Did anyone see BBC24 re bailiffs today?

[JonCris]

I to find it difficult to understand how any human being can do a job that depends on another human being frightened, threatened, humiliated & all to often terrorized.

 

I mean what sort of person uses force to enter another persons home

 

Also I suspect the reason that many bailiffs break the law is because they like the police don't understand it. They only understand it from their prospective & not the debtor

[The Watcher]

I to find it difficult to understand how any human being can do a job that depends on another human being frightened, threatened, humiliated & all to often terrorized.

 

I mean what sort of person uses force to enter another persons home

 

Alot of bailiff firms are not Christian ... they have a different morality altogether.

[chris600uk]

I believe it's simpler and darker than that.

 

Stanley Milgrams experiment with human behaviour at Yale University in the 1960's where innocent people were apparently electrocuted by persons considered to be of good character, helped to explain how people will do the most dreadful things, provided they perceive that it is POLICY, the LAW, or the CORRECT THING TO DO in the view of their peers.

 

People give the responsibility for making this decision to others who they perceive to be in authority - it saves them from dealing with the moral dilemma itself.

 

It works at every level, and this very unattractive quirk of human behaviour can be seen at work within abusive families, groups of bullies at school, the workplace, the street, among mobs who are often guided by "leaders" or significant individuals whose viewpoint is respected.

 

Paradoxically, we also see it at work in the armed forces where cohesion is essential, in the greater community where the identity of state keeps our country whole. The Americans don't have children swear allegiance every morning as some sort of joke - they really mean it and by the time they're teenagers so do the kids, this believe lasts for life.

That's why 52 completely separate countries consider themselves part of a united group we call the U S of A. Or Britain to a very, which is made up of completely different countries.

 

The saying "The chief executive of any organisation, large or small, is the custodian of it's values" has never been truer. That's why your first complaint should be directed at the MP, the Chief Constable, the Council leader, the Prime Minister, etc.

 

It's how the Nazi's achieved what was thought impossible, AFAIUI Hitler was VOTED in by almost 100% of the population. They believed him.

 

So don't blame the individual bailiff for believing that what he/she does is morally right - they are told that so often that they believe it, and because the job can provide a very good living for a person who has no previous qualifications, and can simply pass the comparatively easy checks, they WANT to believe it.

 

Any person who wants to defend the indefensible can easily do so, they just re frame their view of reality until it suits their situation, editing out the bits they don't like - read any religious book you like and you'll see the same stuff at work.

 

Any bailiff who reads this post is therefore unlikely to agree. I accept that. Any comments they have to make be they good bad or hostile are OK, for all the sound reasons I've listed above.

[chris600uk]

Any person who wants to defend the indefensible can easily do so, they just re frame their view of reality until it suits their situation, editing out the bits they don't like - read any religious book you like and you'll see the same stuff at work.

 

Just in case anyone is offended by that, please remember, everyone is entitled to a viewpoint on everything - and yes I do believe in god, just not in everything some bloke has written down, cos it suited the message of their organisation at that time.

 

If you try to do as you would be done by, you can't go far wrong.

[MARTIN3030]

Watcher- can you please tell me how being a Christian or not has anything to do with the subject in question ?

It could be seen as offensive to others since it could imply that those who are not practising Christians are immoral.

I trust you will stress that this was not your meaning here.

[jansus]

 

 

sigh

[The Watcher]

Watcher- can you please tell me how being a Christian or not has anything to do with the subject in question ?

It could be seen as offensive to others since it could imply that those who are not practising Christians are immoral.

I trust you will stress that this was not your meaning here.

 

Martin

 

I was just pointing out that Christian beliefs differ from others (not saying one is right or the other is wrong).

 

Christians tend to follow a certain doctrine (treat others as you would like to be treated yourself etc) - and their Christian beliefs would certainly influence whether they could carry out any job which inflicted suffering on others.

[The Watcher]

Excellent post, Chris.

 

I take it that this "abandonment" of responsibility is an indication of lack of intelligence too (ie - not thinking for yourself, and letting others tell you how to live your life?)

[chris600uk]

Excellent post, Chris.

 

I take it that this "abandonment" of responsibility is an indication of lack of intelligence too (ie - not thinking for yourself, and letting others tell you how to live your life?)

 

Well it's certainly an abandonment of responsibility, unfortunately intelligent folk can be every bit as weak minded as anyone else.

[MARTIN3030]

The thread created to see what the Chief Police officers have to say is here.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bailiffs/128158-lets-ask-chief-constables.html

[Bookworm]

Christians tend to follow a certain doctrine (treat others as you would like to be treated yourself etc) - and their Christian beliefs would certainly influence whether they could carry out any job which inflicted suffering on others.

Well, that's funny, because when things went really bad for us when my husband lost his job, the people behind the desk who watched me cry my heart out that I didn't even have enough money to feed the kids or heat the flat without blinking or relenting all looked as if they were (forgive the generalisation) solid WASP.

On quite a few of the programmes I have seen, most of the ones I saw knocking doors down would be at first sight classified as WASP too.

 

I think you're on very slippery ground here if you're trying to say that the Christian doctrine is steeped in a peaceful and non-confrontational approach. "treat others as you would like to be treated yourself " is also what is implied in "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth", and as for the smiting, well... ;-)

 

Chris, great post, but maybe over-idealistic, IMO. I may be somewhat more cynical, but I simply believe that some people will do anything for money, and simply don't have a bit of moral fibre in them. The fact they think they hold the moral high ground may help disguise their lack of morality to themselves, but it wouldn't keep them in the job for long by itself if that was the only prop. ;-)

[The Watcher]

WASP ???

 

I take on board what you say (and was largely refering to the people who run bailiff firms rather than individual employees), but stand my ground.

 

The fact that many people (who would claim to be Christian) do not follow entirely a Christian doctrine does not mean that the doctrine itself is wrong !

 

Let me give another (different) example. Many people believe that it is wrong to inflict cruelty on animals. If an animal has to be slaughtered it should be done in the most humane way possible. Other believe that animals should have their throats cut and be left to bleed to death - clearly a (barbaric?) slow and cruel death.

 

Should we abandon OUR principles in order not to upset those who believe otherwise?

 

Or should we stand our ground and point out that we believe others are doing wrong?

 

*By their deeds, shall ye know them*

[barracad]

Alot of bailiff firms are not Christian ... they have a different morality altogether.

 

Fascinating viewpoint on morality. I'm quite interested in this 'Christian morality' concept, perhaps you could answer a few questions for me:

 

1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a

pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbours. They

claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

 

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

 

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her

period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19-24. The problem is, how

do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

 

4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Welsh, but not Irish. Can you clarify? Why can't I own the Irish?

 

5. I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

 

6. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

 

7. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

 

8. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

 

9. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev.20:14)

[Lula]

This is all the perfect example of why i hate religion, it doesn't bring people together it divides them, any extremism is a bad bad thing.

[The Watcher]

Barracad

 

I (being a mere mortal) am not qualified to answer such detailed questions ... I suggest you consult your religious advisor !

 

I'm merely pointing out that to be a Christian MEANS following the teachings / examples of Christ (and many of us fail - but am sure we are awarded points as we have tried). Do you think Christ would have been a bailiff (even part-time) ? I doubt it.

 

Remind me again (as you are obviously much better at Biblical quotes than I am) - who was it that Christ threw out of the Temple? Wasn't it the money-lenders (and presumably that would also include ancillary professions such as debt collectors / bailiffs)?

[chris600uk]

Chris, great post, but maybe over-idealistic, IMO. I may be somewhat more cynical, but I simply believe that some people will do anything for money, and simply don't have a bit of moral fibre in them. The fact they think they hold the moral high ground may help disguise their lack of morality to themselves, but it wouldn't keep them in the job for long by itself if that was the only prop. ;-)

 

You are right, but that was a path I didn't want to go down because in the distant past I have done exactly that to pay the bills, rent, etc.

Maslo's pyramid works for everyone even though we might not care to admit it.

 

Yes, part of my post have idealistic comments, you're right about that, but don't be mistaken, the quirk of human behaviour I outlined is responsible for many of the bunfights on this an many other forums, simply because humans delude themselves every day about reality just to make what they do or say feel more palatable, and if they do it often enough, they will stop treating it as a plausible invention, and begin treating it as fact.

[The Watcher]

This is all the perfect example of why i hate religion, it doesn't bring people together it divides them, any extremism is a bad bad thing.

 

Hi Lula

 

Not if you follow the core teachings - after all, there were ONLY 10 commandments ! It's when you try and interpret every single statement as the word of God that you get confused.

 

Forgive me if I'm starting to sound like a religious "nut" - I'm not, far from it - just pointing out that core Christian beliefs are (imho) a good thing - and the world would be a better place if we followed them.

[Bookworm]

WASP = White Anglo-Saxon Protestant. The acronym is usually meant to describe the American part of the population that falls under that umbrella, but no reason why it can't be applied here.

[The Watcher]

WASP = White Anglo-Saxon Protestant. The acronym is usually meant to describe the American part of the population that falls under that umbrella, but no reason why it can't be applied here.

 

Thank you. Well, I'm white but descended from the Vikings, and certainly NOT Protestant !

[chris600uk]

And part of that self-delusion is the professed inability to appreciate or accept an alternative point if view.

 

Ask any football fan or person who says they hold strong religious views.

 

It's all cobblers really. Because all the religious books basically say the same thing, and they have all been written and re written to suit the writers.

And every single one is so complex that it needs a philadelphia lawyer to explain it and has so many clauses and caveats in 'em that actually you can do almost exactly what you want as long as you can find a suitable justification in the text.

 

If you can't find a convenient passage, you INTERPRET one so it means what you want it to mean.

 

And when no justification at all can be found, what do most folk do?

 

They ignore it of course.:-|

 

 

 

What's wrong with good old fashioned common sense?

[Bookworm]

Amen to that, Chris.

[The Watcher]

Agreed, Chris. As I said in my post to Lula (above) its the CORE values that matter - not someone else's interpretation of them.

 

If we stuck to the core values - the world would be a better place? No ?

[chris600uk]

Yep that's the one:)

 

The basic message (core belief) in every religion is the same.

[Lula]

Aren't the core values of the top 5 religions virtually the same though? so why all the strife?

[The Watcher]

Aren't the core values of the top 5 religions virtually the same though? so why all the strife?

 

As Chris said, its when people try and "add" extra interpretation that the problems arise. People accept someone else's interpretation (or understanding) as if it were the word of God. The extra "dogma" "rites" etc are all superfluous.