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    • If anybody has any advice here, it would be greatly appreciated, I already suffer with pre-existing disabilities & have struggled with this so far. 
    • so return of goods order etc etc read upload  scan pages to jpg, redact in mspaint. the convert to and merge to one mass PDF  read upload and use the online listed sites for all 3 stages. do you want to keep the car? i will guess this was a manual paper claimform direct from the co.court or was it org sent from salford bulk processing and has just got reaq ssigned?      
    • Speaking of the reformatory boys, here they are with all of their supporters, some of whom traveled with them from miles away, all carefully crammed together and photographed to look like there were more than about 80 .. rather like Farages last rally with even fewer people crammed around what looked like an ice cream van or mobile tea bar ... Although a number in the crowd apparently thought they were at a vintage car rally as they appeared to be chanting 'crank-her'. A vintage Bentley must be out of view.   Is this all there is? Its less than the Tory candidate. - shut up and smile while they get a camera angle that looks better
    • in order for us to help you we require the following information:- Which Court have you received the claim from ? Canterbury Name of the Claimant ? Moneybarn No 1   How many defendant's  joint or self ? One Date of issue –  29/05/24 Acknowledged by 14/06/24  Defence by 29/06/24  Particulars of Claim PARTICULARS OF CLAIM 1.  By a Conditional Sale Agreement in writing made on 25th August 2022. Between the Claimant and Defendant, the Claimant let to the Defendant on Conditional Sale. A Ford Ranger 3.2 TDCi (200 P S) 4x4 Wildtrack Double Cab Pickup 3200cc (Sep.2015) Registration No, ******* Chassis number ***************** (“The Vehicle”).  A copy of the agreement is attached  2.  The price of the goods was £15,995.00. The Initial Rental was £8500.00.  The total charge for credit was £3575.;17 And the balance of £11,070.17 was payable by 59 equal consecutive monthly instalments of £187 63. payable on the 25th of each month. 3.  The following were expressed conditions of the set agreement, Clause 8: Our Right to End this Agreement  8.1   Subject to sending you the notice as required by law, any of the following events will entitle us to end this Agreement: 8.1.2  You fail to pay the advance payment (if any) or any of the payments as specified on the front page of this agreement or any other sum payable under this Agreement. 8.1.3 If any of the information you have given us before entering into this Agreement or during the term of this Agreement was false 8.1.4 We consider, acting reasonably, that the goods may be in jeopardy or that our rights in the goods may otherwise be prejudiced. 8.1.5 If you die 8.1.6 If a bankruptcy petition is presented against you; if you petition for your own bankruptcy, or make a live arrangement with your creditors or call a meeting of them. 8. 1.7 If in Scotland, you become insolvent or sequestration or a receiver, judicial factor or trustee to be appointed over any of your estate, or effects or suffer an arrestment, charge attachment or other diligence to be issued or levied on any of your estate or effects or suffer any exercise, or threatened exercise of landlords hype hypothec 8.1.8 If you are a partnership, you are dissolved 8.1.9 If the goods are destroyed, lost, stolen and/or treated by the insurer as a total loss in response to an insurance claim. 8.1.10 If we reasonably believe any payment made to us in respect of this Agreement is a proceed of crime. 8.1.11 If steps are taken by us to terminate any other agreement which you have entered into with us. Clause 9.  Effect of Us Terminating Agreement 9.1 If this Agreement terminates under clause 8 the following will apply 9.1.1 Subject to the rights given to you by law, you will no longer be entitled to possession of the goods and must return them to us to an address as we may reasonably specify, (removing or commencing the removal of any cherished plates) together with a V5 registration certificate, both sets of keys and a service record book. If you are unable or unwilling to return the goods to us then we shall collect the goods and we'll charge you in accordance with clause 10.3 9.1.2 We will be entitled to immediate payment from you for all payments and all other sums do under this agreement at the date of termination 9.1.3 We will sell the goods or public sale at the earliest opportunity once the goods are in a reasonable condition which includes a return of the items listed in clause 7.1.4 9.1.4 We will be entitled to immediate payment from you of the rest of the Total Amount Payable under this agreement less: ( a) A rebate for early settlement ias required by law which will be calculated and notified to you at the time of payment (b) The proceeds of sale of the goods (if any) after deduction of all costs associated with finding you and/or the goods, recovery, refurbishment and repair. Insurance, storage, sale, agents fees, cherished plate removal, replacement keys, costs associated with obtaining service history for the goods and in relation to obtaining a duplicate V5 registration certificate 4, The following are particulars required by Civil Procedure Rules. Rule 7.9 as set out in 7.1 and 7.2 of the associated Practice Direction entitled Hire Purchase Claims:- a)     The agreement is dated 25 August 2022. And is between Moneybarn No1 Limited  and xxxxxxxxx under agreement  number xxxxxx. b)    The claimant was one of the original parties to the agreement. c)    The agreement is regulated under the Consumer Credit Act 1974. d)    The goods claimed Ford Ranger 3.2 TDCi ( 200 PS) 4x4 Wildtrack Double Cab Pickup 3200 cc (Sep2015} Registration No ^^^^^^^ Chassis number ***************** e)     The total price of the goods £19570 f)     The paid up sum £1206 5 g)    The unpaid balance of the total price £7505 (to include charges) h)    A default notice was sent to the defendant on 20th February 2024 by First class post i)      The date when the right to demand delivery of the goods accrued 14 March 2024 j)      The amount if any claimed as an alternative to delivery of the goods 7505 22 include charges 5.  At the date of service of the notice the instalments were £562.89 in arrears. 6. By reason of the Termination of the Agreement by the notice, defendant became liable to pay the sum of £7502 7. The date of maturity the agreement is 24th August 2027. 8. Further or alternative by reasons of  the Defendant breaches of the agreement by failing to pay the said instalments, the Defendant evinced an intention no longer to be bound by the Agreement and repudiated it by the said Notice the claimant accepted that repudiation 9. By reason of such repudiation the claimant has suffered loss and damage. Total amount payable £19570 Less sum paid or in arrears by the date of repudiation £12064 97 Balance £7505 (to include charges.) ( The claimant will give credit if necessary for the value of the vehicle if recovered.)  The claimant therefore claims 1.    An order for delivery up of the vehicle 2.    The MoneyClaim to be adjourned generally with liberty to restore,  Upon restoration of the MoneyClaim following return or loss of the vehicle. the Claimant will ensure the pre action protocol for debt claims is followed. 3.    Pursuant to s 90 (1)  of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. An order that the Claimant and/or its agents may enter any premises in which the vehicle is situated in order to recover the vehicle should it not be returned by the Defendant 4.    further or alternatively damages 5.    costs Statement of truth The Claimant believes that the facts stated in these Particulars of Claim are true. The Claimant understands that the proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes or causes to be made a false statement in the document for verified by statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth. I am duly Authorised by the Claimant to sign these Particulars of Claim signed Dated 17th of April 2024  What is the total value of the claim? 7502   Have you received prior notice of a claim being issued pursuant to paragraph 3 of the PAPDC (Pre Action Protocol) ? No   Never heard of this   Have you changed your address since the time at which the debt referred to in the claim was allegedly incurred? No   Did you inform the claimant of your change of address? n/a Is the claim for - a Bank Account (Overdraft) or credit card or loan or catalogue or mobile phone account? No   When did you enter into the original agreement before or after April 2007 ? After  Do you recall how you entered into the agreement...On line /In branch/By post ? In a garage  Is the debt showing on your credit reference files (Experian/Equifax /Etc...) ? Yes  Has the claim been issued by the original creditor or was the account assigned and it is the Debt purchaser who has issued the claim. Original Were you aware the account had been assigned – did you receive a Notice of Assignment? n/a   Did you receive a Default Notice from the original creditor? They said sent but nor received   Have you been receiving statutory notices headed “Notice of Sums in Arrears”  or " Notice of Arrears "– at least once a year ? None seen   Why did you cease payments? Still Paying,   What was the date of your last payment? Yesterday  31st May 2024   Was there a dispute with the original creditor that remains unresolved? No   Did you communicate any financial problems to the original creditor and make any attempt to enter into a debt management plan? Yes on 12 Feb 2024   What you need to do now.   Can't scan, will do via another means as you cant have jpg  
    • Now that is an interesting article which adds afew perspective that I hadn't thought significant - but on reflection of the perspectives offered ... Now Starmer is no Blair, however 'blairite he may be perceived, but the Tories aren't tories and aren't even remotely liberal   The fast 'unannounced and unexpected election call from sunack may well be explained by the opinion linked that he hoped reform would be unprepared and effectively call a chunk of Farages largely empty bluster - making him look even more of a prat, leave scope for attacks on shabby reform candidates and mimimise core vote losses to reform - while throwing the 'middle ground' (relative) tories TO THE DOGS - and with the added bonus of likely pacifying his missu' desire to jogg off to sunny cal tout suite somewhat   thumb in the air - I expect about 140ish tory seats, but can hope for under a hundred Reform - got to admit the outside possibility of 1, maybe 2 seats with about 8% of the vote - but unlikely. I think projections of over 10% of the vote for reform is nudged and paid for speculation - but possible with the expected massive drives from Russian, Chinese and far right social media bot and troll prods targeting the gullible.
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    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

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Guest pdyke14856

Mundane. You havent taken a picture of the sign right on front of the building, and you walked towards the one on the wall. I find it incredulous to say you didnt see it as you walked right up to it, within just a few feet.

 

I believe the signs to be very well displayed. It was the first thing I noticed.

 

Normally on a Saturday anything upto 30 people would park there. Only 4 did so that day, so I would say that they worked well.

 

And do you know the reason those signs went up last week. The accountants had been politely asking people not to park in their car park as they couldnt park, their clients couldnt get in and they had been constantly blocked in, so had been putting 'Private Parking Dont Park here notices' on cars that did. One guy took such offence to being asked not to park , he threatened the women in the office and later they had their window put through. So obviously polite doesnt work.

 

So before you start to feel hard done by for parking on other peoples property in front of well displayed signs have a little think yourself(and the others on this site who seem to feel justified to just do what they damn well please), that we pay for this parking, we pay for those polite signs asking you not to park that ****ed idiots rip off, we pay for the signs saying 'Private,Customer or Client' Parking only, we pay for the upkeep of driveway, we pay to have windows replaced, we pay for the insurance on the land incase someone trespasses falls over and hurts themselves, we pay to or have to pick up the litter themselves, we pay to rent it, we pay for all of it!!! The leaseholder (note not the landowner he is already renting to the leaseholder) doesnt make any money from the clampers and the reason you get clamped is because those people who pay for their parking want to be able to use it when they see fit, not when you think it's free.

 

So next time one of you smart arses says 'Write to the owners of the building asking for a breakdown of the damages caused by my 2 minute (turned nearly 45 minute) stay.', ask for a breakdown of all of the above!

 

(Rant over)

Edited by pdyke14856
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Guest pdyke14856
Sigh.. None of this is sinking in is it pdyke? I'm not trying to say I 'didn't do it, guv!' The whole point of my argument is that it isn't clear enough that clampers were operating due to the poorly displayed signs. If I had seen the signs and chosen to ignore them then I would admit that it's my own stupid fault. Next time I'll know to park in the lay-by out the front instead.

 

Actually thats an incredible statement. What it says is, unless someone is holding a stick ready to beat me with, polite notice carrots hold no sway.

 

Unbelievable.:-x

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Could you perhaps point me to which part of criminal law you are referring to when you state that Mundane has parked illegally?

 

Well I would quote trespass. But of course trespass only extends to aggravation if I remember correctly. Of course, you can park anywhere you please. I could of course come and park on your drive Pat, staring at you from my window and you could serve me a letter and wait 7 days, as you cannot do anything to me either.

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Well I would quote trespass. But of course trespass only extends to aggravation if I remember correctly. Of course, you can park anywhere you please. I could of course come and park on your drive Pat, staring at you from my window and you could serve me a letter and wait 7 days, as you cannot do anything to me either.

 

Oh dear, as I thought.

 

Leaving aside aggravated trespass -which simply doesn't apply here...

 

Trespass is a civil matter, not a criminal matter. It cannot be dealt with in a criminal court, a landowner may only sue for damages in a civil court.

 

Trespass is not illegal (criminal) it maybe unlawful (civil)/

 

You may consider that quite a fine demarcation but I think that you should understand the law before throwing around accusation of criminal activity.

 

As to the second part of your response, it is sheer drivel and thus to be treated as such and unworthy of further comment.

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us usual PPCs don't recognise what is illegal and what is unlawful. (or what is simple tort and the limits to them) there is no invitation to treat to invite parking on someones drive. I have in the past offered to arrange a living example to PPCs of what can be done if you park on someones's drive and how it differs from car parks. for some reason non of them would get in their cars and try it out. I wonder why that is ? or do I ? . .

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Guest pdyke14856

 

As to the second part of your response, it is sheer drivel and thus to be treated as such and unworthy of further comment.

 

and is exactly my point, as that is exactly what one person said and did.

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Write to the SIA to inform them of the clampers' breach of regulations for both displaying their ID and the signs.

The SIA don't give a monkey's about the signs (or release fees). Their sole function is licenses the individuals working in the Private Security Industry. They will be interested in the non display of the damages.

 

Write to the owners of the building asking for a breakdown of the damages caused by my 2 minute (turned nearly 45 minute) stay.

 

Also, would it be a good idea to send copies of my correspondence to each party to all parties, so everyone can see what's going on, or keep them all seperate?

Write to both the landowner/leaseholder and the clamper. Clamping firms have a nasty habit of going out of business overnight. You want them both on notice as you will sue them both.

 

Edit:

Yes they did give me a receipt. Also, While I was waiting for the police to call back another driver pulled into the car park and I warned them about the clamping, they hadn't noticed the signs, and as I was leaving a man in a rather nice sports car pulled in and parked. I wonder if they got him too.

Did the receipt have all the required information. If it didn't report them to the SIA. You can also check the guys registration details on the SIA website. Note there are different types of registration he must be registered for front line vehicle immobilisation.

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While I don't condone parking where-ever you like I can't let your rant go unanswered. There are better solutions than clamping as some have suggested on this site.

 

that we pay for this parking,

Yes you do and you are entitled to damages when you prevented from using the spaces. The damages should be the amount of loss actually incurred. Anything above this amounts to a penalty charge.

 

we pay for those polite signs asking you not to park that ****ed idiots rip off, we pay for the signs saying 'Private,Customer or Client' Parking only

You have to display those if want to have any chance of enforcing any parking control on your land and even then they are of questionable benefit. However they are required if you intend to clamp.

 

 

we pay for the upkeep of driveway

You'd pay for that whether it was rightfully used or not.

 

we pay to have windows replaced,

What has that got to do with parking

we pay for the insurance on the land incase someone trespasses falls over and hurts themselves,

Normal risk for doing business nothing to do with parking per se.

 

we pay to or have to pick up the litter themselves,

Again nothing to do with parking

 

we pay to rent it, we pay for all of it!!!

Yes you do and it is part and parcel of being in business. You can claim damages as mentioned above for some of it.

The leaseholder (note not the landowner he is already renting to the leaseholder) doesnt make any money from the clampers and the reason you get clamped is because those people who pay for their parking want to be able to use it when they see fit, not when you think it's free.

Actually some landowners do get damages back from the clampers. If they don't then they leave themselves wide open for counter claims on the penalty charges issue. The clampers damages would be nil or very little.

So next time one of you smart arses says 'Write to the owners of the building asking for a breakdown of the damages caused by my 2 minute (turned nearly 45 minute) stay.', ask for a breakdown of all of the above!

No we don't need a breakdown of all of the above just a breakdown of the actual losses suffered (damages).

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No we don't need a breakdown of all of the above just a breakdown of the actual losses suffered (damages).

 

Great - so if that was the case then parking in private land would probably work out cheaper than an NCP car park

It is incredibly difficult to quantify or justify the "costs". 1 car parking on private property might cause no costs. 10 cars parking as such might take up all available spaces and cause thousands of pounds of costs.

Who pays for this? The first person who parked... all of them... or just the last 2 or 3 who hammered the proverbial nail in the coffin.

What if only one person parks.. by virtue of the fact the rest of the car park is empty should they get to park for free? how about next time when they come along and the car park is almost full. Having parked for free once then why not do it again?

Where does the buck stop? a proper penalty charge reduces inconvienence for the land owner and gets the message across.

 

Its a very simple thing to understand. If it looks like private property and isn't marked as public parking then it is more than likely private property and isn't public parking. You should accept the consequences.

 

And as for the original poster. he's even gone to the trouble of hiding his car down the side of a building inadvertantly blocking off an access route.

Why do that in an empty public carpark?

Edited by Jaffa_Cake77
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Where does the buck stop? a proper penalty charge reduces inconvienence for the land owner and gets the message across........

Hello the wheel's spinning but the hamsters f***ed off. Ever heard of the Dunlop Pnuematic Tyres vs New Garage case. Penalty charges are illegal. No ifs, No buts. A decision from the Court of Appeal that is as binding as statute law. A court will overturn penalty charges.

 

It is perfectly reasonable to ask for the actual damages. Clamping is a modern day example of damage distress feasant - a remedy for trespass whereby you hold goods or property belonging to another until they compensate you for the loss incurred. Anything over and above that would be deemed a penalty and would be overturned.

 

Its a very simple thing to understand. If it looks like private property and isn't marked as public parking then it is more than likely private property and isn't public parking.

That just doesn't follow. The converse equally applies. I've seen public property that looks like private property. I've also seen cases where private individuals/companies have annexed public land.

 

You should accept the consequences.

Why should we. Clamping has to have met certain conditions before it can be deemed legal. (signage, SIA licensing etc). So it's not as simple as saying just accept the consequences. They rules and the case law have to be followed. The OP is merely exploring whether he has some redress. My advice to the OP has been on the basis that he feels he has a case.

 

BTW I have made no judgement as to the morality of parking where he did. I suspect he won't be parking there again. Regardless of that he did come asking for advice on the legality of the clamping which I have done my best to provide.

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I see you nicely side stepped the issue of what the loss incurred is and how it should be calculated.

I would have thought that it was reasonably obvious however it seems the hamster is still away.

 

You can come up with a figure based on the proportion of rent actually spent on car parking. That will provide a basis to work out the rest. If you have to pay to park somewhere else then that that can be added as damages to the figure above.

 

Or is every small business owner with customer parking supposed to spend hours of their own time weighing up each case and figuring the loss incurred?

You would have to calculate the amount if asked to by a court. Ultimately you have to convince a court your charge was reasonable, was actually incurred and not a penalty added as a deterrence. BTW once you calculate the figure once its relatively to put it in a spreadsheet so that you can use it again.

 

BTW whether a business owner is going to spend time calulating the loss depends on how much he feels the issue is affecting his business and whether he wants the attendant hassle of enforcing any restrictions. It is another part of the business that needs attending to like all the others.

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Guest pdyke14856

But pin1, by using a clamper, you are in fact employing their services. So in respect, there is a cost involved for their time. In addition, there are two of them, so surely you have to pay for the damages and their time and subsequently the proportion of their vehicle etc etc.

 

So if they want to charge £300 an hour per person, who are you to say thats unreasonable! Im sure if Duncan Bannatyne clamped your car you'd seriously be out of pocket! :D

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I would have thought that it was reasonably obvious however it seems the hamster is still away.

Very mature

 

You can come up with a figure based on the proportion of rent actually spent on car parking. That will provide a basis to work out the rest. If you have to pay to park somewhere else then that that can be added as damages to the figure above.

 

So if the car park is full of illegally parked cars, which results in a loss of trade as genuine customers decide to go else where... how can a business calculate for that loss?

And as for the rent for that patch of ground for the amount of time the car is parked there. The cost of printing out the "estimated" costs is going to be more than that.

 

 

You would have to calculate the amount if asked to by a court. Ultimately you have to convince a court your charge was reasonable, was actually incurred and not a penalty added as a deterrence. BTW once you calculate the figure once its relatively to put it in a spreadsheet so that you can use it again.

Court? so not only is time lost having to work out how much was lost because of some inconsiderate pratt parking but time also has to be taken out of the day to attend court.

Brilliant *smacks head*

 

BTW whether a business owner is going to spend time calulating the loss depends on how much he feels the issue is affecting his business and whether he wants the attendant hassle of enforcing any restrictions. It is another part of the business that needs attending to like all the others.

So it is

But it is also responsiblity of car ownership to know that you cannot simply park where you like simply because the signs might not be up to spec or polite enough.

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But pin1, by using a clamper, you are in fact employing their services. So in respect, there is a cost involved for their time. In addition, there are two of them, so surely you have to pay for the damages and their time and subsequently the proportion of their vehicle etc etc.

 

So if they want to charge £300 an hour per person, who are you to say thats unreasonable! Im sure if Duncan Bannatyne clamped your car you'd seriously be out of pocket! :D

 

also suggest you check employment law, the clampers are not employed by the landowner. the cost of time is specious - though often trotted out. whoever the clamper's real employer is they are paying for his time whether he clamps or not. It is part of the fixed costs. The time argument holds no water.

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Court? so not only is time lost having to work out how much was lost because of some inconsiderate pratt parking but time also has to be taken out of the day to attend court.

Yes. If you use clampers then that is a distinct possibility. If you are a business owner contemplating this solution then you should factor this possibility into the equation. Ditto if you use dodgy invoices masquerading as Parking tickets. People can and will fight back against shoddy and/or illegal processes and practice.

 

But it is also responsiblity of car ownership to know that you cannot simply park where you like simply because the signs might not be up to spec or polite enough.

I have never implied that you can park where you like.

 

Unfortunately whether you like it or not the case law in England and Wales requires warning signs if you are going to use clamps. If signs are not up to spec or are not understandable then that failure falls at the feet of the business. Politeness does not really enter it to it but may persuade some drivers not to park there.

 

Finally I would point out that the responsibility for the decision to park lies with the driver at the time. Despite the contentions of many PPCs, the driver, the owner and the registered keeper are not necessarily one and the same person under civil law.

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The you're doing it wrong, promise or not.

 

If you do it right, you only do it once, and apply that as the basis of your claim each and every time an unsolicited invoice is challenged.

 

Every parking case will have its own special circumstances.

Different time of day

Different day of week

Different length of stay

It was raining

I'm sure I can find 101 others by browsing this forum

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The damages for which you are claiming are for a genuine pre-estimate of losses incurred due to that vehicle being parked.

 

If there is a genuine loss incurred due to that vehicle being parked, why is it so difficult to quantify that loss?

Furthermore, there is no reason why the liquidated damages clause cannot be calculated with reference to a formula or time period, or where the actual damage cannot be pre-estimated with any certainty or is immeasurable at the formation of the contract, and there is case law to support this, so the argument that it would be too difficult or time-consuming doesn't wash.

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