Anybody Fancy Some Fun ?

[Worzel]

Jeez people, try to keep the list up to date please

 

So far we have

 

Surreyscouse 6/7/2006

Worzel 5/7/2006

Stacymason5/7/06

Paulcaley

Gizmo111

Norvernrob

thfctimmo

dellydaisy

Bryony84

Davefirewalker

downsouth 6/7/06

Malcontent

EricTheRed6/7/06

Mercedes 6/7/06

Aromatherapy

Dodger

 

and the following currently umming and arring

 

Marincor

Sophie-Jane

 

Come on, lets have some more - spread the word to everyone you know that have been done over by MBNA

 

Worz

[surreyscouse]

I don't see how it can affect your ongoing claims. This is seperate. Still proceed with the claims and also do this. You will get the charges refunded no problem but the "signed agreement lottery" could get rid of the whole debt.

 

If in doubt then don't do it, but remember, I have already had my charges refunded, issued a summons for DPA breach and I am more than happy to do this as well !

[kevcam]

Hi,

 

I reckon anyone taking part in this would likely end up getting done for credit card fraud.

 

If you claim you have never had an agreement with the credit card company surely they just have to look at the useage of the card and see that you have used it, either in the shops or to order goods to your house.

 

I think its a bad idea. It also takes you down to their level.

 

Stick with getting your charges back, it keeps you in the right, and them in the wrong.

 

Sorry just my opinion, and I know it won't be popular.

[surreyscouse]

Stu,

 

Good on you for voicing your opinions. As I say, if you are in any doubt then don't do this.

 

Plain and simple in my eyes though, no agreement, no debt.

 

MBNA have given me untold amounts of grief over the years, now I am in a position to give them some back. some of the other people on here have suffered a lot worse than me. I mean, 5 calls a day, 20 calls over a 2 day period, do you think that is fair ? Nah, thought not. We are actually treating them a lot better than they have treated us over time by writing to them and allowing them to hide behind a letter as opposed to having to speak to us consistantly.

 

As for the credit card fraud, what are we doing wrong ? We are simply asking for a copy of our credit agreements. What we do when they do or don't send them to us is at our discretion. Initially, our aim is to cause a little bit of havoc in their offices by putting a load of requests in at the same time.

 

Your comments do not make you unpopular in my eyes, valid observation i suppose but i do not think they could impose any kind of fraud charge against us without the signed agreement and besides, it would cost them more than most of our credit limits to take us to court, in my case less than £5k which they wouldn't be able to recover.

 

As I say, if you are unsure then don't do it, but we are doing nothing wrong in asking for a copy of our signed agreements.

[BigCol]

Count me in, 2 MCs with MBNA (RAFA & Virgin)!

 

Surreyscouse 6/7/2006

Worzel 5/7/2006

Stacymason5/7/06

Paulcaley

Gizmo111

Norvernrob

thfctimmo

dellydaisy

Bryony84

Davefirewalker

downsouth 6/7/06

Malcontent

EricTheRed6/7/06

Mercedes 6/7/06

Aromatherapy

Dodger

BigCol45 5/7/06;)

 

 

[Worzel]

Hi,

 

I reckon anyone taking part in this would likely end up getting done for credit card fraud.

 

If you claim you have never had an agreement with the credit card company surely they just have to look at the usage of the card and see that you have used it, either in the shops or to order goods to your house.

 

I think it’s a bad idea. It also takes you down to their level.

 

Stick with getting your charges back, it keeps you in the right, and them in the wrong.

 

Sorry just my opinion, and I know it won't be popular.

 

Stu, thanks for your input. It's always good to hear another’s point of view.

 

If the bank were to take this further and try to do me for credit card fraud then surely I would ask the question why, over a period of three years, were they happy to allow it to continue?

 

Also, I'm under the impression that I DO have an agreement with MBNA, that’s why I am happy to pay interest on my account, payments at specified dates/amounts, etc. It is on the basis that I have a legally binding credit agreement that I have been maintaining my credit card.

 

If it transpires that I do not have a legal credit agreement then surely MBNA are not in a position to charge me interest on their credit? If there is no credit agreement then they have provided that facility on their own free will surely? Also, if we have been operating on an understanding between us both then surely they cannot change their fees, interest rate, etc, willy-nilly.

 

I'm a fair man Stu, and if I took this to the end and it transpires that there is not a legally binding credit agreement between MBNA and Worzel then I'd be happy to pay back the EXACT amount of credit they have given me. I would not be prepared to pay over the top interest, penalty charges or anything else I deemed to have been imposed by MBNA without the agreement of both sides - i.e. them and me.

 

Of course, if no credit agreement means that I am free to forget about my debt at the expense of MBNA then that would be an added bonus

 

As for me going down to their level then I can kind of see where you are coming from, but how can defending my own legal right or standing be a bad thing? Banks have been doing it for years - and (it appears) undertaking illegal practices such as imposing unlawful penalty charges

 

For years Joe Public has just accepted that businesses operate within the law and has been happy to stand back and take what is thrown to them. But now Joe Public is getting wiser!

 

Stu, you may view me (us) as bad as the banks and that is your prerogative, but I admit to taking some offence at that stance. Unlike banks I do not take advantage of those in trouble. I do not impose further misery on those struggling to survive by harassing them constantly and I do not operate outside of the law!

 

Having said that you are free to express your opinion!

 

Worz

[surreyscouse]

Good words Worz.

 

Only thing that I would add from a personal point of view is that if there is no credit agreement then I shouldn't have paid them a penny. In which case, I would be inclined to get back every penny that I paid them over the past 5 years. Not suggesting everybody should do this but I will make their life hell if they don't have the agreement

[Worzel]

Surrey

 

Effectively what you are saying is that if there is no credit agreement then MBNA have given you this money of their own free will? And that you have made no agreement to pay it back?

 

If that's how things stand in law then who am I to argue

 

Worz

 

PS PM sent about something you may want to look into - away from the prying eyes of MBNA loiters

[surreyscouse]

Pm received and replied to Worz.

 

Obviously the only reason I have paid MBNA is because they constantly called me and intimidated me threatening to mess up my credit file. need mortgage, car etc so couldn't risk it. Possibly a bit heavy !

 

As I say, no agreement no debt. Simple !

[lisa0702]

Like this

 

I'm in too:

 

Surreyscouse

Stacymason

Paulcaley

Gizmo111

Norvernrob

thfctimmo

dellydaisy

Worzel

lisa0702

[Worzel]

Hi Lisa - thanks for the support. I've added you to the PROPER list

 

You're just under BigCol45

 

Surreyscouse 6/7/2006

Worzel 5/7/2006

Stacymason5/7/06

Paulcaley

Gizmo111

Norvernrob

thfctimmo

dellydaisy

Bryony84

Davefirewalker

downsouth 6/7/06

Malcontent

EricTheRed6/7/06

Mercedes 6/7/06

Aromatherapy

Dodger

BigCol45 5/7/06

Lisa0702

 

Worz

[BigCol]

That sounds like it could be fun, fnyuck phnarr etc!

[Worzel]

Eighteen on the list so far but we need more!

 

If you're sitting on the sidelines reading this and you're unsure whether you want to join in then what have you got to loose?

 

£1.00 thats all it will cost plus about £1.00 postage - and all you are doing is asking for a copy of your credit agreement. There's nothing wrong or under-handed about that! You don't even have to take things further if you don't want to.

 

But come on, be honest, you're interested in this and secretly hoping that someone may get their MBNA debt put aside - and that person could be you

 

Worz

[BigCol]

Worzel,

 

may be a daft question but currently suffering from lack of caffeine! As I have 2 accounts with them, do I send 2 letters (seperately or in same envelope), one letter with both accounts on or what? I want both treated as seperate claims but I'm willing to post them together.

 

Doh.....need cawfee!

[Worzel]

Col

 

I'd send two letters each with £1.00 and each in seperate envelopes - double the fun I'd say

 

If you want to take things further you can then treat them as seperate issues and will have documentation for each from the start of the process.

 

Worz

[BigCol]

Roger that Worz!

 

I had already tryped out 2 letters, but lack of blood to the brain prevented obvious lightbulb moment....

[Robertxc]

This all sounds like a lot of fun!

 

Before you all rush off and do this thing, can I perhaps offer some thoughts for you to consider?

 

The rules requiring the credit card company to provide copies of agrements within a specific time were put in place to stop unscrupulous companies 'making up' credit ageements, or getting people to unwittingly sign up for things. The rules were not put in place as a loophole for people to avoid their legitimate obligations.

 

I am someone who spends more time than I should in court, usually suing some big company that's annoyed me - and you can be assured that I'm no friend of the banks. That being said, I'd like to offer you my view of what I think will happen if you attempt this.

 

In the first instance, the bank will completely ignore you when you try to maintain that because they didn't provide a copy of the agreement within the specified time, you don't have to pay them. They'll keep sending you the nasty letters, until eventually they'll sue you.

 

When this happens, you'll all go to court (probably Fastrack - banks don't do small claims, remember).

 

The bank will provide incontrivertible evidence that they lent you money, and that you took it and spent it, probably in the form of statements etc. You will provide evidence that they didn't send you a copy of the agreement within a month.

 

At this point, the only thing the judge will be particularly interested in is whether you borrowed the money or not. He'll probably ask you that question quite bluntly. Now you have a choice. You can either try to pretend that you didn't borrow the money - in the face of all the documentary evidence, or you can agree that you did borrow the money. In either case you lose the case and end up liable for costs.

 

The basis of contract law in this country is really about the intention. Any way you care to look at it, the bank not providing you with a copy agreement in time does not mean that you don't have to pay them. At most, it means that they can't enforce it until they do provide the agreement. You can be 100% certain that by the time you all get to court they will have filed a copy of your agreement, and it will be exhibit number one.

 

One other thing to consider. Woe betide you if the judge thinks that you're part of some organised scheme to get out of paying your loan. At the very least you could expect to be hit for the bank's entire costs, which could quite possibly be into five figures.

 

This is all just my opinion, and you should feel entirely free to ignore it. May I suggest however that you at least have a quick chat with a lawyer before you embark on something which could very well end up being ruinously expensive.

[alanfromderby]

I would just add to that, as I have been involved heavily with the Debt Collection Agencies thread, where the CCA request has been discussed in detail.

 

In cases where a Debt Collection Agency is seeking payment, you can rightly request that they provide evidence that they are entitled to be seeking to enforce the debt.

 

If you have taken out a loan with a company, or use one of it's credit cards, you know that you have an agreement. Any attempt to catch out the company on a technicality, will be seen that way be a Judge - and whilst he may rap them over the knuckles for not responding, he is certainly not going to find in your favour.

 

In all the cases where I have been able to use the CCA request to my advantage, ALL of the following have applied:

 

a) the debt has been sold to a DCA

b) the debt is disputed because of unlawful charges

c) the bank/lender has failed to provide details under a DSAR, or has admitted that the documents have been destroyed.

 

Finally, I would advise against treating any of the legal actions, or other suggested processes, on this site as a means of providing a source of "fun".

 

Once ANY action is taken, you can be sure that there will be consequences. Having to explain your actions in front of a Judge is very serious - especially when you really have no legal basis for what you have done.

[Sophie-Jane]

Hi Robert & Alan

 

Thank you for that information

 

That is what I needed to know, the last thing I, and I am sure many others may wish for is to end up in court and pay the other party costs.

 

I will not be going down the track that has been suggested, unless all of the 3 points which you have stated Alan are there.

 

a) the debt has been sold to a DCA

b) the debt is disputed because of unlawful charges

c) the bank/lender has failed to provide details under a DSAR, or has admitted that the documents have been destroyed.

 

 

Thank you again Robert & Alan

 

Such a wealth of info, and advise on here, Listen before acting, and decide what path is best for you, Do not Jump at one persons suggestion as you may end up worse off

[Worzel]

Thanks for the responses so far.

 

Firstly, my mention of 'twice the fun' was purely a figure of speech; when it comes to fighting the bank's immoral and unlawful action I do not actually consider it to be fun - more a serious stance for what is right.

 

I take on board what has been said in the last three posts, and whilst my initial attitude may be 'I'm skint therefore sue me for all I have!' I (amongst others) clearly have something to thing about!

 

However, please consider this; we are merely asking for a copy of the credit agreement between ourselves and MBNA. That, in itself, does not pose any risk to us in the form of follow-up action or costs. We have a right to ask for such information and MBNA have a duty to respond under the Credit Consumer Act 1974. Should they fail to respond then the individual concerned has to consider their next move.

 

It appears that the Credit Consumer Act considers a credit agreement that is not properly documented and signed by the customer to be totally unenforceable under that act. I can’t see that whether or not a debt has been sold to a DCA has a bearing on this statement; it’s either a legal debt or its not!

 

Alan, in your post you say “If you have taken out a loan with a company, or use one of it's credit cards, you know that you have an agreement.” Sorry, but I don’t KNOW that I have, I ASSUME that I have an agreement, and I ASSUME that agreement operates within the law. However, I also assumed that they would act responsibly in helping me should I get into trouble with my debt. MBNA have proven that they do not act responsibly; they have harassed me with several calls a day even when I have made an agreement with them and they have continued to apply charges (and therefore increase my debt) even when I have been working with ‘an agency’ to get myself back on track.

 

In short, MBNA have proven to be a parasite, feeding off my bad fortune and increasing my debt in the process. I have always been fair with them, I have always acknowledged my debt to them and I have always tried to put things right.

 

Just this month my statement showed that a payment of £70odd would be taken by DD from my bank account; as it turned out they tried to take £120odd pound and the DD was returned. Why did they try to take £120odd? In the process I have incurred £15.00 bank charges, and I have no doubt that MBNA will add another £25.00 late payment fee to my account!

 

MBNA are the lowest of the low, they operate outside the boundaries of the law and they feed off those in trouble.

 

Sure, my actions towards MBNA may not prove to be right in the eyes of the law, it may even be foolish, but MBNA have caused me so much stress in the past that I’m willing to take my chances!

 

MBNA, as you will see from the many threads on this site, are the lowest of the low and the time has come for their victims to fight back!

 

Thanks for your comments but in these initial stages I will pursue the CCA route and see where it leads me!

 

Worz

[alanfromderby]

Alan, in your post you say “If you have taken out a loan with a company, or use one of it's credit cards, you know that you have an agreement.” Sorry, but I don’t KNOW that I have, I ASSUME that I have an agreement,

 

This shows a clear lack of knowledge of the Consume Credit Act.

 

If you visited the cash point recently, issued a cheque, authorised a Direct Debit, used a Debit Card - you have a contract. Whether it is written down on paper is irrelevant, by your very act of doing one of the above you have accepted that there is a contract.

 

There is no "assumption" to that point - by law you have, and you are bound by its terms, unless you can show that they are unfair, or unlawful. Then you are disputing the terms of the contract - not its existance.

[Worzel]

Thanks for your comments Alan - which I take on board!

 

Unfortunately I am fuelled by the way in which I have been treated by MBNA and I have every desire to see them suffer, if for no other reason than to address the balance slightly.

 

However, in my earlier post I did say "I (amongst others) clearly have something to think about" and I will look into this further.

 

Worz

[alanfromderby]

I have to say that I am furious with the way Abbey have treated me over the years. The sense of powerlessness as you see them taking money out of your account has taken its toll on our family, and I have suffered badly through stress.

 

The very fact that the founders of this site have sought to share in their experiences has enabled me to turn the tables on the banks - and be in no doubt that the £1m shown on the survey is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

Everyone has ways of focusing their anger, mine has been channelled into helping this site to grow, and ensure that more people are able to take back control of their lives.

 

I believe this site is hurting the banks - maybe not financially, but it is causing them serious administrative difficulties and, more importantly, it is also part of a bigger cultural change in that people are becoming less afraid to challenge their banks - and call them to account when they act in an unlawful manner.

[surreyscouse]

well well well, MBNA's defence has been received with 7 points on it. too long to write out but I'll shorten it as best I can.

 

1. I have an account with them

 

2. They admit they charged me fees and that they have credited them (£560 but not mentioned numerically). They also deny that these fees represent penalties and that they are not unfair/unenforceable

 

3. Interest calculated on those fees was £xxx.xx (approx 27.5% of £560)

 

4. Without prejudice to point 2 for some reason, they have credited my account with a further £330.00. This being the cost of my claim at £300 plus the court fee of £30. omething they have been told not to do.

 

5. Quite a bit here regarding the DPA.

 

a. I requested detail on 5th April

b. Apparently they then contacted me to check I wanted a full request and apparently I said I DID NOT. Funny, I don't recall them contacting me. In fact, apparently I only asked for transactional info and agreed to NOT making a full dpa request. That is all lies, I never agreed to that.

c. 2 copies of my statements were unavailable but transaction details were sent. Very well, they did send transactions, but check your records boys, it was 7 statements that were missing

d. MBNA is not aware of any formal request for a copy of the signed credit agreement under DPA. Not yet you are not !

 

6. MBNA denies being in breach of DPA, well of course they would.

 

7. MBNA also denies that I have suffered distress and I am not entitled to damages

 

 

Quite a defence for £300 if you ask me. So here is what happens next.

 

I called Michael Rhodes office on Friday afternoon and spoke to a pleasant young lady and said I wanted to speak to Gareth Tunniclife. Was told he is out today and he'll call Monday. No phone call so far though.

 

Basically, they have done exactly what I told them not to do. They have credited the account. So, they can uncredit the account and send me the cheque or I will see them in court. They will do exactly as I say.

 

Also, they can credit my account with the interestas that shouldn't be on there either. also, they provide no evidence or calculation on the interest so how do I know if this is correct ?

 

So they think they can just credit my account and I'll go away, wrong, this is going down to the wire my friends !

[MARTIN3030]

Presumably your request was for full dpa disclosure in your original contact ?

That can be proven.

If they say you agreed to only partial disclosure after they contacted you then they will have to prove it.

Did you put your request for non payment to your account in favour of the cheque in writing ?

Have you kept copies of all your communications ?

 

They are really taking the p***