ME v RBS, with a vengence!

[davidhannam]

After the usual rigmarole I have finally received the defence from Cobbets, with the courts reallocation questionnaire. On it, it says, there is a £100 fee if the claim is over £1500. My initial claim is for £945, so with the £80 initial court fee, I guess will be £1025. does this mean I do not have to pay the fee, or does it mean that with the additional RBSs’ costs it will be over £1500 so I do have to pay the £100?… I rang the court, but the, I guess receptionist, didn't really fill me with much confidence in his response. I really don’t want to balls it up now by not paying the £100 if I need to, but also don’t want to send money to the court and not get it back if I don’t need to.

 

 

Further more, I read the “Some people are making mistakes" warning within the RBS forum, about claiming for charges which are not penalties, what are these? (Sorry if being daft!)

 

 

In regard to “the banks charges are a disproportionate penalty and therefore unenforceable as they are contrary to common law”

 

What are the “clauses pursuant to which the charges were applied”

 

Were the charges applied due to a breach of contract on my behalf?

 

How do I answer, “please specify all facts relied on by the claimant in support of the contentions in ......

 

(charges were invalid under the unfair contracts terms act 1977 s.4 and under the unfair terms in consumer contracts regulations 1999 Para 8 and sch.2 (1)(e)…and unreasonable with the meaning of the supply of goods act 1982 s 15)

 

......and in particular please identify the contractual provisions that the claimant alleges are unenforceable by reference to the UCTA/the regulations.”

 

 

Thank you so much for your help!!!!!

[davidhannam]

any help would truely be gratefully recieved! buy you a few beers if ever in sunny Manchester

[Lauri]

sounds like your in a similar point to me, just waiting for the defence from cobbetts myself........look forward to hearing your advice and outcome!!!!

[tomba90]

I'm waiting on defence from Cobetts also. I have seen some info on the "extra charges".

 

How did you claim, Was it in person or over the moneyclaim site ?

[stacymason]

if the claim is for £1045 then no fee will be payable, RBS costs don't come into it!

 

Charges that are not penalties are like the Royalties Gold fee of £12 a month as this fee is for a service.

 

If the questions in the defence are under CPR part 18 then you don't need to respond as it is not relevant to the small claims track!

 

Oh and Im in Manchester if you need a court buddy! not that it will get that far!

[davidhannam]

if the claim is for £1045 then no fee will be payable, RBS costs don't come into it!

 

Charges that are not penalties are like the Royalties Gold fee of £12 a month as this fee is for a service.

 

If the questions in the defence are under CPR part 18 then you don't need to respond as it is not relevant to the small claims track!

 

Oh and Im in Manchester if you need a court buddy! not that it will get that far!

 

 

cheers! thats what i thought but didnt wanna balls it up this late in the game, just about finished my reply to their defence which ill post at some point later in hope for it being useful to someone else, as guessing cobbetts have the same defence letter template sitting on their desktop to print out quickly....more times ive read it more it seems like trying to make something dead siumple sound dead complicated!

 

ill keep you informed and may take u up on that offer if get that far...cheers!

 

 

p.s. tomba90... went via moneyclaim

[davidhannam]

“clauses pursuant to which the charges were applied"

 

"......and in particular please identify the contractual provisions that the claimant alleges are unenforceable by reference to the UCTA/the regulations.”

 

again, sorry but am i right in thinking all it is actually asking me is which of RBS' contract terms are applicable to my case, therefore which ones i am saying are invalid?

 

do i actually have to talk about the actual terms in the unfair contracts terms act 1977 s.4 , unfair terms in consumer contracts regulations 1999 Para 8 and sch.2 (1)(e) or supply of goods act 1982 s 15 ???

 

 

as other people have said, just seems to be making something simple seem amazingly complicated to intimidate! jack asses!

[tomba90]

Hi Davidhannam,

 

Would it be possible to see a copy of the letter you sent in response to the defence, might save me a couple of days confusion.....

[davidhannam]

sure, my internets down at home...just at work now so first op will prob b monday, hope that ok....wot did they stick in your defence letter?

[tomba90]

sure, my internets down at home...just at work now so first op will prob b monday, hope that ok....wot did they stick in your defence letter?

 

 

I haven't had one yet !!! Just the notification from the court. But expecting it anyday now !!!!

[davidhannam]

sorry, internets still down...ill stick it on my ipod and bring it to work to stick on 2moro...

[davidhannam]

Dear Sir or Madam:

 

 

I acknowledge the receipt of the defence posted by Cobbetts on behalf of Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS).

 

In Cobbetts defence response, they requested further information under CPR Part 18. The guidance that I have received indicates that CPR Part 18 does not apply to the small claims track and is therefore irrelevant in this case. I am sure that Cobbetts are already aware of this and I can therefore only conclude that the inquiry was intended to intimidate. However I am aware that Part 27.2(f) applies subject to paragraph 3 of part 27.2 which states that the Court of its own initiative may order a party to provide further information if it considers that is appropriate to do so. In acknowledgment of this and in good faith as well as respect for the court I will provide the following information.

 

 

Enclosed is a full list of the breakdown of charges with my account details.

 

 

 

 

 

In respect of the relevant clauses and contract terms, I sent a letter to the defendant, Royal Bank of Scotland (RBS) several months ago asking for such relation of charges. Unfortunately they did not send a copy of the original terms and conditions. I have endeavoured to obtain them in multiple trips to RBS branches, but the best I have managed to retrieve from them is a leaflet about charges.

 

In respect of the charges detailed on the enclosed spreadsheet, the relevant statements of the said leaflet are as follows;

 

· Where just a date is given, this relates to

o Service charge £10

§ Monthly maintenance charge

· “If you borrow more than your agreed overdraft limit you will be liable for a maintenance charge applied monthly, 16 days after the end of the charging period (or the next business day if this is a Saturday, Sunday or Bank Holiday). The charging period is normally in line with the date that we send your statement to you.”

 

· Paid referral £30 per day

o “If we pay a debit drawn on your account which results in an unarranged overdraft, a daily referral charge is payable and will be applied monthly on the sixth business day of the following month.”

 

· Unpaid items £38 per item (previously £35)

o “Payable when a cheque, standing order or Direct Debit is not paid due to there being insufficient funds available on your account”

 

· Unauthorised transaction fees £35

o Card misuse

§ “Payable when we are forced to pay an item which has been supported by cheque guarantee or Maestro although there are insufficient funds available on your account”

 

· “When your account is overdrawn in excess of any agreed overdraft limit, a maintenance charge will also be applied.”

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

However as stated in my original claim and letters the charges laid out in the original contract are unlawful penalty charges and cannot be legally enforced. i.e. charges in relation to unauthorised Overdraft, Referral, Chq/DD/SO Unpaid and Default Notice etc are a disproportionate penalty and therefore unenforceable as they are contrary to common law. Further, as a disproportionate penalty they are invalid under the Unfair (Contracts) Terms Act 1977 s.4 and under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. Para.8 and sch.2 (1) (e). In the event that the charges are not a penalty then they are unreasonable within the meaning of the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 s.15.

 

I hope this clarifies the situation for you.

 

 

Yours sincerely,

[stacymason]

David is this letter required to be sent as its the first one along these lines I've come across? I've responded to Cobbetts to say I'm not responding to CPR part 18 enquiries etc and enclosing spreadsheets, and I've filed AQ. is this like a response to their defence?

 

Stacy

[davidhannam]

i sent it to cobbetts and the court in response to their defence / further info letter. know didnt have to give em all that info but if in slightest chance may speed up my claim without em asking for more stuff thought itd b worth it

[tomba90]

Good Stuff Davidhannam,

 

I've still not had a comunication from Cobetts and there time will be up on the 8th Aug.......

[tomba90]

Well, recieved the defence today from Cobbetts, usual crap about cpr18. Will draft a letter tonight and post in my thread tomba90 vs RBS.

[tomba90]

Davidhannam,

 

Just a quick question, did you fill the questionaire from the court and pay the fee, it's not clear in the thread.

 

As mine is well over £1500.

 

Is the questionaire to do with cpr18 ??

[davidhannam]

hey, yeah filled in the questionaire, pretty sure u have to, only takes a minute, apparently because my claim was for less than 1.5k i didnt have to...so guessing unfortunately u will, but u can claim it back when u go to court....or more likely when they settle with u b4 hand!

[davidhannam]

...

[tomba90]

Hey David,

 

Just been speaking to the courts, do you know if Cobbetts have returned there court allocation form yet ??

[davidhannam]

yeah they did, got copy of it about 10 days ago i think

..... think its all done now....just waiting for court date....or settlement!

[davidhannam]

just got letter from cobbetts... something along the line of....

 

 

Our client considers that your challenge to its charges would fail in court….believes charges are fair, reasonable and transparent….have been applied strictly in accordance with your agreement …which it is satisfied complies with all applicable laws and regulations…our client is committed to ensuring the transparency of the information that it gives to its customers about the operation of its products. As such, our client does not believe that your claim has any prospect of succeeding.

 

However as gesture of goodwill, will offer £500 (my claim is £945 + 80 Court fee)

 

As long as

 

-Agree not to disclose to any third party

 

-Write to court withdrawing the claim

 

 

 

 

....so nice of them to offer me £500 even tho they believe i have no prospect in succeeding...

[davidhannam]

gonna reply....

 

In Reply to your letter dated 11th August. I accept the offer but not as a full and final settlement. I will accept it as part settlement and will be pursuing the rest of the money through the courts

 

 

.....

 

any further sugestions?

[gargoil]

Yup, start thinking on what your buying with your £945, sounds as if they are getting desperate and running out of ideas/excuses. Don't think It'll be a much longer wait now!!

[stacymason]

oooh I'll be expecting a letter today or tomorrow offering a similar amount hehehe, my first offer back in May was for £500 though so I'd expect more than that!