Employment Tribunal - you CAN win !!!

[sheiladip]

I have been in dispute with my employer since July 2008. I tried to access the funding from my insurance policy, but unless you have a short, cheap case, they are not worth anything, in fact the solicitors employed by the insurance made things worse.

I am working on two appeals and have not got time to read all the messages. But I just wanted to recommend the book by Edward Jacobs produced by LAG...I wish I had this one at the start. If you are going to appeal it is essential. I applied for an appeal and was turned down. After reading the book I realise that i was putting forward very strong and valid points of law - but I was not using their jargon.

I would like to join something to report how the judges treat a litigant in person. I observed tribunals and most of the judges are intimidating, they even shout and constantly criticise. At my hearing on the first day I had this treatment. I am a strong person but I was tempted not to go in on the second day. On the second day there were a load of observers and the judge just listened to me - the impatience of the day before disappeared! I would like to observe more and do something about this. Most tribunal judges have forgotton that they are supposed to uphold the law. They think they are above the law - because they are allowed to get away with it.

Got too much to do ........

[tay1]

in same situation as above and tribunal very soon i am very nervous about this and this whole process has been a nightmare both emotionally and financially also having worked since 16 only able to claim basic benefit only and nothing else and only for 6 mths, which ends soon. Reading the posts makes me very unsure that i even have a chance and its not about money its about the principle and clearing my name

[wildm]

Claiming benefit aren't you the lucky one as a married woman I am a no-person except for tax purposes as is my student sum so you work out the REAL unemployment figures which are massaged out of all proportion I would say treble them then you might be close to the real figures. Then there is the minimum wage rates x three different rates of course and fixed term and temporary jobs we are back to Victorian times make no mistake.

I digress in truth I would honestly just accept that you have been steam-rollered/treated disgracefully etc as a working person you have no name to clear only rich people have that and their dignity and all the other lip-service titles such as equality etc it is a sad state of affairs but a If you had told me any of this during my 30 years' of working I would not have believed me either but the fact is all workers will eventually be equal but equal to third world countries are now that it seems is the aim. You have no rights, rules aren't worth the paper they are written on and as for clearing your name you aren't rich enough to have one if you are at a Tribunal.

I was called many things in court apparently I did not even know the difference between summer and winter save yourself the heartache if you protest in any waythey charge you the costs. It's called bullying and in law that does not exist.

[billybobynumeroduo]

This thread is really upsetting that so many people have been treated so badly.

 

Thanks for Edward Jacobs book I may have to see if anyone has a copy I can borrow.

 

I have a Oral hearing 3 (10) coming up at the beginning of next year....I have had bias in my case, let down by solicitor, incompetent barrister, legal cover that doesnt say what it does on the tin and judges that dont speak up for the employer and extreme tragedy to go with that.....I think a miracle from the Gods is in order.

 

Whoever said I'd rather die than let them win... thats the spirit!!!

 

good luck people may the force be with you!

[skaatiii]

I just wanted to say - despite the horror stories on here (which im troubled to hear about) You can win!

 

I did, the most difficult part is trying to understand the law element and from my experience they do not seem to be interested in HR issues but solely Employment Law issues i.e. in my case I thought we would win on the way the redundancy process was carried out and after 3 days of hearing (which I thought went badly for us because our statement wasnt even questioned with the employer but was only read by the three judges in private) I was told it was a clear case of the company getting it wrong when they issued the HR1 because my department wasnt included so they only declared 30 days not 60 days notice. I didnt know about this until I produced the document (which had foruntately been given to me by someone doing the redundancy process) The company had a top notch law expert and didnt even declare the HR1 so the Judge was not happy LOL and said in summary that if I had produced that doc in the first ten minutes it would have been over and done with on day 1 and I would have been awarded the costs asked for (bout 20K) instead he awarded it as a 'technical error' and only awarded me 2 weeks instead of 10 times that but I still walked away with 12k and no regrets - but the real worth was knowing and having it legally recorded that the company were 'acting badly'

[wildm]

A judge that read the papers.......wow now there's a novelty. Mine had 3 days' allocated at the CMD but only took a half day so clever was she then throughout she asked their rather dashing barrister or anyone from their side really to decipher things, what with the bowing and leaving the room backwards which apparently impressed the pathetic excuse for a woman and her little tantrums, it was enough to make you puke. The best bit was the judgement where she went all Dickensian and referred to me as Mr Micawber .......... a real joker with a big fat pension accumulating, I hope she reaps what she sows.

[udaya7]

How do they get away with it? I recently had an employment tribunal as my employer dismissed me for gross misconduct. The accusations were completely trumped up and the reason I was dismissed was for for personal reasons of the manager. Even though all the truth came out at the tribunal and the manager actually admitted that there were no complaints about me from any members of staff I lost my case. I was representing myself. I had a background in a legal position. I spent 12 months familiarising myself in employment law in preparation for the tribunal. I even had advice from employment solicitor friends but they were unable to represent due to unavailable funding. However I was confident to do it myself. I had more than plenty of enough evidence to back up my argument and cross examined my manager and three other witnessess who crumbled before the judges. One of their witnessess lied under oath and was proved to do so. This was all going in my favour, or so I thought, and so would anyone who witnessed the tribunal. It could not have been a more clear cut case and I was confident it would win. Unbelievably though that is not what happened at all. The judge had managed to completely turn all my evidence and hard work around to suit my employer. The person who lied was let off as the judge said we will ignore her evidence as it was not reliable. I was sat listening to his judgement with my jaw on the floor. The judge even went so far as to say "this is a reputable organisation you worked for" almost implying how dare you say these things about them. Upon receiving the written reasons some six months later I appealed the decision as the judge had ignored evidence, misunderstood crucial documents and had been bias. I have just received a short note back from the EAT notifying me that I did not have grounds for appeal but with no reasons for their decision. I was just wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience and if there is any more I can do. I had a very strong case but thanks to a completely bias judge I have been left a little traumatised by the whole event. I have no faith in the employment justice system but know that people do win. What do you have to do to convince these judges that there are rogue employers out there? Nobody goes through these things if they have not suffered an injustice at the hands of their employers do they?

 

Hi there,

I am really sorry to hear your story. I have been through the same thing. Who is your ET Judge and who is your EAT Judge gave you the paper reply.

 

Thank you

[Emmzzi]

Hi there,

I am really sorry to hear your story. I have been through the same thing. Who is your ET Judge and who is your EAT Judge gave you the paper reply.

 

Thank you

 

This is quite an old thread. Do you need any help yourself?

[sheiladip]

How do they get away with it? I recently had an employment tribunal as my employer dismissed me for gross misconduct. The accusations were completely trumped up and the reason I was dismissed was for for personal reasons of the manager. Even though all the truth came out at the tribunal and the manager actually admitted that there were no complaints about me from any members of staff I lost my case. I was representing myself. I had a background in a legal position. I spent 12 months familiarising myself in employment law in preparation for the tribunal. I even had advice from employment solicitor friends but they were unable to represent due to unavailable funding. However I was confident to do it myself. I had more than plenty of enough evidence to back up my argument and cross examined my manager and three other witnessess who crumbled before the judges. One of their witnessess lied under oath and was proved to do so. This was all going in my favour, or so I thought, and so would anyone who witnessed the tribunal. It could not have been a more clear cut case and I was confident it would win. Unbelievably though that is not what happened at all. The judge had managed to completely turn all my evidence and hard work around to suit my employer. The person who lied was let off as the judge said we will ignore her evidence as it was not reliable. I was sat listening to his judgement with my jaw on the floor. The judge even went so far as to say "this is a reputable organisation you worked for" almost implying how dare you say these things about them. Upon receiving the written reasons some six months later I appealed the decision as the judge had ignored evidence, misunderstood crucial documents and had been bias. I have just received a short note back from the EAT notifying me that I did not have grounds for appeal but with no reasons for their decision. I was just wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience and if there is any more I can do. I had a very strong case but thanks to a completely bias judge I have been left a little traumatised by the whole event. I have no faith in the employment justice system but know that people do win. What do you have to do to convince these judges that there are rogue employers out there? Nobody goes through these things if they have not suffered an injustice at the hands of their employers do they?

 

WHAT CAN WE DO?

I have tried to complain about the lack of accountability of the judges - They are supposed to comply with a duty to give reasons and describe the evidence they used in their decisions. There is a habit of using quotes from past cases without explaining how they relate to the case they are adjudicating on. See my blog!

I am now attempting to compile a dossier of these decisions in my quest to improve the system. I have attempted to make disclosures to all of those in highest authority. I would like to hear the full details of your story.

I have started a blog on blog spot. I have called it tribunals and tribulations. ( no spaces) It is an ongoing process and I need more material - not to mention more time! I am trying not to let this take over my life, but it is not something that we should be ignoring. More people need to make their voice heard.

I have observed some employment tribunals and the majority of judges are rude, intimidating and dismissive of evidence. I have been told by ALL of the lawyers I have been in contact with that the outcome of a case 'depends on the mood of the judge and whether he likes you or not.' I have spoken to many and not one of them had any faith in the system.

[sheiladip]

This thread is really upsetting that so many people have been treated so badly.

 

Thanks for Edward Jacobs book I may have to see if anyone has a copy I can borrow.

 

I have a Oral hearing 3 (10) coming up at the beginning of next year....I have had bias in my case, let down by solicitor, incompetent barrister, legal cover that doesnt say what it does on the tin and judges that dont speak up for the employer and extreme tragedy to go with that.....I think a miracle from the Gods is in order.

 

Whoever said I'd rather die than let them win... thats the spirit!!!

 

good luck people may the force be with you!

 

WHAT CAN WE DO?

I have tried to complain about the lack of accountability of the judges - They are supposed to comply with a duty to give reasons and describe the evidence they used in their decisions. There is a habit of using quotes from past cases without explaining how they relate to the case they are adjudicating on. See my blog!

I am now attempting to compile a dossier of these decisions in my quest to improve the system. I have attempted to make disclosures to all of those in highest authority. I would like to hear the full details of your story.

I have started a blog on blog spot. I have called it tribunals and tribulations. ( no spaces) It is an ongoing process and I need more material - not to mention more time! I am trying not to let this take over my life, but it is not something that we should be ignoring. More people need to make their voice heard.

I have observed some employment tribunals and the majority of judges are rude, intimidating and dismissive of evidence. I have been told by ALL of the lawyers I have been in contact with that the outcome of a case 'depends on the mood of the judge and whether he likes you or not.' I have spoken to many and not one of them had any faith in the system.

Edward Jacobs Book is excellent - endorsed by the Senior President of Tribunals - I identified my 'points of law' using this book - all backed up with indisputable evidence - but it might as well be fiction. The judges do and say whatever they like and do not comply with the rules.

[billybobynumeroduo]

Hi Sheila,

 

thanks for your post.

 

For all interested here is the link to Sheila's blog http://tribunalsandtribulations.blogspot.co.uk/

 

It would seem you also have been let down not only by your employer but by the tribunal system also? I tried to read your blog on this but the link did not work. http://sheilalawrenceneediprose.blogspot.co.uk

 

Good luck with the improvement of the system. Very honorable thing to do! It would appear that the system has already changed and not for the better. What with introducing fees and cutting legal aid.

 

By all means if you would like to hear the full details of my story: feel free to browse and read my employment related posts on this forum and I will dig out the most important parts and post them up for all to see!

 

I agree totally with what you say and applaud you for telling it how it is! Be careful, as it does take over your life as I know only too well, however is good character building and life experience as I am sure many on here will know.

 

All the best and look forwards to hear further from you

 

BB

 

PS catchy title Tribunals and tribulations

[billybobynumeroduo]

How do they get away with it? I recently had an employment tribunal as my employer dismissed me for gross misconduct. The accusations were completely trumped up and the reason I was dismissed was for for personal reasons of the manager. Even though all the truth came out at the tribunal and the manager actually admitted that there were no complaints about me from any members of staff I lost my case. I was representing myself. I had a background in a legal position. I spent 12 months familiarising myself in employment law in preparation for the tribunal. I even had advice from employment solicitor friends but they were unable to represent due to unavailable funding. However I was confident to do it myself. I had more than plenty of enough evidence to back up my argument and cross examined my manager and three other witnessess who crumbled before the judges. One of their witnessess lied under oath and was proved to do so. This was all going in my favour, or so I thought, and so would anyone who witnessed the tribunal. It could not have been a more clear cut case and I was confident it would win. Unbelievably though that is not what happened at all. The judge had managed to completely turn all my evidence and hard work around to suit my employer. The person who lied was let off as the judge said we will ignore her evidence as it was not reliable. I was sat listening to his judgement with my jaw on the floor. The judge even went so far as to say "this is a reputable organisation you worked for" almost implying how dare you say these things about them. Upon receiving the written reasons some six months later I appealed the decision as the judge had ignored evidence, misunderstood crucial documents and had been bias. I have just received a short note back from the EAT notifying me that I did not have grounds for appeal but with no reasons for their decision. I was just wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience and if there is any more I can do. I had a very strong case but thanks to a completely bias judge I have been left a little traumatised by the whole event. I have no faith in the employment justice system but know that people do win. What do you have to do to convince these judges that there are rogue employers out there? Nobody goes through these things if they have not suffered an injustice at the hands of their employers do they?

 

Hi Bunny seems very similar to my case, how are you getting on these days?

[billybobynumeroduo]

This is quite an old thread. Do you need any help yourself?

 

Hi Emmzzi,

 

long time. Is an old thread however still very much a relevant and alive thread!

[Emmzzi]

Sheila,

 

you say in your blog the ET has rendered you virtually unemployable.

 

If I were employing for you any role and googled your name and found that blog - I would not employ you. Many employers use google as a source of information.

 

I strongly advise taking it down; it is overly long, rambling, and bitter. Would you employ the author?

[sheiladip]

Sheila,

 

you say in your blog the ET has rendered you virtually unemployable.

 

If I were employing for you any role and googled your name and found that blog - I would not employ you. Many employers use google as a source of information.

 

I strongly advise taking it down; it is overly long, rambling, and bitter. Would you employ the author?

 

 

I am unemployable so your concern about future employers is not relevant. I was employed in the same profession for my whole career. I have applied for many differing jobs, but was only short listed and interviewed for one. They told me that I was beaten only because the other person had more experience in the role. whatever I apply for it will be the same - I have no other experience. I was looking at transferable skills, but ultimately It will always be justifiable and fair to employ the person who has proven skills in the field. I am now 60, so had the government not changed the retirement age I would have been properly retired. It is also difficult to get shortlisted for jobs at my age.

 

Re the blog: perhaps I should have started a website - or something else. Blogs are usually shorter and not so serious - I think? But I have to use the skills I have. Overly long - you cannot tell part of the story. It makes it sound petty.

Bitter - yes I have good reason to be bitter. But I am now trying to channel that bitterness into something positive. I genuinely did not believe the lawyers when they described the tribunal system. I thought they were just trying to downgrade my claim. But my experience and observations have shown that they are telling the truth. Whether you win or lose at the employment tribunal depends on the mood of the judge and whether he/she likes you. The majority of judges do not like anyone who makes a stand against bullying, or even disagrees with 'management.' You are automatically in the wrong.

I will be posting my Application to Appeal on the blog, unless anyone can tell me a better way to share it. It IS easily accessible to anyone. If you are interested in law it is an informative story. I am not just rambling and bitter. I have researched thoroughly and identified my points of law from Edward Jacob's book. They are backed up with up to date caselaw and indisputable evidence.

Tribunals are open to the public. I would like to observe more and set up a tribunal watch. The decisions do not comply with the rules of natural justice and are not explained, even if 'reasons' are supplied. I said at one point that all I needed was a judge who would listen to the truth and who believed in justice. They seem to be rare.

What do you make of the judge's mantras that I have described to date? Lord Justice Underhill has identified this habit. I am not making it all up.

[Emmzzi]

I'm not interested in becoming part of a crusade; I am just highlighting how an employer may see things. If you are cool with that, it is up to you.

 

As I often say, "fair" is not always "what the law says."

 

I have, however, seen people drive themselves to illness due to their inability to let go of a thing.

 

The best revenge is living well.

[sheiladip]

Thank you

It was the bullying in the workplace that was making me ill - and some of my colleagues had and were suffering as well.

I am not going to drive myself to illness. I have tried to balance my life and found inspiration in quotes from many people. Now I do not have any deadlines I can assuage my frustration in telling my story and attempting to make disclosures about the gross injustice that is taking place. If I do nothing I feel ill!

If 'fair' is not what the law says then it is an ass.

[Emmzzi]

Just be careful you don't stray into areas of libel !

 

It is well documented that the law is an ass.

[billybobynumeroduo]

Hi Sheila,

 

I read your response have yet to read your blog!

 

You say you intend to appeal....what point of law are you appealing on....Perversity?

Even if perversity is proved and established, it can be a huge obstacle to overcome and sway the judge/ your case to a favorable outcome.

 

At what stage of the appeal are you exactly? Have you been granted an appeal? Have you been granted an oral hearing 3(10)

 

I am going to back you if you want to go for the appeal. What do you intend to do after the appeal if you lose, or you don't make it through to the next stage.

 

Would be interested to know where you are in the scheme of things.

 

I wont beat around the bush and I am surprised no one else on here is saying it:

 

 

An employment tribunal which is running off of funding from the big businesses.

A. Whose interest does it serve?

 

Those who are putting in to it? or those who want to take (legitimately, and IMO have every right to might I add)

 

-Let me rehash and rejig what all the members on this forum are saying: The Judges/ Tribunal and Employers (J+T+E) are basically on the same side.

 

-You and me and everyone else on here is on the other side. The scales are hardly equally balanced.

 

You really need a clear cut case which is blatant discrimination for the judge to side with you and, in effect, chastise one of their own.

 

Good luck people

Edited November 10, 2013 by billybobynumeroduo

[Emmzzi]

 

I wont beat around the bush and I am surprised no one else on here is saying it:

 

 

An employment tribunal which is running off of funding from the big businesses.

A. Whose interest does it serve?

 

Those who are putting in to it? or those who want to take (legitimately, and IMO have every right to might I add)

 

-Let me rehash and rejig what all the members on this forum are saying: The Judges/ Tribunal and Employers (J+T+E) are basically on the same side.

 

-You and me and everyone else on here is on the other side. The scales are hardly equally balanced.

 

 

Totally NOT what I am saying!

 

I believe judges are there to serve the law.

 

You may not agree with the law. That is not the judges fault. At that stage you discuss a change in the law with your MP. You don]t call the judge out for doing their job!

[billybobynumeroduo]

Ooops

 

edit to the equation: J+T+E+S+B> C

 

Abbrev: S='s solicitor and B='s Barister. C is the claimant.

 

Definitely not on equal footing sorry people its one sided unless you can prove outright you are in the right and the Employer has done you wrong.

 

Good luck

[billybobynumeroduo]

I know you are not saying this Emzzii, but many people who had been not granted a fair hearing are saying this!

 

I always thought a fair hearing was a basic human right?

 

You may not agree with the law. That is not the judges fault. At that stage you discuss a change in the law with your MP. You don]t call the judge out for doing their job!

 

If you are referring to my good self I agree with the law as it is an integral part of society, what I dont agree with is blatant discrimination.

EU bigwigs can make up human rights till they are blue in the face and we can pass employment legislation until the crows come home. Doesnt mean pipsqueak when we are dealing with hard cash.

 

My appeal judge was great so I havent a bad word to say about the judge. However at appeal stage you are already fighting a loosing battle.

 

Good luck

[Emmzzi]

if you are accusing judges of taking backhanders you're going to need more than a gut feel to back up that claim. I for one am not going to take part in a discussion based on factless sweeping generalizations. If you have actual evidence of wrong doing by lawyers the escalation route is the law society.

[billybobynumeroduo]

if you are accusing judges of taking backhanders you're going to need more than a gut feel to back up that claim. I for one am not going to take part in a discussion based on factless sweeping generalizations. If you have actual evidence of wrong doing by lawyers the escalation route is the law society.

 

And where is that going to get me?

 

Example: the R's solicitors doesnt make full disclosure and withholds vital evidence effectively perverting the course of justice.

 

This can be turned around to say, well, the Claimant should have requested full disclosure. So the C is always the one in the wrong.

(But hang on the Solicitors are trained in legal speak and the Claimant more often than not has not legal training.)

 

The claimant is always going to be derided and dismissed, simply because it is easy for the legal chaps to do this.

 

Well the Claimant expects the Respondent to come to court with Clean hands, which clearly isn't going to happen. Two groups are fighting over money, and nobody likes to part with money.

 

Lying and cheating is order of the day at the ET (Quote from someone on here, cant remember who exactly)

 

Its not level in any shape or form.

 

Thats why I am always glad to hear a winning case. These people have overwhelming evidence which refutes the Employers ability to get off the hook!

Edited November 10, 2013 by billybobynumeroduo

[billybobynumeroduo]

if you are accusing judges of taking backhanders you're going to need more than a gut feel to back up that claim. I for one am not going to take part in a discussion based on factless sweeping generalizations. If you have actual evidence of wrong doing by lawyers the escalation route is the law society.

 

Did I accuse anyone? I simply pointed out the mechanics of the system.