Credit AGREEMENT -or- APPLICATION? RBS Advantage Card

[diskmandave]

Lots of new users here these last few days

 

 

So, here's a poser for U all... Is the following a correctly recieved credit agreement, or... Just a copy of an original application form for credit...?

 

Here it is:

 

 

Let the posting begin!

[dx100uk]

shop application form

 

dx100uk

[lookinforinfo]

It is not an application form, as it states quite clearly just below the APR that

it is a credit agreement.

The only thing I would query is why there is no signature box for both parties

to sign, leaving RBS to sign over what looks like the Terms and Conditions.

[dx100uk]

it does not say this is a credit agreement

it just says 'credit agreement regulated by the consumer credit act 1974'

 

it is a copy of the standard shop application form, which will have text in the bottom right hand side box to the effect of 'i apply for a RBS credit card account etc etc.' ......by signing in this i agree be bound by the terms & conditions etc etc.

now if it IS a correctly received credit agreement is another matter, and it might be all there is to 'bind' the customer to a credit agreement.

 

but never the less it is an application form.

 

dx100uk:rolleyes:

[PriorityOne]

it does not say this is a credit agreement

it just says 'credit agreement regulated by the consumer credit act 1974'

 

 

dx100uk:rolleyes:

 

Same thing. Read the small print just above the signature.... "This is a Credit Agreement regulated by...... "

 

As advised, I would query the single signature... there should be two.

[dx100uk]

eh this is fun

can i have a magnifying glass!

it does too, so how as you've two have spotted is it not signed on their side.

we used to have to sign them with the customer who took on the credit and got a number back [like the one top right] .

 

some of the forms had to be posted off then went back to the customer again, looks like its not completed it journey

dx100uk

[PriorityOne]

eh this is fun

can i have a magnifying glass!

it does too, so how as you've two have spotted is it not signed on their side.

we used to have to sign them with the customer who took on the credit and got a number back [like the one top right] .

 

some of the forms had to be posted off then went back to the customer again, looks like its not completed it journey

dx100uk

 

 

However, there is a signature scrawled across some of the small print. Can someone confirm please ?....

[johnny4]

It does say " This is a credit agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Sign it only if you wish to be bound by its terms.

 

This is just above where it says "Signature of Principal Cardholder"

 

So I would say yes it is an agreement as well as an application, however I don't know why it doesn't have a seperate box for them to sign. Maybe the stamp is acceptable. I think RBS are pretty careful about this and wouldn't have risked thousands of invalid agreements for the sake of changing a form.

 

I might be wrong though.

 

Johnny

[dx100uk]

bearing in mind this is 10yrs ago i am trying to remember the process we used to have to go through.

 

i think that this form was a duplicate ie the white/pink/green things.

the customer kept one, we posted one, and i cant remember on the third [kept by shop?]. then we got back a list of the numbers of agreements we had 'sold' at the end of the month & we checked them off against our kept copies then destroyed them.

 

 

dx100uk:cool:

 

it gave the customer 'X' product but the card followed later.

 

and yes i think it is a signiture or at least a square stamp? would be interested on a closer scan ?

[Seahorse]

Did they send you any T&C's with it?

[davefirewalker]

It seems to me that it IS an agreement it has the apr, your right to cancel, your sig, their sig (albeit on top of the t&c ) ref to CCA 1974........seems to have it all.

 

looks like your screwed

 

 

Dave

[diskmandave]

Did they send you any T&C's with it?

 

NO! However... I've had a reply today from Tameside Council Trading Standards stating that, "Mint have complied with the Consumer Credit Act by sending a copy of your application form, which is also a credit agreement."

 

I sent TS what Mint (RBS Advanta) sent me, which was just a copy of the original application. The reply from Tameside TS is hand written.

 

No terms & conditions!

 

I'll scan & post in a bit!

 

Regards, Dave.

[gizmo111]

I think a judge would consider this to be an agreement.

[diskmandave]

I think a judge would consider this to be an agreement.

 

TS have deemed this an agreement, regardless the fact that NO T&C's were sent with it, neither original or present!

 

Regards, Dave.

[Seahorse]

Hopefully the cavalry are on their way.

 

But as far as I understand it, no T&Cs means no proper agreement. I know it's not easy to make out the wording, but neither does it appear to refer to separate T&C on the form, regardless of whether they were sent or not. So doesn't seem to comply with your request for your original agreement, as it would seem to be incomplete.

 

Obviously, you don't need T&Cs then, as it must somewhere state on the form that you agree to be bound by whatever the runes say on any particular day.

[zubo]

Where are the prescribed terms?

Absent so unenforceable agreement.

I assume the bottom RHS are the T&C - maybe, so where are the Cancellation details - you cannot mail them seperately.

 

Which makes me consider this as pre-contractual = its an application form.

 

Return it asking them to comply properly with the requirements of Section 78, and for good measure - its dated 1997 - the card should have been renewed quite a few times in the last 10 years - bet you never even received this pathetic 'agreement' on each of those occasions when you received a new card - send them a default notice under S85 - you should have received a copy of the fully executed agreement EVERY TIME with the renewed card.

 

Z

[Guest Battleaxe]

I think it is precontractual. No T & C's which must accompany properly EXECUTED Agreement.

 

We are remiss in asking for Section 78 CCA, not include the words a true copy of a properly executed agreement, I now ask for this in my SAR requests. It does make difference.

[Mike220359]

I can't quite make out the small print in the bottom right hand corner, does it contain the APR or refer to a point in the T & Cs? If so then it would probably be an executed agreement. However, if the referred point is a small chart listing a number of different rates, depending upon your credit score this does not comply with what is required.

 

I cannot see a credit limit or a reference to it, provided there is a reference to it in the T & Cs this may be acceptable. Remeber when it comes to the Credit Limit, they don't have to give and exact figure, they can just insert a statement along the lines of 'you will be notified of your credit limit'. I know that this is rather paradoxical when you consider how the APR has to be an exect figure.

 

I know one or two have said that it is just an application form, but the format of these are covered by the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983

 

Mike

[progenic7]

My RBS CC application/agreement is identical to this, RBS didnt sign it as such they just rubber stamped it.

The only interesting point i noticed about my own agreement is that i forgot to date it when i made the application. Whether this means i have the right to claim loads of money back i doubt it personally.

On the reverse of my application/agreement there is a full page of terms and conditions to abide by.

 

I honestly cannot see how there is much wrong with this type of agreement, at the end of the day whether its a rubber stamp or a pretty little box to sign in, people are trying to split hairs here.

Me personally i think your totally wasting your time, a judge will clearly see that this type of agreement is perfectly lawful.

[Mike220359]

My RBS CC application/agreement is identical to this, RBS didnt sign it as such they just rubber stamped it.

The only interesting point i noticed about my own agreement is that i forgot to date it when i made the application. Whether this means i have the right to claim loads of money back i doubt it personally.

On the reverse of my application/agreement there is a full page of terms and conditions to abide by.

 

I honestly cannot see how there is much wrong with this type of agreement, at the end of the day whether its a rubber stamp or a pretty little box to sign in, people are trying to split hairs here.

Me personally i think your totally wasting your time, a judge will clearly see that this type of agreement is perfectly lawful.

 

It may be splitting hairs, but the law is straight down the line, no variation at all.

 

You say that the RBS merely rubber stamped your application, by inference there is no signature. Well I'm afraid that does not conform to what is required under the act. Both the 1974 act and the 1983 statutory instruments state that to be truly executed it must be signed by both parts, the only variation of the use of a signature is the company seal.

 

I know that we can all discuss what a signature is, well it is pretty succicnt under law, however, by extension the stamp may be a facsimile of a signature, but if it (in this case) merely says 'RBS' and the date thats not good enough.

 

Mike

[Guest The Terminator]

This is not a properly executed agreement and what give's it away is that a rubber stamp do's not constitute a signiture.If you read the CCA it specifically says it must be signed not rubber stamped so that could be the basis of your arguement.

 

61 Signing of agreement

(1) A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless—

(a) a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner, and

(b) the document embodies all the terms of the agreement, other than implied terms, and

© the document is, when presented or sent to the debtor or hirer for signature, in such a state that all its terms are readily legible.

[zubo]

I can't quite make out the small print in the bottom right hand corner, does it contain the APR or refer to a point in the T & Cs? If so then it would probably be an executed agreement. However, if the referred point is a small chart listing a number of different rates, depending upon your credit score this does not comply with what is required.

 

I cannot see a credit limit or a reference to it, provided there is a reference to it in the T & Cs this may be acceptable. Remeber when it comes to the Credit Limit, they don't have to give and exact figure, they can just insert a statement along the lines of 'you will be notified of your credit limit'. I know that this is rather paradoxical when you consider how the APR has to be an exect figure.

 

I know one or two have said that it is just an application form, but the format of these are covered by the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983

 

Mike

 

Mike I know I disagree with you for one thing because of the single signature, which is partly my argument re pre-contractual application. However even if you are correct - CCA 1974:

61.--(1) A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless--

(a) a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms

and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner, and

(b) the document embodies all the terms of the agreement, other than implied

terms, and

© the document is, when presented or sent to the debtor or hirer for signature,

in such a state that all its terms are readily legible.

 

Whichever - it is NOT an agreement OR it is but it is unenforeceable (except by a court? - but there is contra evidence from OFT re that) and would you take it to Court if you were the Creditor and risk a precedence for all others if you lost??? I think not.

 

Z

[Mike220359]

Sorry Term and Zubo it is indeed signed by RBS, just below the RBS Advanta stamp there is a signature partially obscurring the small print, that really is enough, the 1983 regs, do not stae where the signature should be but that it should be outside the customer's signature box.

[Guest The Terminator]

Sorry Term and Zubo it is indeed signed by RBS, just below the RBS Advanta stamp there is a signature partially obscurring the small print, that really is enough, the 1983 regs, do not stae where the signature should be but that it should be outside the customer's signature box.

 

I see what your saying Mike but I have my doubts that this would stand up in court.This face it anyone can rubber stamp an agreement and sign it but where the stamp is it is obscuring the terms which may well make it inilligable.

[joneshousehold]

I am concerned about some of the early comments made on this thread. An agreement is a specific document. Just because the credit industry wants to speed up it's processes by turning a single document into an application and an agreement does not make the former an agreement as well. Just because it states this is an agreement does not make it one either. I think there is something in S59 about pre-contract documents not being valid as an agreement.

59 Agreement to enter future agreement void

(1) An agreement is void if, and to the extent that, it purports to bind a person to enter as debtor or hirer into a prospective regulated agreement.

(2) Regulations may exclude from the operation of subsection (1) agreements such as are described in the regulations.

I don't know if there are any later regulations that over-rides (1), perhaps some more learned member can clarify for us.

 

Many of the creditors I have challenged on this have yet to produce any useful regulation so I suspect not.

 

If they were however to successfully challenge I still don't think from the cursory look I have given that the document, if it were to be accepted as an agreement, is within the strict rules of CCA and later regulations. The OFT documents that sets out the regulations is a useful place to start

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/business_leaflets/consumer_credit/oft018.pdf

I think they may have failed on the form and content of the document as described in the guidance. It is difficult to read on the posting so I am not sure. If the copy held is as unclear as this I would also throw in a challenge on the grounds that every copy must be easily legible just for good measure.