Natwest LOAN CCA HELP!!!

[dacascos42]

This is what I received from a Miss Jo Kwok from the OFT:

 

If a creditor/owner fails to comply with a valid request within a period of 12 days (not including the date of receipt of the request) he may not enforce the agreement at all. This prevents enforcement with or without a court order. If a default lasts for a month (for example a calendar month) it constitutes an offence. We understand your concerns in this matter but please do remember however that once the creditor/owner complies with the request albeit out of time, he may once again enforce the agreement.

 

A ‘true copy’ of an agreement principally consists of the terms and conditions of the agreement and the statutory content of the agreement. The name, address and signature of the debtor do not have to be provided. Additionally, the creditor must supply the total sum paid under the agreement by the debtor; the total sum which has become payable under the agreement but remains unpaid; and the total sum which is to become payable under the agreement by the debtor (the latter two must include the various amounts comprised in that total sum and the date when each is/was due). However, the copy must be a copy. It need not be exact on immaterial points, but it cannot be a conjectured reconstruction. If the trader has no original copy, the trader will have difficulty showing that he has complied with the regulation by supplying a ‘true copy’, since nobody would know what was in the original. When the trader comes to enforce the debt in court, he needs to have a signed copy of the agreement in order to enforce. As the law stands currently he cannot otherwise.

Given the reconstructed copy is completely different from the original it cannot be a true copy and again it is NOT signed and they don't have a signed copy on file.

[paulwlton]

In your case it is not a "true copy"

[dacascos42]

So, the question is what to do next?

[paulwlton]

So, the question is what to do next?

 

I would make an appointment with TS and ask them to act on your behalf.

[dacascos42]

Already got Keith Fletcher from TS looking into it but have yet to get feedback even though I have tried emailing and calling.

[dacascos42]

Sent a letter to Richard Hemsly to tell him he has misconceptions about what they have to supply in regards to the CCA and that so far they have not done this, got a letter back from haed office saying that in light of my latest letter they are contacting those involved and are going to investigate and then give me a final desicion from the bank executive.

[dacascos42]

Received a letter back from Richard Hemsley stating that although they have lost the original agreement the reconstructed one stands as a true copy and they have satisfied my CCA request. Also he has told me they will not return the money they have yaken whilst they are in default.

 

I have sent all letters, documents and emails off to the ICO to see if they can investigate. Still have not heard from RBS head office but did send them a letter regarding the one I got from RH and asked them if they agree with his statement.

[dacascos42]

Just a quick question, who has to legally look into any CCA complaints we make as a consumer. I have contacted FOS, ICO, TS, OFT and FSA with my complaint. FOS are investigating, TS don't seem to care so who can I complain to about them?. ICO said they only deal with the Data Protection Act, OFT said they don't look at individual cases and refered me to consumer direct who then refered me to OFT and FOS.

 

I have also emailed (and posted) a letter to RBS head office but would like to know if anyone has a contact for the new CEO of RBS. So far I only get customer relations managers spouting on about them compliying.

 

I would also like to know that if a creditor reproduced an agreement knowing it was not as the original and then used this on their system as the agreement would it come under section 2 of the fraud act 2006 'fraud by mis representation'?

[paulwlton]

Trading Standards are the ones that should take up your complaint.

 

There are a number of sections in the FA2006 worth looking at.

[dacascos42]

Right, I have been back and forth with NatWest/RBS regarding my loan agreement. Even though they have admitted to not being able to find it they continue to rely upon the reconstructed one as 'true copy'.

 

I then asked them if they would be so kind as to supply me with a signed copy of the agreement so they could back up their claim even though they are not obliged to do so it would show willing and that if there was no signed agreement and they were using the new recreated one on file then they were committing fraud.

 

There response was that a hand written true copy of an original loan agreement does not have to be signed (it's not a true copy) or include dates (because they don't know the date the form was signed). As the loan agreement was reconstructed from information held on the database it is not fraud. (agreement is not signed and no signed copy exists)

 

They commented about the fact I got a PPI refund so the financial information on the new one is different for that reason however if it was a 'true copy' it would not matter whether I got a PPI refund as it would have to be a copy of the agreement that was signed when the loan was taken out therefore their argument is irrelevant.

 

They then go on to state that I had the loan in 2005 and paid the monthly payments and did not question them and did not request a copy of the loan agreement until the middle of this year. Again this is irrelevant as I have the right to request a copy agreement whenever I choose.

 

They are sticking to the fact that the agreement is valid. However I have never received a letter from an executive of the bank, it is always a Manager of group customer relations.

 

I now have a FOS adjudicator on the case who I have spoken to, he says that they have probably lost the original but does not think that I will get the payments back whilst they are in default. He was also going on about the fact they gave me a copy of the agreement when I got the loan and why I wanted another one. He also wanted to know what outcome I was hoping for, he said that it could be proved I took the loan which I am not disputing, it is the agreement I am disputing and the fact they have lost the original, lied and created a new one and continue to take payments for an agreement that is not executed.

 

I do not know what to do to be honest as every avenue I have tried gets me nowhere. If you take the CCA for black and white Natwest did not and have not complied. This I have told them time and time again and still they say they have.

 

What to do next?

[2Grumpy]

They have responded to your CCA request.

 

What is in question is whether it is a valid response.

 

They have recreated the agreement based on their records.

 

You can show that there are material differences between the original & what they have supplied.

 

s77-78 are in the act so that you can be sure of the terms of the original agreement. As they have got it wrong in several parts that you know of, you cannot trust any part of it. They obviously don't have sufficient information on their database to recreate the agreement accurately. A CCA request would reveal what information they are relying on to do the recreation. Anything short of a document/template reference along with a change-control history to show that the correct version has been supplied & the actual values inserted into it, plus an original blank copy would be insufficient

 

Any argument about you having a copy of the agreement at the beginning of the contract is irrelevant - so did NatWest. They have mislaid their copy too and neither of you know the precise terms that were agreed and whether the original agreement was enforceable.

[JonCris]

Also remember if you litigate & they claim the agreement is valid in their 'statement of truth' it's important to question the signatory as to their involvement in constructing the agreement. If you can show they had no such involvement (which is highly probably as it's often the lawyer who signs) then you can discredit their evidence in the eyes of the court

[dacascos42]

Will have to wait and see what the FOS has to say as RBS customer relations said will no longer reply to my letters. That is why I am trying to find the CEO contact and see what he has to say if anything as I don't want to deal with lower management.

[dacascos42]

Update........

 

Since filing a complaint with the FOS Natwest have stopped taking the payments out. Since July they have been taking payments without my consent by internal bank transfers and setting up standing orders but this month no money has been removed.

 

Will wait to see what happens next.

[dacascos42]

Spoke too soon, money was taken on the 22nd, b*st*rds.

 

have emailed head office to voice my disappointment in them (like that's gonna do anything).

[paulwlton]

Spoke too soon, money was taken on the 22nd, b*st*rds.

 

have emailed head office to voice my disappointment in them (like that's gonna do anything).

 

They obviously believe they've complied.

[dacascos42]

HI all,

 

been a while and I have had the result back from the FOS, not good as they are siding with Natwest. I'm a touch confused because they are basing the result on the fact Natwest can prove the loan exists but this was never the complaint. The complaint was that Natwest had not complied and have still not complied with my request.

 

Natwest also told the FOS they they had suspended payments in August but I can prove no suspension has been in place and the money has still been taken by Natwest. It seems the non complience with the Consumer Credit Act is irrelevant, as long as a creditor can prove a loan was set up that's all the FOS need.

 

Natwest also sent the FOS a computer print out of a credit agreement which differed from the hand written one they sent me which they claimed was a true copy, but it did match the original one. I am wondering whether the FOS forwarded a copy of their copy they had from my PPI claim to prove it was in joint names and Natwest then entered this info onto a computer agreement and faxed it accross as the agreement made was never computer generated and all hand written. I'm also sure that it had a seperate signiture document which is another reason for my request as all I have is the breakdown.

 

What would be my next course of action, I need help in forcing Natwest to provide me with the complete document including signitures and if they cannot does this not show that the FOS investigation was flaud.

 

Any help at this stage would be appreciated

[mikek]

1) why do you not open an account with a different bank? the cooperative bank and nationwide open basic accounts to people with defaults even. You should do this as soon as possible. Natwest will keep taking payments from accounts you hold with them or the RBS group. So do something about it.

 

2) why did you take the case to the FOS? unless there is a case of fraud, the FOS will always tell you that you should repay money you borrowed. THEY DO NOT HAVE THE POWERS TO DECLARE AN AGREEMENT UNENFORCEABLE. THIS CAN BE BE DONE BY THE COURT ONLY. You are wasting your time with FOS, give the case to a no win no fee solicitor to declare it unenforceable if you think the agreement is flawed in some way.

 

3) If they do not give you the signed agreement, follow the procedure for pre-action disclosure. There is a thread for this. The court can force them to disclose what they hold. It costs £40 and you will not be liable for their costs if you follow the procedure correctly.

[dacascos42]

The complaint to the FOS was not regarding the enforcability of the loan but the CCA request made to Natwest and the fact Natwest did not send the correct documentation and continued to take money.

 

Also found out that the FOS faxed Natwest the original breakdown from my PPI complaint so Natwest could recreate it and fax it back to the FOS as a true copy, this surley cannot be allowed can it. As it was a compaint regarding what was supplied to me was not correct then the FOS should not have passed this info onto Natwest as it gave Natwest the chance to recreate the document using info provided by the FOS and then send it back to the FOS making my case for non complience with my CCA nul and void.

[JonCris]

I suggest that you take that up 1st with the FSA under the heading tampering with the evidence then follow that up with complaints to both your MP & the Ombudsman

[dacascos42]

Hi all been a long time but starting the process again, this time taking the N244 route as suggested in other posts to see if I can get the information I require (especially signed agreement) even though I have been told they do not hold the original agreement.

 

Will follow step by step with the 3 letters giving them enough time to reply and if nothing then the N244 via the court. My question is what happens if they are not forthcoming with the information via the court request, where do I stand and what action would be next.

 

Gonna be anither long hall but have had luck with MBNA and CAP ONE and feel the energy coming back for another fight.

 

Will keep all posted....

[Guest MamaG1]

Would like to be updated on this pls. I am in a similar situation, still trying to finslioise the PPI refunds they have paid into the loan accounts that they have not produced CCA to me for.

 

They have also said they have paid some back into the current accounthtye closed that I do not have use of anymore??. I am not sure what step to take next, pls advise

[dacascos42]

Got another one for you, after entering into a hardship agrrement with Natwest last year due to redundancy they have now suspended access to my account and are demanding the arrears from the hardship payments 10 days after the hardship agreement ended.

 

I cannot access my account either online or via cash points and have to phone them up to arrange for me to go into a branch and take money out. This has come out of the blue with no warning as I used my card on 24/06/10 and have now got a default notice on the 25/06/10 dated 24/06/10.

 

I understand direct debits and standing orders will still be paid and I am in the process of arranging funds to be paid into another account but wondered if I am able to go into a branch and set up a new standing order for a one off payment so I can move the rest of the money so I have access to it and whether they have to adhere to the request.

 

Any help would be grateful

[dacascos42]

got them to remove the block on my account, gentlman on the phone said it should not have been blocked until default was in force so have emptied account into another one.

 

I also tried to arrange a payment plan but no luck as they gave me 3 options, new loan for arrears, 6 months at a whopping £800 or wait for defailt and recoveries take over.

 

Useless, what about the banking code, try to do what they can for their customers.

[dacascos42]

Hi, been along time but RBS dispute still going. Long story short, after hardship agreement ended RBS tried to get me to consolidate the loan however they wanted to add the backpayments to the total ammount owing

 

£5000 debt owed inclusive of interest, £3000 arrears still only amounts to a total debt of £5000 (of which £3000 overdue).

 

What collections suggested was take the £5000 + £3000 = £8000 plus interest on top of that, this in essence would double the debt owed and also it would be charging double the interest as the original £5000 debt had already been calculated with interest included.

 

I obviously declined this generous offer, then I was bombarded with Triton letters and phone calls but I soon put an end to that by threatening them by email and including the OFT and Stephen Hester on ALL emails. They then resorted to sending a letter from Green and Co solicitors (RBS) again I replied direct and heard nothing for months until March 2011 when I got a letter from Shoosmiths solicitors threatening court action.

 

Now, after receiving this, speaking to the OFT and reading the CCA 1974 it was clear that whilst RBS do NOT have a signed agreement as they have admitted then under the OFT guidlines RBS should not be using a solicitor to threaten court action. Shoosmiths gave me 14 days to reply which I did direct via email so I had proof of contact and explianed the situation and asked if they had a copy of the signed agreement from RBS to base their case on and if I could have a copy. again sent copies to OFT, I have sent a further 3 emails to them but have yet to get a reply back.

 

Has anyone dealt with these before or had this company ignore them. I tend to copy the OFT into all my emails now so I have a third party receiving proof of emails as they are looking into the conduct of RBS as they have a copy of everything going back to 2008.

Edited April 27, 2011 by dacascos42