It is official - Excel Parking Fines Deemed unenforceable

[Barnsley Boy]

What we all knew to be true has now been confirmed by a county court judge.

 

Excel were daft enough to take a mansfield resident to court for non payment of a "fine". The judge threw Excel's case out, deeming the "fine" an unenforceable penalty.

 

Judge says Excel parking fines illegal - Mansfield Chad

 

TELL EVERYONE YOU KNOW ABOUT THIS!!

[green_and_mean]

Parking companies can still take you to Court for 'damages' resulting from your trespass, the crucial point in this case was the lack of signage regarding the time limit.

[RichardM]

I disagree that the crucial point was signage. The signage formed part of the defence but, if the report is to believed

 

"But the far more important issue was that the judge found there was no justification for the £100 fine. He said it was a penalty charge and therefore unenforceable by the court.

 

That is nothing to do with the signage issue.

[Michael Browne]

There was an item about this case on You & Yours today:

 

BBC - Radio 4 You and Yours -Excel Court Case

[green_and_mean]

I disagree that the crucial point was signage. The signage formed part of the defence but, if the report is to believed

 

"But the far more important issue was that the judge found there was no justification for the £100 fine. He said it was a penalty charge and therefore unenforceable by the court.

 

That is nothing to do with the signage issue.

 

 

Far more important to who? The person who is being quoted is the solicitor who is touting for business on the back of this case, hardly impartial!

"The implication is that people who refused to pay are probably not liable to pay their fine –– and those who have paid already could be able to reclaim their money. Anyone in these circumstances is welcome to contact us." I bet they are, lol. (note. the underlining is mine.)

[Barnsley Boy]

G&M,

 

I listened to the Your & Yours radio item [it is on Michael Brown's posting] as well as reading the Mansfield Chad online posting.

 

I take your point about the lawyer touting for business but the radio 4 reporting had no such axe to grind and said much the same thing. The judge actually said that notwithstanding the inadequate signing, the proposed Excel fine of £100 constituted a penalty unenforceable under English Law.

[green_and_mean]

Every civil claim is decided on its merits its impossible to state that a motorist will never be liable to pay a civil court claim it would make operating car parks as a business impossible and they would all just close.

[RichardM]

Agreed it cannot be stated that a motorist will never be liable to pay a civil claim.

 

However, the PPC's would have a far better chance of winning a case if their claim for damages was not so disproportionate to their actual loses.

 

While they continue to attempt to claim three figure sums as their loses the defence to their claim will always be that it is a penalty and hopefully the courts will continue to throw out their claims.

 

I suspect that a judge would be more agreeable if the claim was for £20, which would still cover the PPC's costs of sending those bog standard letters.

[Movingon]

In my view their "claim" is limited to (a) the parking fee you would have paid and (b) if you stayed late, the parking fee that the NEXT customer would have paid, plus the costs associated with bringing an action (i.e. as the previous poster said, letters and so on).

 

This ruling (which despite the article's wording will NOT set a precedent as County Court Judges do not have that authority) could sound the beginning of the death knell for extortionate parking charges full stop - I foresee a scenario where we have a groundswell movement very similar to the bank charges one, with people claiming back extortionate parking penalties over the last six years.

 

Note however that you will only be able to escape paying (as someone above says) IF IT IS EXTORTIONATE - a "reasonable" charge equating to the PPC's losses or somewhere close would be upheld as long as the signage is up to scratch.

[green_and_mean]

In my view their "claim" is limited to (a) the parking fee you would have paid and (b) if you stayed late, the parking fee that the NEXT customer would have paid, plus the costs associated with bringing an action (i.e. as the previous poster said, letters and so on).

 

If you saw how much my Solicitor charges for just sending a letter, £60-£80 for parking and associated enforcement costs is a bargain!

[Movingon]

If you saw how much my Solicitor charges for just sending a letter, £60-£80 for parking and associated enforcement costs is a bargain!

 

Which is why PPC's don't routinely use solicitors for sending these letters; they get initial advice from a solicitor and then send out standard "form" letters from that moment forwards. Their whole "raison d'etre" is to make massive profit; therefore a solicitor would be an absolute last resort.

[green_and_mean]

Which is why PPC's don't routinely use solicitors for sending these letters; they get initial advice from a solicitor and then send out standard "form" letters from that moment forwards. Their whole "raison d'etre" is to make massive profit; therefore a solicitor would be an absolute last resort.

 

Typical Civil case costs

 

Partnersb £175.00 per hour

Solicitors and FILEX (4 years qualified) £165.00 per hour

Solicitors, FILEX and Senior Paralegals (under 4 years qualified) £155.00 per hour

Trainee Solicitors £105.00 per hour

Junior Paralegals and secretaries engaged on legal work £90.00 per hour

Travel and waiting 50% of above rates Mileage 40 pence per mile

Routine letters out and telephone calls up to 6 minutes £16.00 per item

Routine telephone call with secretary to progress the matter £9.00 per item

Administrative call with secretary (e.g. to fix an appointment) no charge

Routine letters in £8.00 per item

Routine emails out (one short paragraph) £10.00 per item

Faxes out - additional charge £5.00 per item

Copying Court and other bundles of documents £10 pence per sheet

 

 

A parking company could legally pass these type of costs on to the driver even if the solicitor was working 'in house'. Even a trainee solicitor can charge £100+ per hour. Two hours to attend Court and thats £200 solicitors costs on top of the parking charge. Add into that administration costs, costs of running cctv or attendants and the 'its a fine not claim for losses' argument doesn't look as strong.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

Typical Civil case costs

 

Partnersb £175.00 per hour

Solicitors and FILEX (4 years qualified) £165.00 per hour

Solicitors, FILEX and Senior Paralegals (under 4 years qualified) £155.00 per hour

Trainee Solicitors £105.00 per hour

Junior Paralegals and secretaries engaged on legal work £90.00 per hour

Travel and waiting 50% of above rates Mileage 40 pence per mile

Routine letters out and telephone calls up to 6 minutes £16.00 per item

Routine telephone call with secretary to progress the matter £9.00 per item

Administrative call with secretary (e.g. to fix an appointment) no charge

Routine letters in £8.00 per item

Routine emails out (one short paragraph) £10.00 per item

Faxes out - additional charge £5.00 per item

Copying Court and other bundles of documents £10 pence per sheet

 

 

A parking company could legally pass these type of costs on to the driver even if the solicitor was working 'in house'. Even a trainee solicitor can charge £100+ per hour. Two hours to attend Court and thats £200 solicitors costs on top of the parking charge. Add into that administration costs, costs of running cctv or attendants and the 'its a fine not claim for losses' argument doesn't look as strong.

 

Don't think the small claims track in the county court will award these costs!

[JonCris]

If you saw how much my Solicitor charges for just sending a letter, £60-£80 for parking and associated enforcement costs is a bargain!

 

 

Your solicitor charges you no more than £16.50 per letter & to claim otherwise is nor only slanderous but also misleading to others & leads me to think you have 'lost' a few claims in the past.

 

Now if you mean the advice given prior to sending the letter then yes it will cost more & that will depend on where your solicitor is based & their experience

[JonCris]

Correct Bernie It's very unlikely that the court would allow such costs.

[JonCris]

Typical Civil case costs

 

Partnersb £175.00 per hour

Solicitors and FILEX (4 years qualified) £165.00 per hour

Solicitors, FILEX and Senior Paralegals (under 4 years qualified) £155.00 per hour

Trainee Solicitors £105.00 per hour

Junior Paralegals and secretaries engaged on legal work £90.00 per hour

Travel and waiting 50% of above rates Mileage 40 pence per mile

Routine letters out and telephone calls up to 6 minutes £16.00 per item

Routine telephone call with secretary to progress the matter £9.00 per item

Administrative call with secretary (e.g. to fix an appointment) no charge

Routine letters in £8.00 per item

Routine emails out (one short paragraph) £10.00 per item

Faxes out - additional charge £5.00 per item

Copying Court and other bundles of documents £10 pence per sheet

 

 

A parking company could legally pass these type of costs on to the driver even if the solicitor was working 'in house'. Even a trainee solicitor can charge £100+ per hour. Two hours to attend Court and thats £200 solicitors costs on top of the parking charge. Add into that administration costs, costs of running cctv or attendants and the 'its a fine not claim for losses' argument doesn't look as strong.

 

I think it should be made clear that these 'costs' are for the whole of the practice buildings, rates, taxes , together with expert advice & other costs. They are NOT payable to individual staff members

[Movingon]

Which is why PPC's don't routinely use solicitors for sending these letters; they get initial advice from a solicitor and then send out standard "form" letters from that moment forwards. Their whole "raison d'etre" is to make massive profit; therefore a solicitor would be an absolute last resort.

 

I refer the honourable green and mean Gentleman to the answer I gave some moments ago. PPC's don't use solicitors routinely because they cost money and the whole plan is to make profit. They send out standard form letters which a solicitor advised them on when they set up the company. They raise their own claim in the Courts. They represent themselves in the Small Claims Court. They will only get a solicitor if they absolutely have to.

[green_and_mean]

Your solicitor charges you no more than £16.50 per letter & to claim otherwise is nor only slanderous but also misleading to others & leads me to think you have 'lost' a few claims in the past.

 

Now if you mean the advice given prior to sending the letter then yes it will cost more & that will depend on where your solicitor is based & their experience

 

 

I didn't say £60 was for one letter, two letters and a trip to Court even for the cheapest solicitor would easily cost £60 though.

[JonCris]

No you suggested it cost more! when you claimed the poster should be thankfull for only being charged as 'little' as £60

[green_and_mean]

If you saw how much my Solicitor charges for just sending a letter, £60-£80 for parking and associated enforcement costs is a bargain!

 

No you suggested it cost more! when you claimed the poster should be thankfull for only being charged as 'little' as £60

 

 

Where did I suggest how much it costs? No figure was even mentioned!

[JonCris]

Of course it was you statedOriginally Posted by green_and_mean

If you saw how much my Solicitor charges for just sending a letter, £60-£80 for parking and associated enforcement costs is a bargain!

You stated £60 £80 for parking associated costs were a bargian compared with how much your solicitor charges for sending a letter

 

That's implying one cost (Your Solicitor) is greater than another (parking charges)

[penelope pitstop 23]

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[RichardM]

Don't worry Penelope.

 

It is very unlikely that you would get taken to court. The vast majority of the threats are just bluster, intended to frighten you, which is pretty well what one or two of the posters on here are doing as well.

 

IF a PPC took you to court, they would firstly have to win their case, which is becoming ever more unlikely.

 

Even if they won, they would only be able to claim REASONABLE costs, which I believe are about £9 an hour for preparation of court documents. Forget all these figures being bandied about for solicitors fees etc by a certain person. County Courts (small claims) do not normally award costs for either side so the whole argument is totally pointless.

[green_and_mean]

Of course it was you statedOriginally Posted by green_and_mean

If you saw how much my Solicitor charges for just sending a letter, £60-£80 for parking and associated enforcement costs is a bargain!

You stated £60 £80 for parking associated costs were a bargian compared with how much your solicitor charges for sending a letter

 

That's implying one cost (Your Solicitor) is greater than another (parking charges)

 

 

You can twist it as much as you like if it makes you happy but it was a light hearted comment get over it! But just to clarify if my solicitor charges me £16 for just ONE letter, the costs of being taken to Court one would assume would be much greater and easily be more than the 'parking charge'. If I had to attend Court I would claim much more than £60 costs I'd be a fool not to, even loss of earnings for a couple of hours would be £60.

[penelope pitstop 23]

removed