Sister v LLoydsTSB Credit cards.

[Opalie]

Have all the statements, so will work through these.

 

Sent off a CCA, should have a reply by 5th October

Op's

[rory32]

Why did you send a CCA request if you are reclaiming charges?

[Opalie]

Why did you send a CCA request if you are reclaiming charges?

 

Thought it was pretty much the norm for credit cards /blush

 

As so many don't seem to have the original agreements.

 

 

Not so the normal way huh

 

Ops

[rory32]

Well if they don't have a copy of the agreement the debt is unenforceable. They can however offset the charges you are reclaiming against the account, so there are really only two reasons for reclaiming charges if an agreement is unenforceable:

 

1. If the charges are more than the amount owing on the account (remember you can charge interest at the contractual rate on cc charges)

2. If you are planning on offering a reduced full and final and are looking to reduce the balance of the account before making the full and final offer.

[Opalie]

Ummm now I am really confused.

 

If the debt is unenforceable, then surely that means there is no debt as such.

 

However, I am sure LLoydsTsb will have a copy of the original agreement to be honest, but I do wonder if that would be for the original limit or the current one, and if indeed this would even make a difference.

 

I would guess it is better to wait and see if they have the original CCA, then think on the options re: charges or unenforceable. Her limit is £10k , which I pay for her, as she is on DLA.

 

And it got into a right old mess about 4 -6 months ago. But before that it was I think running smoothly. I need to check the statements though.

 

Op's

[rory32]

If the debt is unenforceable, then surely that means there is no debt as such.

 

Not quite. The debt still exists it's just the case that the debt could not be enforced in a court of law, so it's then her choice whether she pays the account or not. She may wish to offer a low full and final settlement at some point if there is no agreement (say around 10%) on the basis that in return they remove adverse entries on her credit record.

 

How old is the account? If it's over 6 years old they may not have a copy of the credit agreement.

 

I would guess it is better to wait and see if they have the original CCA, then think on the options

That would seem like the best idea, yes.

[Opalie]

Thanks Rory, most helpful

 

Think she opened it in 2003, with a credit limit of 2.5k.

 

So most likley they will have a copy.

 

I need to go through her statements really.

 

OPs

[Opalie]

Well did spready today, while waiting for CCA.

 

I added in cash advance fees, that ok to do that?

She only had 5 late payment fees

 

And am I right in thinking we don't add in the interest they charged her each month?

 

Thanks for any help

 

Op's

[rory32]

I added in cash advance fees, that ok to do that?

 

No as the fee is actually for a service e.g. the cash.

 

And am I right in thinking we don't add in the interest they charged her each month?

 

You can charge interest on the penalty charges at the same %age rate as the card.

[Opalie]

Well not sure where we stand with this.

 

Received CCA response, no letter just the signed form, looks like an application form to me, with just her signature and date on it, and signed under the credit agreement 1974 bit. She took her card out in 2003.

 

I will try and scan in and post for your perusal.

 

I am concerned that as she has only really made just above the minimum payments how they could keep offering credit (started at 2.5k). She did pay it off once with a lump sum about 2 years ago when her divorce came through and the card stood at 5k, but since then the limit has risen to 7.5 and then 10k, while she is on benefits.

 

1. I asume it is enforceable, but please clarify once I link.

 

2. Is there any ground for persuing irresponsibly increasing the limit when she was only making just above minimum payments?

 

3. The charges she has gained over the last few months are very small, so i don't really feel that way is a good way forward to help her.

 

OP's

[Opalie]

okies, giving these links a try

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff88/opalie/agreement_WORKED.jpg

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff88/opalie/lloydstsb_worked.jpg

[rory32]

It's just an application so is not enforceable as a credit agreement.

[Opalie]

It's just an application so is not enforceable as a credit agreement.

 

Thanks for the response.

Where does that lead? What do I need to do next please?

 

Ta

 

Op's

[rory32]

Was there no letter at all with the copy of the application form? Ideally you want them to confirm in writing that this is a copy of the credit agreement. I would write back to them and ask them to confirm that what they have set you is indeed a copy of the agreement. They would then not be able to produce something else later as a copy of the agreement (this is unlikely as they've probably given you all they've got).

[Opalie]

K thanks Rory

 

This was just sent with a compliment slip.

 

How about I send them a non compliance CCA request? or do you think devising a letter would be better?

 

op's

[shane5408]

Hi Opalie,

 

just to let you know i replied to your message on the CCA thread

 

 

regards,

shane

[rory32]

I think a simple letter would be better. Ideally if they are happy that this is a copy of the agreement then you should accept it as such, but point out once they have confirmed that it is that it isn't enforceable.

[shane5408]

burning the midnight oil then Rory! I though I was bad!! lol.

 

Might Opalie send the letter under cpr 4.6? I know pre action protocols only really tend to apply when court action is imminent but this way if it ever came to court Lloyds would look pretty silly, in fact judge would most likely throw the case out should they try and provide a separate agreement in lieu of this one?

 

regards.

shane

[rory32]

Might Opalie send the letter under cpr 4.6?

I understand where you are coming from Shane, but don't feel it would be appropriate at this stage. A simple statement from the creditor confirming that what they have supplied is a copy of the credit agreement will suffice.

[Opalie]

Ok

 

Thanks again, I devised a very simple letter, which I should get back signed by my sister the end of the week hopefully.

 

I put a timeline of 12 days for them, I think this is pretty fair to be honest. So hopefully in 3 weeks time, they would of responded.

 

If anyone has a template letter that I can prepare ready for my sister to sign for non enforcement, I would appreciate it, as I do have a bit of a process to go through everytime I send a letter and it delays things by over a week normally.

 

Thanks

 

OP's

[Opalie]

Just a little update.

 

They confirmed in the end on the phone, that all they had was the application form. They haven't responded in writing at all to date.

 

We also sent a letter saying it was unenforceable, and gave them 14 days, to return any payments submited as we didn't recognize we have a 'debt'.

 

That 14 days has also now passed and no response, so I am uncertain as where to go now with this.

 

They phone about non payment of the last month, and after talking to loads of people including India, finally got them to agree to no more phone calls, but letters would still arrive.

 

I pointed out they were in criminal blah blah and read what they should not be doing about adding interest etc. Which by the way they didn't apply this month, however, they did add a late payment charge.

 

Any advise please?

 

OP's

[Jeff2000]

Just a little update.

 

They confirmed in the end on the phone, that all they had was the application form. They haven't responded in writing at all to date.

 

We also sent a letter saying it was unenforceable, and gave them 14 days, to return any payments submited as we didn't recognize we have a 'debt'.

 

That 14 days has also now passed and no response, so I am uncertain as where to go now with this.

 

They phone about non payment of the last month, and after talking to loads of people including India, finally got them to agree to no more phone calls, but letters would still arrive.

 

I pointed out they were in criminal blah blah and read what they should not be doing about adding interest etc. Which by the way they didn't apply this month, however, they did add a late payment charge.

 

Any advise please?

 

OP's

 

 

 

 

Hello Opalie,

 

 

First of all it is time to stop speaking to them on the phone. Next time you contact them, tell them that you will only be contacting them in writing! You also need them to admit they only have an application form in writing.

 

The next step is up to you really. Have you stopped paying them? Are you wanting them to take you to court in order that the account is judged unenforceable? Or are you planning on making a reduced full and final offer?

 

 

Best wishes, Jeff.