Halifax - CCA sent to me (application) is it enforcable?

[flit]

the bank wrote to me 2 months ago saying they could not find agreement and would take no further action.

 

today however i received what the bank calls my credit agreement and i just wanted to check if its legal.

 

It says CREDIT CARD APPLICATION on the top

 

Then under that it says credit agreement regulated by the consumer credit act and the address of the bank and registration number.

 

 

 

it has no information regarding the interest rate, or credit limit of the card

on the agreement

 

it says i am married which i never have been , it says i am retired which at the time I was only 30 years old and had been claiming JSA which was going into my halifax account at the time for 2 years and it says my monthly outgoings total £5 all in.

 

What i wanted to know is does a credit card agreement have to have the interest rate and credit limit details like a loan agreement has to on the original application?

 

They have also sent me seperate paperwork that lists the details of the interest charged and other details but this looks brand new and nowhere on it does it have my signature so i am sure they have taken this from a standard agreement.

 

Nowhere on any of these papers they have sent me does it state the credit limit of the card.

 

On the seperate paperwork it says they will decide the credit limit and tell me what it is however again nothing is signed on these papers only on the first original application.

 

Please can somone advise me on this as i dont know where to go with this one and i am becoming worried again.

[42man]

From what you say, then this is unenforceable.....what concerns me is what you said about never being married !! and yet it says you are on the application....do you suspect fraud possibly ?...

 

Send them this letter....(You will need to EDIT it though)

 

XX/XX/2007

 

Re: my request under the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

Dear Sirs,

 

Account Number: XXX

 

Re; your recent reply to my request under section 77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974

 

I note that you have replied to the above by sending a copy of an application form and your companies current Terms and conditions I must inform you that this is not sufficient to comply with the request and that your company is still in default under the act.

 

To clarify, just sending the Terms and Conditions is a breach of the Act and Regulations as, apart from the information that the Regulations provide that you may exclude, the copy must be a “true copy” of the agreement.

 

This breach of the agreement can be demonstrated as follows;

As you will know section 180(1) (b) authorises, “the omission from a copy of certain material from the original, or the inclusion of certain material in condensed form.” This refers to statutory instruments made under the heading Copies of document regulations and in this care in particular to SI 1983/1557.

 

Before leaving section 180 there are two other sections that should be remembered these are:

 

Section 2(2) (a) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not satisfied unless the copy supplied is in the prescribed form and conforms to the prescribed requirements;

 

And more importantly

 

Section 2(b) A duty imposed by any provision of this Act (except section 35) to supply a copy of any document is not infringed by the omission of any material, or its inclusion in condensed form, if that is authorised by regulations.

 

You will see that this quite clearly states that whilst certain items may be left out of the copy document the rest of the document must be in the form and contain all items as prescribed by the regulations.

 

Turning to the regulations regarding what may be omitted from these copies these are contained with SI 1983/1557.

 

The regulations state:

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancelable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

 

It is quite clear what can be omitted from the copy document, this again asserts that all other details of the agreement should presented in form and content as required by the regulations.

 

The requirements of the Agreement regulations 1983/1553 are very explicit in describing the form and content of an agreement and this as I have demonstrated also applies to the copy of any such agreement with the above mentioned proviso.

 

Nowhere within these regulations does it state that part of the agreement can be presented on a separate document headed terms and conditions.

It does state that all terms and conditions should be within the agreement document and is explicit of the form in which it is presented.

 

I hope this explains why your reply was unacceptable I await a True copy of my agreement and would remind you again that whilst the request has not been complied with the default continues

 

Yours faithfully

[harrythehawk]

It may be someone with the same name they have found ? are there any other references / account numbers you can check ? Also, post it up on here and we can have a look for you, my Halifax CCA request was answered with a similar sounding illegible application form .... was mine though grrrrr !!

[flit]

this application does have my other correct details on it like address and other bank details so i dont think its from any one elses account but i just cant understand why they put married, retired and have monthly outgoings at a total of £5 when it also states i have a mortgage of £21k to pay, so that bit does not make sense.

 

i am pretty new to this forum and dont know how to post it up on site

Edited July 3, 2008 by flit

[Brassed off]

Take a copy, blank out your personal details and then upload to:-

 

Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket

 

Use the IMG code (fourth code down), highlight, right click and then copy and paste onto your thread

[harrythehawk]

Try using an image host, I use Photobucket, real easy.

 

Also, any organisation that accepts somebody has outgoings of £5 per month and grants credit deserves all they get ...... I mean my outgoings as a toddler were more than that ....... and we are talking old money here too !!!

[flit]

IMG]http://i311.photobucket.com/albums/kk480/foreverlostintime/LastScan.jpg[/img]

 

hope ive done this right should be the agreement they sent me

[Brassed off]

....

Edited July 3, 2008 by Brassed off
Flit got it right lol

[flit]

picture

Edited December 16, 2008 by flit
new

[lickthewallfatboy]

from what I can see,you have an unenforceable "agreement"-no prescribed terms to be seen

[flit]

ok got it on there now can anyone help with this again please

 

i know the old credit card number has been written on the top of the agreement in biro but dont worry its been cut off for a few years.

 

thanks for all the help so far, guys if nothing else i now know how to use photobucket.

[flit]

from what I can see,you have an unenforceable "agreement"-no prescribed terms to be seen

 

 

 

Does it make a difference if the terms are on a seperate booklet that they have sent me?

 

(my signature does not appear anywhere in that)

[42man]

It has to refer to the terms on the 'application'....and they MUST be the original terms otherwise this is what the OFT say....

 

For your information, the general effects of sections 77-79 requires the creditor/owner

(in the case of a hire agreement) under an agreement for (fixed-sum credit, running

account credit and hire agreement) to provide the debtor/hirer with a copy of the executed

agreement and a statement of account on request.

 

If a creditor/owner fails to comply with a valid request within a period of 12 days

(not including the date of receipt of the request) he may not enforce the agreement at all.

This prevents enforcement with or without a court order. If a default lasts for a month

(for example a calendar month) it constitutes an offence. We understand your concerns in

this matter but please do remember however that once the creditor/owner complies with

the request albeit out of time, he may once again enforce the agreement.

 

A ‘true copy’ of an agreement principally consists of the terms and conditions of the agreement

and the statutory content of the agreement. The name, address and signature of the debtor do

not have to be provided. Additionally, the creditor must supply the total sum paid under the

agreement by the debtor; the total sum which has become payable under the agreement but

remains unpaid; and the total sum which is to become payable under the agreement by the debtor

(the latter two must include the various amounts comprised in that total sum and the date when

each is/was due). However, the copy must be a copy. It need not be exact on immaterial points,

but it cannot be a conjectured reconstruction. If the trader has no original copy, the trader will have

difficulty showing that he has complied with the regulation by supplying a ‘true copy’, since nobody

would know what was in the original. When the trader comes to enforce the debt in court, he needs

to have a signed copy of the agreement in order to enforce. As the law stands currently he cannot

otherwise.

 

In the absence of a copy of the original agreement someone's liability for a debt can only lead to

further query. However in circumstances like this we would view it is as unfair practice under

section 25(2) (d) of the Act and relevant to licence fitness if a trader failed to investigate and/or

provide details as appropriate when a debt is queried or disputed

 

This is taken from here... - http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/consumer_credit/oft786a.pdf

[flit]

hi again guys,

 

need some further assistance,

 

today i took my credit agreement to my local CAB and unfortunately now im wishing i hadn`t.

 

they told me that the agreement is definately enforceable, the terms are on a seperate booklet that i received with the agreement which they say is perfectly legally enforceable and the fact that there are blatent lies on the application form (retired whilst on JSA, outgoings of just £5 per month on a £21k mortgage) do not matter because ultimately i knew what i was signing)

 

they also advised that halifax can apply to have a charging order placed on my property and could apply to court to force sale.

 

After all this i am now feeling worse than ever with the realisation that according to them my property could now be at risk.

 

Does anyone have a definative answer on the legallity of this agreement and where should i go with this, do i now contact halifax with an offer of payment or dispute the agreement they sent me.

 

please advise i`m getting desperate here.

 

thanks again.

[flit]

any further advice guys?

 

thanks

[42man]

This is my opinion Flit...you queried some of the personal details e.g. married/not married...retired/on JSA...is there a possibility that fraud has taken place ? could somebody have falsified this i.e. identity fraud...if so then tell the Halifax....the CAB aren't normally likely to say if something is out of the law if they don't know or aren't sure as potentially I suppose they could be held liable.

 

The Halifax will say they agreement is enforceable like so many others on here that actually aren't...BUT your 'application form' would seem to be a pre contractual document, again you would have to find rock solid reasons why a judge WOULDN'T allow the debt to be enforced....however, I can see they do refer to the 'conditions' on the left hand side, so if you can post them up so we can take a look if possible....and the accompanying documents must contain the prescribed terms...

 

It might be well worth sending a PM to PT2537 with the link to this thread....I'm not an expert on enforceability, but he is exceptional on these application / agreements....

 

If you need any more help do PM me...