Debt collectors but not my debt?

[ErikaPNP]

Hi, bit of a long one I'm afraid.

 

I received a letter today dated 2 weeks ago from a debt collection agency. It was addressed to "The Occupier". They are collecting on behalf of a utility company and want money by a date which was two days ago. Failing this, they say they will either send a debt collector to collect the debt personally or credit solicitors to commence legal action in a county/sheriff court, which may result in a judgement/decree being made against me.

 

Okay. Problem. I have never been with the utility company they claim to represent and certainly do not have any debt, other than a bank loan which is paid monthly.

 

This is not the first time I've had this sort of problem. I have had several letters addressed to a man which I've written on the envelopes "not known at this address, return to sender" and placed them in the post box.

 

December last year I received a card through the door which contained threats of sending debt collectors, again this was addressed to "the occupier". I telephoned the number given, and advised the woman that I'd lived here for almost 4 years, and do not have a forwarding address for the previous occupant. The woman asked for my name which I gave to her and said I'd happily supply them with proof of identity. Following this, I had streams of letters in my own name, one asked for an address history for the past ten years which I refused to give them as it's not their business. Others demanded sums of money, the telephone constantly rang and I was pestered with questions such as do I know this man - when I said "no, I don't", I got "don't believe you", and was told that I would have to prove to them that I had no involvement with him, if I couldn't prove it they would continue to pursue me for the debt. (I changed my number because of it) and I had several debt collectors appear at my door, who would only disappear when I said I would call the police to remove them. Not heard anything since until today, although I still receive letters for this man.

 

Because of what happened before, I'm a little reluctant to give them any personal information to evidence who I am and that I live alone with my children and have no idea of the whereabouts of the person they are looking for.

 

What can I do? Surely harrassment of an innocent party and threats of these kind via letters addressed to "The Occupier" are against the law?

 

Please help, this is making me desperate. I'm so frightened that a debt collector will come to my home whilst I'm at work and force entry.

[jumpjet]

You a quite right of course, they cannot persue a debt without having first asserted their attempts have reached the right person. Howevr they know this. There are links for letters to send for harrassment from DCa's but in your case they may need to be amended to suit your case.http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/37006-harassment-telephone-response-letter.html

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/20758-creditors-dcas-letter-templates.html

 

Have you actually informed the police? also perhaps you could get a confirmation from your landlord that this man is no longer in occupancy.

 

Others will advise you further I'M sure!

[jumpjet]

Oh! If they phone again.........just inform them that the person they require no longer lives at this address! Do not give your name or enter into conversation.

[ErikaPNP]

I did telephone the police on one occasion after I'd had a debt collector appear. They told me that it was a civil matter and they couldn't do anything.

 

Thanks for the template links, but I can't see one which fits my situation at all, they all seem to be aimed at people who are debtors, but can't find one for me.

[Rooster-UK]

Hi Erika.

Definitely send the following letter as soon as possible......

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/37006-harassment-telephone-response-letter.html

 

Also, courtesy of pt2537......

 

Dear xxxx

 

Account Ref xxxx

 

Please be advised that I will only communicate with you in writing. I have noted your repeated attempts to contact me by telephone over the past few weeks/months and these have been duly logged by time and date.

 

Furthermore, should it be your intention to arrange a “doorstep call”, please be advised that under OFT rules, you can only visit me at my home if you make an appointment and I have no wish to make an appointment with you.

 

There is only an implied license under English Common Law for people to be able to visit me on my property without express permission; the postman and people asking for directions etc (Armstrong v. Sheppard and Short Ltd [1959] 2 Q.B. per Lord Evershed M.R.). Therefore take note that I revoke license under Common Law for you, or your representatives to visit me at my property and if you do so, then you will be liable to damages for a tort of trespass and action will be taken, including but not limited to, police attendance.

 

Yours faithfully/sincerely,

 

I will move this thread into the debt forum where you get more detailed information regarding this problem

 

Regards, Rooster.

[ErikaPNP]

I've been looking at the other threads, and found a clause which says the regulators state it's illegal to attempt to recover a debt from a third party or from someone not linked in a credit agreement.

 

Perhaps I should write to them, asking them to supply me with a copy of their "credit agreement" and sign the letter the same as they addressed it "The Occupier" - that way they don't get my name or anything and they obviously can't send a credit agreement to someone with no name as the credit agreement would have the original debtors name on it, which would be a breach of data protection, if the credit agreement has "the occupier" on it, it's not enforcable is it?..... or am I just being silly? (Even the giro pay in slip they have on the letter has "the occupier" and my address on it).

This agency is not the same one that I dealt with the last time, so I don't even know if it is the same person they are looking for as the other agencies.

 

I wonder if it's not even a debt collecting agency but a [problem]? I mean would a debt collection agency really address something to "the occupuier" and threaten to take a person with no name to court?

 

Sorry for all the rambling but I have little experience with this sort of thing.

[jumpjet]

Someone more knowledgeable than me will probably answer soon but I disagree that this is a civil matter. Report these people to trading standards.

Do they arrive at your door with prior arrangement. I.E. Letter first?

If so, inform the police that they are comming and phone them when they do!

There are steps they should have taken to establish the identity of the occupier of the house. You are being intimidated and report these people each time they get in touch to the police! It is criminal and as such they need to act. They could quite easily establish to the company that you are not the person they say you are. If your say that you are fearful for their your safety you may get further and if not speak to a senior officer!

Ultimately, the only way maybe to prove to the company with ID/references etc. may be the only way! But dont be afraid to make a fuss to get your point across.

[ErikaPNP]

Thank you Rooster. I'll use those if the original agency contact me, but the letter I received today is from a different agency and I don't know if the debt is owed by the same man as the other ones he appears to have.

 

I note the letter said about "English Law" - I live in Scotland where laws ae varied slightly but I'm not sure if the laws relating to debts etc would be different?

[ErikaPNP]

Thank you Scampjet

[jumpjet]

What is the name of the company collecting?

Have you searched for them in yellow pages or internet?

If they are not listed anywhere then I would suggest that you dont mention them in open forum, but PM Rooster as he has subscribed. Just in case they are not cosha and you fear identifing yourself.

I hope you dont mind Rooster, but this member seems really frightened.

[ErikaPNP]

I was so worried, I never thought of searching the net for them, just googled it and they are on the internet.

 

It's Advantis Credit LTD.

[jumpjet]

Oh good! At least there a a "bonefide" company!

I wasn't trying to be alarmist,but its better to be safe than sorry! and I was afraid it may have been the local loan shark or something!:o;)

 

Now then, if you search for Advantis from the top of the page there maybe some one else who's had dealings with them and can inform you better!

[jumpjet]

Hi Erika,

I have just had a quick look and theres loads of them!

 

Read, read, then go get em!

 

All the best!

[PGH7447]

You know it is unlawful to send out demands for money addressed to the occupier, you can report them to TS for that alone

[ScarletPimpernel]

Take a look at s.7 of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008, which have recently become operative; it sounds to me as if this company is using aggressive tactics to try to force you into making a transactional decision - i.e. to pay a debt which is not yours.

 

It may be helpful to mention it to Trading Standards, who can prosecute under this legislation.

[Guest forgottenone]

I did telephone the police on one occasion after I'd had a debt collector appear. They told me that it was a civil matter and they couldn't do anything.

I also strongly disagree with this. You felt harassed by this person as it has nothing to do with you ... so they are committing harassment and the police have a duty to act to protect you from this. Also, for the police to come to such a conclusion they would at least need to be first assured of the facts in the matter eg 'it's a civil matter'. Wonder if you could now complain to the chief constable? As it would seem whomever you spoke or contacted has decided to conclude it's not harassment without investigating it further.

 

You are not liable for the debt, so you deserve protection from these people who invade your property. In another light they are trying to extort money from you you are not liable to pay. Hence, the police should have acted. And it is written into the laws of harassment; which even the basic PC should be aware of. Police are always banging on about not trying to take things into your own hands, and we all know what doorstep collectors are like when they refuse to leave/go away, what a menace they then become, particularly if they arrive in packs of 2 eg intimidation ... it's what the police are there for.

[ErikaPNP]

Okay, I have had a good look around the site since coming home from work and found a few helpful hints in other threads and a link to OFT's guidelines. Thank you Scamp.

 

I have written a draft letter (it's rather long) to the company in question, but as I have not done this before, I'm a little unsure if it will be alright.

 

Is it OK for me to post the letter here for feedback from more experienced members before I send it?

[PGH7447]

post away:)

[ErikaPNP]

Okay, gimme a mo to copy, paste and edit the personal details.

[ErikaPNP]

Here

Edited June 30, 2008 by ErikaPNP

[ErikaPNP]

Here is my letter:

 

The Occupier

MY ADDRESS

 

REF(NUMBERS)

Client REF (MORE NUMBERS)

 

I write regarding a letter which was recently sent to me regarding an alleged debt which you are collecting on behalf of (THEIR CLIENT) as you state in your letter.

 

I do not acknowledge the above debt, as I have never been a customer of (THEIR CLIENT), and therefore am confident I have no debt with them. Also, in sending your letter, you addressed it to “The Occupier” which is a breach of the Office of Fair Trading Guidelines by committing an “unfair practice” as I quote the Office of Fair Trading below:

 

 

Paragraph 2.8 a

Sending demands for payment to an individual when it is uncertain that

they are the debtor in question, for example, threatening debt recovery

action to 'the occupier' or sending a payment demand to all people sharing

the same name/date of birth as a debtor in the hope that contact with the

correct debtor will be made.

 

 

Paragraph 2.8 b

Disclosing debt details to an individual when it is uncertain that they are

the debtor in question, for example, disclosing details to 'the occupier' of

an address

 

 

For some time now, mail has been continually delivered from various companies, addressed to a person whom does not live here. I have time after time written on the envelopes that this person does not live at this address and placed them in the post box, all to no avail; the letters continue to filter through my letterbox in vast quantities. I don’t know where this person resides but I can tell you that it is not at the above address. I know this because I live at the above address, and am perfectly aware of who lives in my home and who doesn’t. Somehow companies have also managed to get hold of my x directory landline number, which I have had to change as I was being consistently harassed for information on this person’s whereabouts. Unless I have suddenly become psychic and possess a crystal ball, I cannot help you.

 

More recently, I have had people attending my home uninvited and unannounced in search of this person. Their demeanour has been less than friendly and this has frightened my young children, to the point that my oldest child is now too scared to sleep in their own bed. How dare anyone frighten my children?!

 

 

Furthermore, I refuse to provide you with my name or indeed any of my personal details. My previous attempts of being helpful in providing this information in the belief that it will put an end to this farce have only led me to receive letters in my own name, some of a threatening nature, demanding further information such as proving my identity. My personal details are none of your business. I have never had any dealings with your company or with your client and am therefore under no obligation to prove my identity.

I’m led to believe there are methods of tracing people. If you are determined to find the actual debtor, I suggest you put this into practice, and leave myself and my family to live our lives in our home, in peace.

 

I respectfully request that you cease sending any form of communication to this address. It is a waste of your budget and my time as well as the cost I will incur in mailing this letter, as I say it again, this person does not live here. I must also add that on telephoning some companies to raise the issue I have been instructed by telephonists to open the recipient’s mail in order to provide them with a reference number. I refused. As I am sure you are aware, instructing a third party to perform such an action and any action by the third party as a result of that instruction is a criminal offence under the Data Protection Act.

 

If you continue to send mail to this address or harass me or any member of my family as innocent parties in any manner, including but not limited to sending a representative to intrude on my time in my home, I will have no hesitation in reporting your activity to The Office of Fair Trading and in addition, I will inform the police of the harassment which could result in criminal charges being brought against your company, as I intend to keep a copy of the letter recently received from you and any others you choose to send, as evidence. I will also consider instructing my solicitor to raise a civil action against your company if any further communication is received from your company.

 

I trust this will be an end to the matter.

 

Yours Sincerely,

The Occupier.

 

 

What do you think, will it do? Thanks if you managed to read that far, it is very long!

[ErikaPNP]

I was also thinking of adding a bit in asking them to remove my address from their system with immediate effect as the information they hold on my address may affect my ability to obtain credit in the future.

[djweeble]

Yes, add that in too.

 

As for "I respectfully request" NO WAY !, make it I DEMAND.

 

Finish it off with something like, any further letters from you will be treated with the contempt they deserve, and if you try to take any form of action against me (I dare you), I will take great pleasure in sh1tting all over you from a great height in front of a judge.

 

:o

 

Well, maybe miss the last part of the paragraph out if you like, but I'd certainly use it

[jumpjet]

well...........If I was a DCA I would'nt come to your house without a personal invite!

I think you might add toe the statment at post 22. Taht they confirm this in writing and if upon checking your credit file they have made any illegal entries you will persue them at couirt for removal. Also, tell them that you have already disscussed the matter with local police!

 

Nice one Erika!

[ErikaPNP]

Thank you, Scampjet and djweeble.

 

I've edited the letter as you both suggested below. The parts I've added in are in red.

 

I’m led to believe there are methods of tracing people. If you are determined to find the actual debtor, I suggest you put this into practice, and leave myself and my family to live our lives in our home, in peace. Incorrect information you along with other companies may hold on my address will affect my ability to obtain credit, which is not acceptable as I am not party to this debt. I demand that you remove my address from your system with immediate effect.

I also demand that you cease sending any form of communication to this address, other than a letter to confirm that my requests regarding removal of my address from your system have been fulfilled. I have requested a copy of my credit file, if upon receipt and examination, it is noted that any illegal entries have been made on my credit file by your company, I will seek to have them removed via the court system. I should make you aware in accordance with civil law, your company may be liable for costs that such a case brought to court will incur.

Attempts to pursue this matter via my address is a waste of your budget and my time as well as the cost I will incur in mailing this letter, as I say it again, this person does not live here. I must also add that on telephoning some companies to raise the issue I have been instructed by telephonists to open the recipient’s mail in order to provide them with a reference number. I refused. As I am sure you are aware, instructing a third party to perform such an action and any action by the third party as a result of that instruction is a criminal offence under the Data Protection Act.

If you continue to send mail to this address or harass me or any member of my family as innocent parties in any manner, including but not limited to sending a representative to intrude on my time in my home, I will have no hesitation in reporting your activity to The Office of Fair Trading and in addition, I will inform the police of the harassment which could result in criminal charges being brought against your company, as I intend to keep a copy of the letter recently received from you and any others you choose to send, as evidence. I will also consider instructing my solicitor to raise a civil action against your company if any further communication is received from your company, other than the confirmation letter I have requested.

 

I trust this will be an end to the matter.