TK MAX and RLP -Incorrectly priced bag

[r.mayer]

I am writing as I experienced a very unpleasant situation while shopping with my mother in the TkMax Hammersmith store.

I understand that my actions were slightly wrong but I would be grateful for your advice. I'm describing the situation below.

While shopping my mother saw a Marc Jacobs bag with a loose price tag inside (about 500 pounds). We took out the tag and I asked the sales associates for the price. They answered that the bag is worth 49 pounds (as other bags were worth a similar amount). I just took it to the till and paid.

When we were coming out of the store the security directed us to the interview room where we were made to admit "a dishonest appropriation” of the item. The security staff were almost aggressive while talking to us. I was so stressed that I just admitted it. However, I did not swap the tags(I dropped the tag on the floor) and I asked the sales assistants for the price which they quoted. I just paid the amount I was requested to pay.

I would be grateful for any advice and especially the advice about the criminal action taken against me. Will my name figure in the criminal records? One of the security members mentioned the civil recovery but I am still not sure what does it mean.

Regards,

[postggj]

hi rmayer

tk max and civil recovery are well known on the forum

 

first thing were the police involved

[r.mayer]

It may sound stupid but I was so scared that I did not think reasonably... The security treathened me with the police and was making me to sing a paper in which I had to admit something that I haven't done...I really can't have criminal records because of my future career. However, I know that I just should talk to the police.

What can I do?

[r.mayer]

I said that I paid the amount they requested, but still they claimed that I was smiling while taking off the tag... I work within luxury industry and I know that the sales associate should ask about the price his/her manager if unsure.

They demanded 49 pounds - I just paid... I did not suggest the price or anything.

[postggj]

this is typical bully boy tacticts

if the police were not involved thats good news

did they ban you from the shop

 

in your situation i would try to get as much info as i could. you will prob get a letter asking for dosh. not sure but i think its about £80. this is a racket.

 

go back into the store or get a friend if its to much for you.

locate the bag in question and take a photo of the price tag on the bag to confirm.

ON YOUR MOBILE

 

tk max selling a £500 bag, thats a laugh.

 

its obviouse the price tag is a miss print.

 

you can also demand for a copy of the security tape in your defence. dont do that now.

after you have confirmed the correct price for the bag a simple letter to tk max head office should do the trick.

as no police involved you have no criminal record. they are only interested in your cash

 

THIS CAN BE SORTED QUITE QUICKLY

[r.mayer]

My mother is an elderly lady and the way they treated us was not acceptable. Threathening and shouting - just as we would steal this bag.

[r.mayer]

They banned us from the shop - really not a big deal for me

I'll pay them these 80 pounds, but I'm still angry with the way they treated us...

[postggj]

this goes on far to often ime afraid

it wont hurt to send a letter to tk max head office of your account.

£500 bag (realy)

error in loose price tag

same bags on sale for £49

treated badly

say you realise the security people were only doing there job but never been in that situation before you were not thinking straight.

ask them to look into it

 

you may even get a letter with no explanation that they matter is at an end.

 

or pay the bully boys there money and that also will be an end of the matter

[raydetinu]

They obviously saw you do it, so were suspicous. Did they tell you whst the correct price was? not £500 or even £200 I bet! What happened to the bag and the money you paid?

I doubt they will take you to court

[dx100uk]

me thinks you have been lucky here.

TBH you say you work in the luxury goods industry, you took a 'loose' tag out of the bag... urm.

 

you obviously knew or had a good idea what it was worth, i'd pay what they request, thats alot better than a criminal record & learn your lesson now. be honest in life.

 

dx

[questioning]

Loose tags are often found in goods, stuck to goods.

I think you were treated really bad.

There were similar priced bags on display,You asked how much, they said the price, you paid.

simple as that.

I would fight this with the advice offered by postggj.

 

security staff should not intimidate you and frighten you like that.

If the bag didn't have a tag, the sales assistant should have asked a superior for a price or taken it off sale.

They charged you the price, you paid,

I take it you have the receipt.

Good luck.

[ScarletPimpernel]

I seem to remember that there have been previous threads in which TK Maxx, loose price tags and Loss Prevention Recovery (the company TK Maxx use - little more than a DCA), have featured. I think a former member of TKM staff said that their security people have to meet targets, which may account for some of these dubious cases.

 

Unless the police were involved, and, after investigation they determned that a crime was committed, for which someone is charged and found guilty by a Court (or accepts a police caution), there's no criminal record.

 

I recall that in one case LPR became involved even after the police had decided no crime had been committed, claiming that their client (the shop), had still been put to expense. Quite how falsely accusing someone of shoplifting justifies sending them a bill is beyond me.

 

LPR use intimidatory methods because they know that they are winging it in most cases; unless they have changed practices recently it's likely that they will be in breach of CPUTR.

 

Don't pay anything; come back here and we will help you to get rid of them.

Edited August 25, 2008 by ScarletPimpernel

[Zamzara]

me thinks you have been lucky here.

TBH you say you work in the luxury goods industry, you took a 'loose' tag out of the bag... urm.

 

you obviously knew or had a good idea what it was worth, i'd pay what they request, thats alot better than a criminal record & learn your lesson now. be honest in life.

 

dx

 

This makes no sense. Read the OP's post again.

 

There is no scenario where removing a tag from something and asking the price can be dishonest, and a tag of £500 on an item in TKmaxx is obviously a mistake. This is in no way comparable to switching labels, as the store employee provided the price themselves.

 

Also the store cannot legally threaten criminal proceedings if the OP does not pay; to do so would be blackmail.

[surfaceagentx20]

What is the criminal action which has been taken against you (identify the precise charge and relevant legislation if known), who is prosecuting the criminal action and what is the forum / venue for the criminal action?

 

x20

[Prolix]

Surely basic contract law applies here. When you presented the bag at the counter and asked the price, you effectively made an offer when you then presented your payment. They accepted the offer by taking your money. Offer + Acceptance = Contract. I fail to see where you committed an offence.

[questioning]

She didn't commit an offence, its a [problem].

I might add, I certainly don't think she is dishonest, she new the bag wasn't £500. it was a loose tag, she threw it on the floor, often there are price tags with items which are obviously nothing to do with the item. What do most of us do.? I certainly disregard them and ask for the correct price. Then decide if I want to purchase it or not.

Security probably saw them comming and thought, perfect victims!

[gyzmo]

However there is the removal of the tag. For whatever arguments there are, the item came with an indication of the price at which the item would be sold (and we know that it is an invitation but it is rare for shops to entertain any haggling). By removing the tag, knowing that it was at that price, the OP sought to gain an advantage. It is the equivalent to me of switching price tags.

 

I am not defending TKMaxx or any other organisation, but the OP has engaged in dishonesty.

[questioning]

It was a loose tag, it could have been a tag for anything proberly.

Her act is certainly not the same as switching tags!

Switching price tags IS dishonest. The OP did not do this.

Edited August 25, 2008 by questioning

[gyzmo]

I'm not saying its the same - its akin to.

 

Put it this way. The OP saw the tag, say the price and chucked it on the floor.

 

The OP could have asked if the tag was correct for that item, or if known that it was for that item, checked the price was correct. But neither was done. However, like I said, I am not defending TK Maxx - they should have simply said that there was an error and taht the OP could either replace it with a refund or pay the extra.

[ScarletPimpernel]

TK Maxx's sticky price tags are designed to prevent them being swapped in the shop; they come apart when detached. Their hanging tags show an RRP and the TK Maxx price. I have seen a number of items that have extraneous tags, some of which have included an RRP, but which were nothing to do with TK Maxx; I've also come across items with no price tags. In general, on the rare occasions I shop at TK Maxx (why do people insist on dragging screaming children around shops - don't they have cellars?), I am wary of particularly good bargains, and ask staff to confirm the price before going to the till.

 

I don't doubt that some people do commit acts of dishonesty, but we all have a right to be considered innocent until proved guilty by the appropriate authorities, not some [problem] artistes who try to draw a DCA-like veil of respectability over their activities.

[surfaceagentx20]

Here's my ten cents:

 

I think it's going some distance too far to suggest the OP was guilty of dishonesty. There's a world of difference between dishonestly taking something by deceiving the trader into parting with a bag worth £x for a fraction of the price and asking the trader to confirm the price.

 

It is not possible to say beyond all reasonable doubt that the loose tag inside the bag truly indicated the price at which the bag was offered for sale. There were reasonable grounds to doubt the tag was the price at which the bag was offered for sale. Other similar bags were offered at a tenth the price and so I'm told, TKM don't sell bags at £500.00 a go.

 

By way of confirmation that the bag's correct price was £49.00, the OP asked a TKM salesperson. That person said the bag was for sale at £49.00. The OP went to a second person at the till and that person also confirmed the price was £49.00. These views on price were not expressed because the OP had attaxched a 'Buy Me I'm £49.00' ticket to the bag. The prices were confirmed independently. No doubt the person at the till was available to confirm the price from a bar code reading or something similar.

 

After checking with two TKM personnel and being advised by them both that the price was indeed £49.00, as were the other bags, the OP at that point was entitled to feel fully satisfied that the price at which the bag was for sale was £49.00, and further, that the tag which had sat loose inside the bag must have gotten there unintentionally.

 

There is no evidence that the OP said any words to the TKM people to influence them in the statement of the price or otherwise coerced them in some way.

 

Theft Act 1968 s2(1)(a) says:

"A person's appropriation of property belonging to another is not to be regarded as dishonest if he appropriates the property in the belief that he has in law the right to deprive the other of it, on behalf of himself or of a third person.

 

In R v Lawrence (1972), a taxi driver was convicted of theft where he had charged a fare of £6.00 for a journey for which the proper fare was only £0.50. On appeal his conviction was quashed. It was accepted by the Court of Appeal that the taxi dirver had not told his passenger that the proper fare was only £0.50, but for there to have been a theft it was necessary to prove the taxi driver took the £6.00 without the passenger's consent. He hadn't. The passenger had offered it.

 

In my opinion, the OPs conduct comes nowhere near the standard of misconduct of which Lawrence was accused and which misconduct was not enough to convict him. The only conduct judged by others to be misconduct is the act of separating the bag from the loose ticket. As far as I know, that isn't an offence.

 

x20

[ScarletPimpernel]

Surfaceagent, you might find this snippet from RLP's website of interest:

 

In seeking to recover the cost of time and money spent by our client in anticipation of, or as a result of, your wrongful actions our client relies upon the case of British Motor Trade Association -v- Salvadori [1949] Ch 556, as approved and extended by the more recent decision of Mrs Justice Gloster, DBE in R & V Versicherung AG -v- Risk Insurance and Re-Insurance Solutions SA and others [2006] EWHC 42 (Comm). These cases are authority for the proposition that both the cost of loss prevention measures and the cost of internal staff time spent in investigating and/or mitigating your wrongful actions are claimable in cases of this nature without the need to prove loss of profit or revenue.

RLP conduct aggressive collection procedures, referring to those not charged with any offence as 'offenders'. This thread involves a case where police decided there was no crime, yet RPL still pursued. I would be interested in your views.

[surfaceagentx20]

ScarletP,

 

Wonders will never cease. I'll consider the stuff and post an answer here in due course.

 

x20

[merlin100]

You could say that you were held against your will by the security staff.

If they held you in a room and wouldnt let you go without informing the police - thats unlawful imprisonment.

I would. Certainly.

[r.mayer]

Thank you for all the advice.

I'm a law student and thats why I'm so angry. The security staff uses people's lack of knowledge...

As someone mentioned above, the offer made by the sales assistant was a counter-offer, therefore the previous price(even if it was originally 500) was not valid.

I would feel guilty and I would not discuss this matter if I would have swapped the tags - this would be a crime.

On the other hand, I got really scared by the police threat - I can not have any criminal records because of my future job. It was really stupid because I should let the qualified people to look at the whole situation. Instead I started crying and I could not think properly.Moreover I was worried about my mum, as I didn't want her to experience this humilitaion.

It would be hard to win with TK Maxx and I have no money for solicitors. The security guy made me sign a banning notice and made me admit "dishonesty". It was probably recorded so it would be almost impossible to win my claim.