Jump to content


  • Tweets

  • Posts

    • He was one of four former top executives from Sam Bankman-Fried's firms to plead guilty to charges.View the full article
    • The private submersible industry was shaken after the implosion of the OceanGate Titan sub last year.View the full article
    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
  • Recommended Topics

  • Our picks

    • If you are buying a used car – you need to read this survival guide.
      • 1 reply
    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

      Car was dirty and test drive was two circuits of roundabout on entry to the showroom.  Was p/x my car and rushed by sales exec and a manager into buying the mini and a 3yr warranty that night, sale all wrapped up by 10pm.  They strongly advised me taking warranty out on car that age (2017) and confirmed it was honoured at over 500 UK registered garages.

      The next day, 18/1/24 noticed amber engine warning light on dashboard , immediately phoned BMW aftercare team to ask for it to be investigated asap at nearest garage to me. After 15 mins on hold was told only their 5 service centres across the UK can deal with car issues with earliest date for inspection in March ! Said I’m not happy with that given what sales team advised or driving car. Told an amber warning light only advisory so to drive with caution and call back when light goes red.

      I’m not happy to do this, drive the car or with the after care experience (a sign of further stresses to come) so want a refund and to return the car asap.

      Please can you advise what I need to do today to get this done. 
       

      Many thanks 
      • 81 replies
    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
      • 161 replies
    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
        • Like
  • Recommended Topics

PayPal / Private Sales / Consumer Rights


efunc
style="text-align: center;">  

Thread Locked

because no one has posted on it for the last 5938 days.

If you need to add something to this thread then

 

Please click the "Report " link

 

at the bottom of one of the posts.

 

If you want to post a new story then

Please

Start your own new thread

That way you will attract more attention to your story and get more visitors and more help 

 

Thanks

Recommended Posts

Hello all, new to the forum and straight in with a conundrum. To cut a long story short I bought an item with PayPal for £60 off a private seller on a forum on December the 14th and it hasn't arrived 2 months later. The seller hasn't responded and after filing a complaint paypal decided in my favour.

 

All good so far, HOWEVER, they tell me that they're unable to recover any funds from the seller's account. As an after thought they advise me that they will try to recover the funds if they become available in the seller's account in the future, but the matter is now closed! This obviously isn't very proactive of Paypal. If a VISA payment of mine was defrauded in this way VISA would pay out themselves and then take action on the seller later. ie, pursuing them for the money via courts, bailiffs, legal action, etc. Paypal state in the PayPal User Agreement that recovery of funds associated with a Buyer Complaint cannot be guaranteed but is on a 'best effort' basis. ie they will do nothing!

 

The seller in question informs me that the item has been lost in the post, but that he did not personally loose it and will not issue a refund and as far as he is concerned the matter is closed (he didn't keep any receipts and cannot claim the standard £34 compensation from the royal mail, nor did he send it recorded delivery!).

 

My first question is, does the Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumer Regulations 2002 apply to private sellers? According to this "the goods remain at the seller’s risk until they are delivered to the consumer. Thus the supplier is liable should the goods not arrive."

 

Furthermore "If no date is specified, delivery of goods must be within 30 days of the order. If they don't arrive you are entitled to cancel the order and receive a full refund." If this applies to him I can pursue him through legal action.

 

My second question relates to PayPal's position. Apparently "The Distance Selling Regulations provide additional protection e.g. the card company must refund you if your credit, debit, or store card is used fraudulently and, in many cases in the EU, the law allows you time to change your mind, within seven working days of the delivery, and get a refund.” Does this mean that PayPal are in fact liable to recover my funds and are in violation of the EU The Distance Selling Regulations??

 

Thanks all for reading this far. All advice is welcome.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The seller in question informs me that the item has been lost in the post, but that he did not personally loose it and will not issue a refund and as far as he is concerned the matter is closed (he didn't keep any receipts and cannot claim the standard £34 compensation from the royal mail, nor did he send it recorded delivery!).

 

Really that's his problem. Although your statutory rights are reduced buying from a private seller they are entering into a contract. Part of that contract is that they supply the goods and the goods are as described. Really I think your best course of action would be to send a Letter Before Action informing the seller that if they don't give a full refund within 14 days you will file at court against them. Any fees and costs incurred in doing this will be added to the amount currently owing.

HAVE YOU BEEN TREATED UNFAIRLY BY CREDITORS OR DCA's?

 

BEWARE OF CLAIMS MANAGEMENT COMPANIES OFFERING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS.

 

 

Please note opinions given by rory32 are offered informally as a lay-person in good faith based on personal experience. For legal advice, you must always consult a registered and insured lawyer.

Link to post
Share on other sites

thanks for your reply. What aspects of my statutory rights specifically are reduced in a private sale? Are the bullet point's I reproduced in my OP applicable?

 

I'm initially trying to avoid direct legal action, not least because I don't know the sellers full name and address, as is common when dealing through Paypal. I have asked for them from Paypal but they won't supply them without a court order. And I don't know how to get that.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, his liability is the same. As for his name and address, check his feedback, see if he has been a buyer at some point and try and contact the seller, explaining the situation, and see if they would be willing to help you by givng you the guy's details?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Great, thanks for that. Actually this wasn't an ebay sale. He is/was a member of a private forum, much the same as this one. But I'm getting closer to finding his details.

 

I wonder if you'd be able to comment on my second point? Would you say that PayPal are obliged to provide a refund under the provisions of the Distance Selling Regulations? Their T&Cs claim otherwise.

 

(In fact, just today I discovered that my HSBC debit card had been stolen and three purchases made. HSBC immediately refunded the payments when I informed them, contrary to my expectations. So maybe there's room to negotiate?)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for all the help with this so far. The good news is that I've finally tracked down the sellers real name and address through a couple of days of internet searches. Yay!

 

My next question is, in the worst case scenario, could I end up loosing even more money by taking him to court? i.e., when the court finds him liable (which they will) and he chooses to ignore their finding, am I just left with the moral high ground and an empty bank balance??

 

thanks again!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, there is the risk that he will not pay up, in which case it would cost you extra to get a warrant of execution (bailiffs) to get your money and from bitter experience, the bailiffs don't try very hard on small private to private debt. On the other hand, if he doesn't pay up, he will end up with a CCJ for 6 years and unless he is a serial debt dodger with no credit scoring to speak off, he won't want that over his head.

 

My advice would be to fill in the N1 ready for filing, and send him a copy advising him that unless he pays up within 14 days, the next communication from you will be the same, but through the courts. :mad:

Link to post
Share on other sites

What an excellent strategy! Thanks for the advice, I'm pretty sure that will do the trick. I'll report back with a happy outcome in the near future hopefully.

 

First, to read up on what an N1 is...

Link to post
Share on other sites

With paypal you should still have had £150 protection with an Item not received dispute as long as you claimed within 45 days of your original payment.

 

So did you try and make a cliam after 45 days?

 

Also how did you fund the paypal payment?

 

Idax

Please contact a member of the site team if you are offered help off the forum for a a paid or no win no fee service.

 

Please consider making a small donation to help keep this site running

Click here to donate through PayPal (opens in a new window)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Funded from my existing Paypal funds, claim filed after 30 days. However, even though Paypal decided in my favour they told me that the seller doesn't have any funds in his account and they will not pursue him for it. Or at least it's only on a 'Best Effort' basis. Alas the £150/£500 guarantee is only valid for items bought on eBay, not other PayPal transactions! I hadn't realised there was a distinction so always presumed I was safe by paying with PayPal. Never again.

Link to post
Share on other sites

PayPal always look after themselves - at least from my experience. I rate them just one notch above NCO Europe. Oh hang on, who do PayPal use to intimidate buyers who've had their balance taken -ve by [problematic]?...

 

Trying to even communicate with them is like banging your head against a brick wall; I would go the claims route personally.

 

Slightly off topic, I am surprised that PayPays new status as a bank has not attracted a significant amount of litigation...

Link to post
Share on other sites

ok just checked for standard purchases and was wrong no guaranteed cover.

 

Are you sure the seller is not a business selller?

Can you provide id?

 

 

Idax

Please contact a member of the site team if you are offered help off the forum for a a paid or no win no fee service.

 

Please consider making a small donation to help keep this site running

Click here to donate through PayPal (opens in a new window)

Link to post
Share on other sites

ok just checked for standard purchases and was wrong no guaranteed cover.

 

Are you sure the seller is not a business selller?

Can you provide id?

 

 

Idax

 

He is definitely a private seller, if that makes a difference. (Does it?) He's a member of another forum I'm on. What ID are you refering to? thanks.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Whether he's a private or business seller will determine what rights you have. With private sellers, they are generally limited to damages in fewer circumstances.

 

whether he is a business or private seller is a matter of fact. Just calling yourself a private seller does not make you one. Is he selling other items online? Does he have more of the same item? Basically, it comes down to the nature and frequency of his transactions as well as elements of profit.

Link to post
Share on other sites

No, he is definitely a private seller. I know that as a fact. He's been on the same forum I've been on for 5 years.

 

In which case I'm now confused as to whether I have any rights at all if the item I paid for didn't arrive! He has £60 of my money. I know he sent it, but it was lost in the post. He said he kept the postage reciept to begin with but later he couldn't find it. I have a record of all our correspondence and Paypal transaction. He's now broken all communication with me.

 

So will the case be thrown out of court??

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 Caggers

    • No registered users viewing this page.

  • Have we helped you ...?


×
×
  • Create New...