Arrows/Marlins Claimform - old LLoyds loan no CCA-**WON..DISC'D+COSTS**

[wakeywakey]

Hello Everyone,

 

This is my first post although I have been reading here for a while.

 

I had a threatening letter from Marlins re an old debt that I dont believe I owe.

Unfortuneatly I let them bully me into adding it to my DPM so I cant try the 6 year rule.

 

After reading on this site I decided to send a CCA request to see if they had anything, but while waiting for reply I had a County Court Claim delivered from Arrow Global Ltd on 28th August 2008

 

I decided to defend and entered my AoS on the 3rd Sept 08

 

Today I received a letter from Marlins stating (I will have to type it all in as I dont know how to copy etc).

 

Dear Sir,

 

Re; Arrow Global Ltd v (me)

Claim No 8*******

Ref; 2*****

 

We refer to the above matter and inparticular yout letter dated 20th August 2008 received by us on 22nd August 2008.

 

Further to your recent request for a copy of your credit agreement, we unfortunately have been unable to obtain one to provide you. We hope this is not of inconvience to you.

 

We have requested a copy of the Deed of Assignment from our client, which will be forwarded to upon receipt of the same.

 

Please be aware that a recent High Court judgement held that once a credit agreement has been terminated the obligation to provide a copy agreement in accordance with the Consumer Credit Act 1974 ceases to apply. There is therefore no penalty for our being unable to provide the copy agreement and, more particularly, the debt remains enforcable against you.

 

This means that you remain liable to pay the debt and that Arrow Global Ltd will be entitled to take enforement action against you to recover it. This could include seeking a County Court judgement against you and, if awarded and the judgement amount is not paid according to the judgement, seeking an enforcment order such as a charging order, attachment of earnings order or attendance of a bailiff to seize and sell your non-essential property to pay down the debt.

 

We hope that this clarifies any misunderstanding you had in relation to our obligations under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 and your obligation to pay your debt.

 

Yours Faithfully,

 

Litatgation Services

 

Not sure as to my next move but I would think I have a good case here dont you?

[creditcardmug]

Hi, and welcome, i had to read that twice just to be sure i wasnt seeing things!, everything in that letter is utter rubbish IMHO.

 

Ok first who is the original creditor?

Can you post up the particulars of claim?

Have you ever recieved a Default Notice?

Have you received any Notice of Assignment from both the OC and the DCA?

[jonni2bad]

Ouwww, I like that one!

 

By the way - what were the details shown in the Particulars of Claim against you?

[wakeywakey]

Hi,

 

Sorry, forgot to show the basics.

 

Original creditor Lloydds

 

POC's is quite long winded

"By a credit agreement in writing between Llyods TSB Bank Plc (LTSB) & the Defedant dated 21/01/94 (the agreement) LTSB agreed to loan the defendant monies under the terms and conditions set out therein.

The agreement is regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. In breach of the Agreement the Defendant did not pay the instalments as they fell due. LTSB served a default Notice on the Defendant stating the sum due & requiring the Defendant to pay the same. The Defendant failed to pay & the Agreement was assigned to the claimant on 18/07/2007.

THE CLAIMANT THEREFORE CLAIMS:

1. 1,253.25

2. Interest at the rate pursuant to the Agreement namely 0.00 & continuing until judgement or sooner payment at the daily rate of 0.00 or in the alternative interest pursuant to section 69 of the County Courts Act 1984. Also, interest at the rate pursuant to the Agreement from the judgement date until payment"

 

If I did ever receive a default it was some time ago. Just cant remember

 

Yes, I did receive an assignment from both, but as I have many debts I just didnt bother arguing the toss and added it to my DMP.

And I didnt realise it was from so long ago.

[pt2537]

FANTASTIC

 

they are pleading that youre indebted to them via a written contract but they dont have it nor can they find it nor do they think it matters

 

Time to get their donkey and fillet the begger

 

they have little to no prospect of success with that argument

[pt2537]

also while im thinking about it

 

nowhere does it make mention to the fact that the agreement has been terminated so for all we know it is still live and furthermore, they will obviously be providing primary evidence of the default being served im sure but wait they cant cos they have sod all and they know it

[creditcardmug]

OK, the first thing is to send a CPR18 request to the claimant, there's one in the templates but i have my own which i can post up if you need it.

 

The POC is hopeless, and what's that about interest being claimed at 0%, and any way they aren't entitled to interest under the county courts act 1974.

 

I think all this gives you a flavour of how they are going to proceed with this.

 

What date do you have to file your defence by, its 33 days from the date on the claim form?

 

Ok paul has arrived while i was typing, your in the best of hands Regards

[pt2537]

Please be aware that a recent High Court judgement held that once a credit agreement has been terminated the obligation to provide a copy agreement in accordance with the Consumer Credit Act 1974 ceases to apply. There is therefore no penalty for our being unable to provide the copy agreement and, more particularly, the debt remains enforcable against you.

 

Ah now while this may be the case, it is highly irrelevant as it is not the CCA which governs proceedings but the rules of the court and the CPR

 

they cannot get out of an obligation to supply the documents which they are relying upon if they want their case to succeed and if they do not have it then its game over as the judge cannot make an enforcement order if he cannot see the documents

[pookeymonkey]

Hi WW,

 

does this look familiar?

 

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff266/pookeymonkey/marlinhfcletter1.jpg

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff266/pookeymonkey/marlinhfcletter2.jpg

 

And I thought they had spent the time to lovingly craft a letter just for me!

 

Funny thing is I have never asked Marlin for my CCA as I have already asked the original creditor for it in 2007, they sent some statements and some waffle about not being able to find it at present, but promised to send it soon. A few months later they sold the account to Phoenix/Marlin.

 

Have a look at this thread - Marlin trying to use the Rankine case- I think - The Consumer Forums

 

Good luck with your case,

 

Pookey

Edited September 6, 2008 by pookeymonkey

[wakeywakey]

OK, the first thing is to send a CPR18 request to the claimant, there's one in the templates but i have my own which i can post up if you need it.

 

The POC is hopeless, and what's that about interest being claimed at 0%, and any way they aren't entitled to interest under the county courts act 1974.

 

I think all this gives you a flavour of how they are going to proceed with this.

 

What date do you have to file your defence by, its 33 days from the date on the claim form?

 

Ok paul has arrived while i was typing, your in the best of hands Regards

 

CPR request sent to claimant 3rd sept

Issue date 26th aug so Defence needed for 28th Sept I think

[wakeywakey]

OK, I think I'm with you so far.

I kind of understood all this bit.

Its the next bit that I dont quite get.

 

I have read other posts but im still quite confused.

 

I will have to defend still even though its probable that they dont have the agreement, is that right?

so what happens if they just ignore my CPR request and do nothing?

Will I still have to go to court?

 

If so, Blimey, its still quite daunting, even though it looks optimistic at the moment.

Good job you guys are here to help!

[pookeymonkey]

Hi WW,

 

have a look through this thread, I had a CCA and a CPR18 request ignored and filed a defence with the help of CAG members based on this and the lack of any credit agreement. The defence is on this thread along with the build up to it.

 

Halifax ignore CCA request and reminder -now I have recieved a Court claim - The Consumer Forums

 

Good luck,

 

Pookey

[surfaceagentx20]

Oh boy, another totally whacked up claim. I'm really lovin' 'em.

 

First, I think there's no point in putting in a CPR 18 Request for Further Information, particularly those types of CPR 18 Requests which read like they're a Data Protection Act SARS. For a kick off it will be ignored, so to compel compliance you'll need an order which will only come after a defence has gone in and the case has been allocated. The case will be allocated to the small claims track since it is for a sum below £5,000.00. The provisions of CPR 18 are excluded unless the Judge decides there is something about the case which requires Further Information and casn't be provided by some other way. The stuff which will be relevant will be documents revealed during the stage of disclosure. Indeed and in truth what will be relevant is what they will be unable to disclose!

 

So having put in an Acknowledgement of Service, now put in a Defence. All it needs to do is join issue with the allegations set out in the PoC and chuck in the hurdles which will bring them to their knees.

 

My 2 cents says the Defence will run something like this:

 

1 The Defendant admits that in or about January 1994 (he/she) entered into an agreement with LTSB and which was an agreement regulated by The Consumer Credit Act 1974 (The Act).

 

2 The Defendant has no recollection of and makes no admissions regarding the precise purpose of the agreement or of its terms, conditions and other provisions or what would constitute a breach thereof. The Defendant denies that the agreement was a properly executed agreement and denies committing a breach thereof.

 

3 Alternatively, if the Defendant committed a breach thereof the breach gave rise to a cause of action which had accrued in excess of 6 years prior to the commencement of this case and in consequence of which may not now be brought by reason of section 5 and/or section 29(7) of The Limitation Act 1980.

 

4 Further and alternatively, if the agreement was a properly executed agreement, save that LTSB terminated the agreement, it is denied that the agremeent is now capable of enforcement by the Claimant whether in whole or in part.

 

5 It is denied that LTSB served a default notice upon the Defendant, alternative a default notice complying with the provisions of section 88 of The Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

6 It is further denied that prior to the termination identified at paragraph 4, LTSB had become entitled to benefit from any of the rights set out at section 87(1) of The Consumer Cedit Act 1974. By reason of the matters set out at paragraph 5, LTSB gained none of those rights.

 

7 Notwithstanding the contents of paragraph 6, it is admitted and avered that since the termination identified at paragraph 4, LTSB and the Claimant have made demand of the Defendant for the payment of money the subject of this claim.

 

8 Incorporated within the sum demanded by the Claimant are sums claimed for their and/or LTSB's administration fees, late payment charges and like provisions. It is denied (if it be alleged) that the Claimant has incurred any such fees and charges, alternatively that such fees and charges if incurred accurately represent sums lost by the Claimant by reason of late payment. The Defendant avers the incorporation of such claims is penal and unenforceable at law.

 

9 Further and in any event, by reason of the matters set out at paragraphs 5 and 6 above and the requirements of section 87(1) of the Act, the steps taken by LTSB and/or the Claimant and identified at paragraphs 7 hereof were steps which LTSB and/or the Claimant were not entitled to take.

 

10 It is denied that LTSB assigned the agreement to the Claimant, alternatively that there was any valuable benefit in the agreement capable of being assigned to the Claimant.

 

11 In the circumstances the facts and matters set out in the Particulars of Claim do not give rise to an entitlement to claim any of the relief now sought by the Claimant.

 

12 The Claimant’s claim to be entitled to £1,253.25, to interest or to any other sum is denied.

 

I BELIEVE THAT THE CONTENTS OF THIS DEFENCE ARE TRUE.

Signed:

 

Dated:

 

x20

[wakeywakey]

In 1. of the defence, I am admitting the agreement aren't I?

 

Should I be doing this when I really have no recollection of the loan?

[surfaceagentx20]

OK, I got the impression you accepted you had entered into an agreement with LTSB. If you really have no idea at all, make the folowing changes:

 

Para 1: change 'admit' to 'does not admit'.

 

Para 2: Add 'Further,' at the beginnig of this paragraph.

 

Para 3: After 'the Defendant', add 'entered into the agreement and'

 

x20

[wakeywakey]

Hmmm, bit complicated isn''t it?

I had lots of debts back then and still do.

When I received the debt letter I simply failed to recognise it as a debt this old and presumed it was just another DCA buying one of my newer debts.

I added it to my DMP

 

Do you therefore think it would be best to admit the debt because I have already added it to the DMP?

Or go with my original plan to dispute the debt entirely?

 

Many thanks for your help

[surfaceagentx20]

I'm sorry if I have made things complicated. I'm trying to condense every conceivable defence into a short document. If you'd like me to redo the Defence with the amendments I recommend just say so and I'll repost.

 

In any case:

 

DONT admit the debt. The fact you added it to your DMP may still be of no benefit to the Claimant. That's why I pleaded section 29(7) of The Limitation Act. Section 29(7) says that once the six years have expired the limitation period is over for all time and can not be revived by an acknowledgement made after those six years have expired.

 

DO enter a Defence, either in the terms of the draft I knocked up or some other draft you may prefer.

 

I very much doubt this case will get near a courtroom. I foresee it being abandoned by the Claimant long before then.

 

x20

[wakeywakey]

x20, I didnt mean you had made it complicated. I meant its just complicated when, like me, you don't really know what your doing.

 

However, with your help and others on this forum, I am learning fast.

 

I can sort out the defence from the first script you gave and I will just change the part regarding admitting as you suggest.

 

Can I then show you the final defence for consideration?

[wakeywakey]

Ah now while this may be the case, it is highly irrelevant as it is not the CCA which governs proceedings but the rules of the court and the CPR

 

they cannot get out of an obligation to supply the documents which they are relying upon if they want their case to succeed and if they do not have it then its game over as the judge cannot make an enforcement order if he cannot see the documents

 

 

So what should I do now?

This was from the claimant, not the solicitor, I'm still waiting to hear from them.

[surfaceagentx20]

You should file your Defence. You may use the text of my draft Defence if you wish after the modifications we discussed earlier. If you want to show us the final form of your Defence before you file it, go right on ahead.

 

x20

[wakeywakey]

OK, I'm ready to start my defence paper.

Sorry to be thick, but is this using the defence form they sent me in the claim pack, copying the one you made up for me, then pasting it and then adding it as seperate defence sheet, or online?

 

Thanks guys

[surfaceagentx20]

Which ever is easier.

 

The important thing is that the court record should show you entered a legible defence with a signed verification statement on time. What paper it might be written on will (within reason) be of little consequence.

 

x20

[robcag]

OK, I'm ready to start my defence paper.

Sorry to be thick, but is this using the defence form they sent me in the claim pack, copying the one you made up for me, then pasting it and then adding it as seperate defence sheet, or online?

 

Thanks guys

 

Bear in mind that if you enter it online there is a limit as to how many words/characters you can submit. Therefore if you are going to exceed this number you will have to use one of the other methods (i.e. post or hand delivery).

 

I don't recall the number, but perhaps someone else can advise.

 

Cheers

Rob

[creditcardmug]

8000 characters

[wakeywakey]

Hi Guys,

 

This is my defence.

Could you have a quick look at it as it needs to go pretty quick now.

 

I notice theres no mention of the fact they havent replied to my CPR18 request.

Should that be added?

 

 

 

 

 

1 The Defendant does not admits that in or about January 1994 he entered into an agreement with LTSB and which was an agreement regulated by The Consumer Credit Act 1974 (The Act).

 

2 Further, the Defendant has no recollection of and makes no admissions regarding the precise purpose of the agreement or of its terms, conditions and other provisions or what would constitute a breach thereof. The Defendant denies that the agreement was a properly executed agreement and denies committing a breach thereof.

 

3 Alternatively, if the Defendant enterered into the agreement and committed a breach thereof the breach gave rise to a cause of action which had accrued in excess of 6 years prior to the commencement of this case and in consequence of which may not now be brought by reason of section 5 and/or section 29(7) of The Limitation Act 1980.

 

4 Further and alternatively, if the agreement was a properly executed agreement, save that LTSB terminated the agreement, it is denied that the agremeent is now capable of enforcement by the Claimant whether in whole or in part.

 

5 It is denied that LTSB served a default notice upon the Defendant, alternative a default notice complying with the provisions of section 88 of The Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

6 It is further denied that prior to the termination identified at paragraph 4, LTSB had become entitled to benefit from any of the rights set out at section 87(1) of The Consumer Cedit Act 1974. By reason of the matters set out at paragraph 5, LTSB gained none of those rights.

 

7 Notwithstanding the contents of paragraph 6, it is admitted and avered that since the termination identified at paragraph 4, LTSB and the Claimant have made demand of the Defendant for the payment of money the subject of this claim.

 

8 Incorporated within the sum demanded by the Claimant are sums claimed for their and/or LTSB's administration fees, late payment charges and like provisions. It is denied (if it be alleged) that the Claimant has incurred any such fees and charges, alternatively that such fees and charges if incurred accurately represent sums lost by the Claimant by reason of late payment. The Defendant avers the incorporation of such claims is penal and unenforceable at law.

 

9 Further and in any event, by reason of the matters set out at paragraphs 5 and 6 above and the requirements of section 87(1) of the Act, the steps taken by LTSB and/or the Claimant and identified at paragraphs 7 hereof were steps which LTSB and/or the Claimant were not entitled to take.

 

10 It is denied that LTSB assigned the agreement to the Claimant, alternatively that there was any valuable benefit in the agreement capable of being assigned to the Claimant.

 

11 In the circumstances the facts and matters set out in the Particulars of Claim do not give rise to an entitlement to claim any of the relief now sought by the Claimant.

 

12 The Claimant’s claim to be entitled to £1,253.25, to interest or to any other sum is denied.

 

I BELIEVE THAT THE CONTENTS OF THIS DEFENCE ARE TRUE.

Signed:

 

Dated: