis:)

[lexis200]

I seem to have thoroughly confused Blair Oliver Scott:D

 

I sent the 'CCA is illegible' letter to them on this account a while ago, including in it the fact that they sent a set of freshly printed terms with an old address on them.

 

On the 15th OH received another set of terms, this time with our current address on them (still not the one we were at when the account was opened:rolleyes:), but they've sent it with the Halifax agreement we had a while ago, which appears to be enforceable.

 

Bunch of absolute brainless t***s. And it ruins my filing - do I put it with the Halifax stuff or the HBOS??? Dammit, it was all so neat before.

 

I'm just wondering if I need to address this to them?

[citizenB]

Lexis, the letter you wrote to Blair Oliver Scott.. post 58, I would send a copy of that to Robinson way. With a covering letter.

 

Dear Mugs,

 

Your formal demand, dated 18th NOvember and posted 2nd class mail was received today.

 

I was rather surprised to have received this from yourselves, having received one just like it from Blair Oliver Scott (whenever). I enclose a copy of the letter I sent them for your reference, this was received by them (whenever).

 

Perhaps they just simply forgot to advise you that this account is in dispute and has been since they HBOS failed to comply with a legal CCA 1974 request.

 

Yours faithfully, totally bemused. :confused:

 

It is also against OFT guidelines for more than one agency chase a debt at the same time.. although, I dont know where you would find reference to that.

Edited November 25, 2008 by citizenB

[citizenB]

I seem to have thoroughly confused Blair Oliver Scott:D

 

Not a difficult task

 

I sent the 'CCA is illegible' letter to them on this account a while ago, including in it the fact that they sent a set of freshly printed terms with an old address on them.

 

On the 15th OH received another set of terms, this time with our current address on them (still not the one we were at when the account was opened:rolleyes:), but they've sent it with the Halifax agreement we had a while ago, which appears to be enforceable.

 

Are you sure it is enforceable ?. Have you also checked the account numbers (you probably have, just checking)

 

Bunch of absolute brainless t***s. And it ruins my filing - do I put it with the Halifax stuff or the HBOS??? Dammit, it was all so neat before.

 

I'm just wondering if I need to address this to them?

 

Hmmm yes, Halifax.. Halifax Bank of Scotland and RBOS.. they dont make life easy do they. Check the account number and put it with which ever one it matches

[MAGDA]

Okay, reply received from OFT. As expected, they can't do anything, but I'm actually quite impressed with the letter. They do seem to be trying to explain things clearly, and also, it appears to give very helpful information which I'm sure can be incorporated into correspondence to aid us!

 

They cover what must be included in a 'true copy', and that the bank/owner has no recourse through the courts if it's not up to scratch.

 

They also state

 

We note your concerns that in the absence of a copy of the original agreement someone's liability for a debt can only lead to further query. However in circumstances like this we would view it as unfair practice under section 25(2) (d) of the Act and relevant to licence fitness if a trader failed to investigate and/or provide details as appropriate when a debt is queried or disputed.

 

that section is this btw - engaged in business practices appearing to the Director to be deceitful or oppressive, or otherwise unfair or improper (whether unlawful or not).

 

 

All things considered, I don't think it was a bad response. Not helpful per se, but certainly appearing to be written in order to help rather than fob off.

 

Hi Lexis, this is an extract from a response I received from OFT;

 

"We note your concerns that in the absence of a copy of the original agreement someone's liability for a debt can only lead to further query. However in circumstances like this we would view it is as unfair practice under section 25(2) (d) of the Act and relevant to licence fitness if a trader failed to investigate and/or provide details as appropriate when a debt is queried or disputed"

 

I would put money on the entire email being identical to yours. I have discovered, looking at other threads, that this is just a standard fob off that they send out. I don't think they even bother to read the emails they get. I think it is dreadful that they do not address each complaint on its own merits. This is why these companies continue to get away with the things they do, because organisations such as OFT and TS will not do their job.

 

magda

[citizenB]

Magda, I received exactly the same... twice

 

I also had a form to sign, in the event that they receive sufficient complaints against one particular trader then they will need to provide names etc to back up their investigation.

[lexis200]

oh bugger. And I thought I was special:rolleyes: I had the form too...

[MAGDA]

oh bugger. And I thought I was special:rolleyes: I had the form too...

 

Oh well, you must both be more special than me, as I didn't even get a form, just the email:D

[lexis200]

Aah, you want to send it by post Magda, then you get the form;)

 

How about this....

 

Your formal demand, dated 18th November, sent 2nd Class, reached me on the 22nd November.

 

Quite apart from the fact that I have not had any form of a Notice of Assignment (or similar) to inform me of your involvement, I was rather surprised to have received this from you, having received one just like it from Blair Oliver Scott on the 30th October. I enclose a copy of the letter I sent them for your reference; this was received by them on the 10th November.

 

Perhaps they neglected to mention that to date HBOS have been in default of my section 78 request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 since June, and that the account has been in dispute since.

 

As you are aware, while my legal request remains in default, enforcement action is not permitted; under s127 this constitutes a complete defence at law. Consequentially any legal action you pursue will be averred as both unlawful and vexatious.

 

I would respectfully suggest that this account is returned to HBOS for resolution of these defaults and breaches, as you cannot lawfully pursue any enforcement activities.

 

Any further correspondence from you, save to inform me of you passing the account back to HBOS, will simply be added to my FOS complaint, as you are already in breach of many OFT guidelines on Unfair Business Practices.

 

It's a combination of your suggestion CB, and a letter I found by the other CB (CurlyBen:))

[citizenB]

Oh very nice Lexis. Excellent.

[lexis200]

Thanks CB - didn't work though:rolleyes:

 

Just had another 'our client has instructed us' etc from RW.

 

I've knocked this up

 

I DO NOT ACKNOWLEDGE ANY DEBT TO YOUR COMPANY

OR YOUR CLIENT

Dear Sir

Your ref: 726413100

Thank you for your letter dated 30th November, which I received today.

You have already been informed in writing and on the phone that I have not received any Notice of Assignment from HBOS regarding this account.

HBOS are currently in default of a Section 78 request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974, my legal request for information following the threat of court, the account is in dispute, and they have breached my section 10 request under the Data Protection Act with regards to data processing. They are also in breach of many OFT guidelines, as are your company.

Notwithstanding all of the above you will of course be aware I have absolutely no intention of paying money to you or anyone else who can not prove they own the alleged debt, or indeed that I owe it.

The only correspondence I expect to receive is acknowledgement you are not pursuing this. I suggest you do not write to me again regarding anything else, otherwise your next letter will be used as evidence of harassment in a complaint to the Police? and ?. (not sure who I can actually complain to, so any prompting is welcome:D)

 

How's that one? Can I get it off to them or do I need to amend much?

 

 

Thanks

 

 

Lexis:)

[angel_1]

hey lexis

 

im off to the post office but you know me im still learning im sure someone with fab experience will come along soon

 

i think i will be dealing with these soon so am following your thread with much gusto,,,lol

 

hope the choc fever has subsided

 

catch up laters gal have fun MAZ;)

[citizenB]

Lexis, your post 96. I think that would be the Police, Trading standards and OFT.

 

BTW, I wouldnt THANK them for their letter.. they might think you enjoy getting the darn things and send you another one..

 

Start it off, " I am in receipt of your letter, etc"

[lexis200]

Much better CB, thanks:) I'm so used to trying to be polite to people I tend to miss obvious things like that when they're not needed!

 

I'll amend for the TS bit etc, and get that off today.

 

Lexis:)

[angel_1]

Good on you lexis

 

hiya CB and yes have replied to your pm

 

have a fun day off to pay some bills MAZ

[citizenB]

Good on you lexis

 

hiya CB and yes have replied to your pm

 

MAZ

 

Hiya Maz, ummm.. didnt get a pm from you ?

[JRP1414]

Hi Lexis,

 

Just thought I would post a quick note to say how relieved I am to have found your posts!

 

I am going through the exact same situation with my OH's Halifax Credit Card and it seems we have received almost identical correspondence from Halifax and Blair, Oliver, Scott.

 

At the moment, we are at the stage where we have disputed the copy application form and have received the reply saying 'you had the money, you pay it back'. They have refused to let up and Blair have sent a final demand for payment.

 

At least they don't seem to be as bad as Lloyds, they've just taken the money out of OH's account without permission, despite cancelling the Direct Debit!

 

Please, please keep up the good work, and the fight! It is so very reassuring to know we are not the only ones.

 

Take care,

 

JRP1414

Edited December 8, 2008 by JRP1414

[lexis200]

Hi JRP1414

 

I'm glad you've found the thread useful, especially if you (like me when I started) thought your situation was unique:)

 

I hope you already realise it, but it really reduced the pressure when it clicked with me that the letters they write are a 50/50 mix of twaddle and threats. There is rarely anything substantive in them, and I guess this is because they have nothing to back up what they say. If they did you'd be in court. Having said that I do still have a panic sometime (the court notice did that to me), but then I come on here and someone like CitizenB or Maz comes on and tells me not to be so silly:)

 

If you need any letters etc let me know. That's one of the things I found very useful on here, as if you have a frame to work from, letters flow much more easily (and quickly). Also, when I started looking on here I always had Word open. I have folders in it for quotes and letters picked up round the site, and it's dead handy to have as a reference for letters (or phone calls if you really must, but I would most definitely keep anything of any relevance to letters, sent by rec.delivery and not signed by you!

 

Have you got a thread going? If you have, please feel free to post it on here so others can follow your shenanigans (yes, I did say shenanigans:D) with them.

 

My update today is RW have now written saying they have

'noted the dispute/query you have raised. We will make the necessary enquiries and let you know the outcome in due course. In the meantime we will stop all collection activity for this account.'

 

And to think, last week they were intent on taking OH to court:D