Paypal Dictatorship!!

[Dimebag]

Hiya Guys,

I'm posting on behalf of my wife...here is the story so far, I do hope someone can help as she's getting increasingly worried!

 

I used Buy It Now for a phone on eBay. Seller still hadn't sent the phone after 5 days or so, so I asked for a refund. After he said no a couple of times, he sent the payment, which was lovely, thank you very much . He even added a note to the paypal payment saying 'Here is your refund, sorry we couldn't do business this time'.

Paypal account was nil balance, I had me money back, all was well.

Then 40+ days later, had an email from Paypal, telling me the refund payment had been queried as it wasn't an eBay payment , and the way he'd issued the payment, made me look like a seller, even though he was simply issuing me a refund.Apparently he'd not used the 'Issue Refund' option, and had just sent me a payment using the regular method. Now I've done this a couple of times and my payments were never queried.

Paypal kept me waiting for a week or so, and then emailed me to tell me they'd sent the payment back to the seller - the guy who didn't want to refund me, and I since found out, had conned a load of the other buyers on the auction

I've been mailing Paypal non-stop about this since the initial email, but their final line is:

"As it's over 45 days, you can't submit a dispute."

However - Paypal had the payment in dispute already, which meant I couldn't raise a payment within their timescales. I hadn't raised a dispute before as I already had my refund, so I was happy. Paypal hadn't raised a query until the 45 day limit had arrived, so there was no possible way I would be able to get my money back

I rang them and they told me that I couldn't do anything to get my money back from them, and to claim through eBay. However, thanks to crap advice from Senan, one of their helpdesk guys, I missed the 60 day eBay time limit by 2 days, as he told me to submit a dispute, which apparently, he wasn't allowed to do.

So basically, I'm out £225 (minus £7.85 fees), my dodgy seller has my money, Paypal won't help, and if I don't pay Paypal the outstanding amount of £217.15 this month, then Paypal will get debt collectors onto me to recover the amount

Timeline:

Auction Ended: July 13th 2007

Paid by Paypal: July 13th

Refund Issued to Me: July 18th (5 days from start)

Refund Queried by Paypal: August 26th (45 days from start - handy, Paypal)

My Refund Returned to Seller: September 12th

****ed Off: August 26th - present day..

HELP!!!

Many many thanks

[Conniff]

Oops posted twice - silly me.

[Conniff]

Hi Dimebag

 

I thought to myself before I got to the part where you said he had conned other - this is a conn.

 

I have just done a search and quite a few come up and with the same complaint that you have.

I remember one of the threads where he issued a court summons and won with no problem, so have a look.

 

There are a lot of conns on ebay and they know all the tricks in the book.

 

If you ever have this happen again, transfer the money out of paypal immediately and then let the dispute run from there.

 

I hope you get this sorted. Having read about so many scams I would not buy anything with that sort of price tag myself.

 

I think there are a lot of people who make a very good living out of ebay this way.

[Conniff]

ONe of those other threads says that they use a credit card and if the bank makes a chargeback then paypal has no alternative than to chargeback to the bank.

[lookinforinfo]

Do you have the address of the guy, and if so does he live in the UK?

If yes, give him ten days to refund or you will sue him.

And if Paypal get funny tell the incompetent gits to take you to Court since they shouldn't have taken your money in the first place and if they do, countersue them.

[Goldlady]

I think this is called fraud and you need to involve the police.

[Conniff]

Come on, this isn't a speeding offence or a brakelight not working.

 

I bet the police would fob you off with "there is nothing they can do about it".

[Goldlady]

As someone who was fined for not wearing a seatbelt when 8 months pregnant when the police radios were screaming for assistance with a massive pub fight I would be inclined to agree with you.

[CAGisforME]

Hi Dimebag.

 

Sorry to hear that you have been conned. Unfortunately this is one of the ways that Paypal's 24,000 word User Agreement assists those who are less than honest in conning those who don't know the rules as well as the con-artists do.

 

It's fairly obvious that the seller sent you a paypal payment (rather than hit the "issue refund" bit at the bottom of the transaction) and did it on a credit card. That way, should he want to recall the payment Paypal would have no choice but to refund the Card Company, given that the CC Co would think the payment had not been authorised by the seller.

 

This is why it's advisable NEVER to spend more than you can afford to lose using Paypal, whether with ebay or not. Ebay will wash their hands of this with their usual "We are only a venue" excuse, completely ignoring the fact that if they wanted to they could ensure ALL sellers were verified before allowing them to sell high end items.

 

So, after that background, what to do?.....

 

Can you give us the item number, or the seller's ebay id? That would give us a clue as to what we are dealing with. I'm wondering whether it could have been a "hijacked account" and the real owner of the credit card quite legitimately recalled his payments because he didn't authorise them. Again, unfortunately, this is not all that uncommon on ebay.

 

Meanwhile Paypal have some questions to answer, as, if you are correct in that you were not the only one "done" like this by the seller they will already be aware of the fact.

 

You need to get a "law enforcement officer" - as paypal call them, we call them Policemen, involved.

 

I would advise copying out all the correspondence from the seller etc and Paypal and going to see your local police station. Many have officers who deal with ebay etc, as it's becoming a bit of a hot potato.

 

This is FRAUD. Plain and simple. This person took money by deception. If you have an address etc from your Paypal transaction I suggest you give it to the Police. Along with email addresses etc. I would also suggest getting in touch with anyone else that you know was turned over too. This helps your case and you in turn help theirs.

 

Good Luck.

 

[Dimebag]

Hi guys - thanks for your feedback :0

Mrs Dimebag here

 

K, well I'm so fed up with all this that I'm thinking about just paying the money grabbing ****s the money to get rid of them, as it wasn't the seller that queried the payment, it was Paypal. The seller had refunded me and had done it from his paypal balance, so I can't really hold him responsible...

 

His user ID is: 644 Squadron and the auction number was: 230152113009

(MOTORIZR Z8 - New Phone from Motorola - Limited Stock! - eBay, Mobile Phones, Mobile Home Phones (end time 15-Jul-07 10:22:13 BST))

 

I did, however, contact some of the other buyers after I paid, to see if they'd had their item, and none of them had. One said she'd got a refund, and advised me to do the same.

 

Another buyer said he'd received his phone, but it was a cheaper model than advertised on the auction and was a poor rip off...

 

Really not sure what to do - I've sent him a paypal payment request, with a brief explanation of what's happened, in the hope that he'll refund my money.. although he's no longer a registered user on eBay, which doesn't bode well...

 

Thanks again for all your help

[Dimebag]

Oh, and have tried calling the police - after the 2nd time of waiting on hold in excess of 20 minutes, I gave up

[CAGisforME]

Ok,

 

The item number and auction refer to the seller as shop4militaria

 

644squadron is No Longer a Registered User, but also in Country Antrim. Strange.

 

Why do you refer to the seller as 644 Squadron?

 

The feedback on the ACTUAL seller of the phone auction you linked to is here:

 

http://feedback.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=shop4militaria&&ftab=FeedbackAsSeller&sspagename=VIP:feedback:2:uk&iid=230152113009

 

Doesn't make pretty reading.

 

Can I just say that I think you are being a little too trusting. It was NOT paypal that requested that the payment to you be reversed, it was the seller. Unless the seller didn't have the funds to complete the transaction, in which case the money would never have hit your account.

 

There is something dodgy here and the guy knows more than he's obviously telling you.

 

It looks like he is breaking several rules, claiming the items are with him, when in fact they are cheap copies from China. I could go on.

 

The point is the seller IS on ebay still and therefore as the buyer of the item you can request their contact details here:

 

you can request additional contact information directly from eBay. First, click on the "Advanced Search" link under the "Search" button in the eBay header. Next, click on the "Find Contact Information" link on the left-hand side of the page. Note: In order to obtain contact information from another member you have to have a transaction in common.

 

 

 

You can call them (if their telephone number isn't phoney) and ask them where your money is.

 

I wouldn't bother telephoning the police, you need to go and SEE them, I would advise copying out all the correspondence from the seller etc and Paypal and going to see your local police station.

 

Unfortunately you only have 45 days to raise an "item not received" claim with Paypal, thereby freezing the funds until you are refunded. You only have 60 days to raise a complaint with ebay. However, as the transaction was done through paypal, you would have been referred there anyway.

 

 

 

You can also try posting the problem on the Ebay Community Board here:

 

eBay: Community: Discussion Boards

 

Good Luck

[Dimebag]

Hi

 

"The item number and auction refer to the seller as shop4militaria

 

644squadron is No Longer a Registered User, but also in Country Antrim. Strange.

 

Why do you refer to the seller as 644 Squadron?"

When I bought the item, the paypal reference was 644squadron, which came up automatically on clicking the paypal link in the auction. All the paypal chrages/frozen payments/reversal etc were addressed to 644squadron too...

 

You're right saying I was being trusting - stupidly trusting, as it goes Normally I check everything out about the seller when spending a fair bit of cash, as I'm a phone addict and buy and sell alot on eBay - when I did all my feedback checks etc before buying the phone, his feedback was just peachy, so off I went as usual.. absolutely no warning signs at all

 

Request complete!

 

Your request has been processed, and you will receive an email message containing contact information for the member shop4militaria

 

Your contact information will also be provided to this member via email.

I've also contacted the seller under shop4militaria and requested a refund using funds, not a credit card payment, and have advised him that if nothing's recevied after 10 days, then I'll be contacting the police to report the fraud, and will commence legal action against him.

 

Let's see how I get on...

 

Thanks again for your help

[jaxads]

I would just like to add that my experiences with paypal have left me out of pocket to the tune of £380!!!! Wouldn't use them again - ever!!

[davethorp]

There are a number of problems using paypal both as a buyer and a seller. I tend to avoid it like the plague

 

Unfortunately, ebay are attempting to further paypal's dominance by making paypal compulsory for a number of categories on ebay. The most worrying one of these is the games consoles category that is just going to leave people wide open to fraud

[Conniff]

Hi guys - thanks for your feedback :0

Mrs Dimebag here

 

The seller had refunded me and had done it from his paypal balance, so I can't really hold him responsible...

 

 

This was a con from the start, he knew exactly which button he was pressing and why.

The is one of ebays family of thieving **** and is totally responsible for the planned theft.

[Dimebag]

Folks - brace yourselves....

 

He returned my money!

 

As suggested, I obtained his contact details thru eBay and got another email address for him. I explained everything, sent him the paypal emails, and he returned my money today, so my Paypal balance is now zero!

 

At the moment, I'm totally chuffed to bits, and should remain so, as long as Paypal don't mess me about again :/

 

Thank you all *so* much for your help and all the advice you've given me - couldn't have done it without you!

 

THANK YOU!! :D :D

 

Vic (Mrs Dimebag)

[jaxads]

WOW !!!

 

Well done you

[Dimebag]

WOW !!!

 

Well done you

 

Thank you

Not sure how long to wait on tenterhooks to see if Paypal take that away as well

 

Turned 34 on Friday - so far, it's turning out to be a pretty good age

[Guest 10110001]

Oh, and have tried calling the police - after the 2nd time of waiting on hold in excess of 20 minutes, I gave up

 

Phoning the police will get you nowhere, and even if you did speak to someone they'll pass it off as a civil matter. Write to the police and make a complaint against paypal under Section 15A(1) of the Theft Act 1968 for Misappropriation of Funds (embezzlement). You might still get fobbed off with the it's a civil matter comment.

 

Unfortunately paypal are a law into itself when handling other peoples money and its why Ive never trusted it unless paying with a credit card, otherwise there is no security for you if a transaction fails or you are defrauded.

 

Did you pay paypal with a credit card? You can ask for a chargeback under the Consumer Protection (Distance Selling) Regulations and it will be debited out of paypal's merchant account.It’s then up to paypal to take a civil action against you or the seller and you will probably lose your ebay and paypal account in the process.

 

EBay is based in Switzerland so its is out of jurisdiction, and the Consumer Protection (Offshore datacenters) Regulations did not become law - no surprise there... otherwise you would have had restitution from eBay itself because you lost money from a transaction that took place on its website.

 

Ebay and Paypal have a history of excluding themselves from liability by placing themselves beyond reach of the UK civil legal system.

[Conniff]

Congratualtions Dimebag - I didn't really think you would get it.

[Dimebag]

10110001 - thank you, I'll keep your advice saved on my PC, incase Paypal decide to take my money yet again.. at least for now, it's sorted.

 

Paypal are devils though, iI'm so loathe to use them again, but they know they're the most convenient way of paying for eBay items

[Dimebag]

Congratualtions Dimebag - I didn't really think you would get it.

 

Me neither! Had hubby not suggested posting on here, I'd have given in and paid the money, just to get Paypal off my back!

 

Thank you

[Guest 10110001]

10110001 - thank you, I'll keep your advice saved on my PC, incase Paypal decide to take my money yet again.. at least for now, it's sorted.

 

Paypal are devils though, iI'm so loathe to use them again, but they know they're the most convenient way of paying for eBay items

 

Paypal is the only way as far as I know.

 

eBay will even go as far as defaming, slandering or indicate that rivals including Western Union are an unsafe money transfer company.

 

[Dimebag]

I'd noticed their little Western Union comments before, but it never registered.. Is Nochex still going?