Hi, A good friend of mine has asked me to post his experience on the forum and ask for advice. Almost 3 years ago, he had attended a Saturday morning class at his local College, Plymouth College of Art. On returning to the college car park, he found the barrier was down and he couldn't get his car out. He walked around the area looking for someone from the college to open it up for him, but no-one was there.As he had a long drive home and didn't want his car stuck there till Monday morning, he decided to see if he could lift the barrier himself and managed to do so.

A few weeks later he was arrested and charged with criminal damage, for which he accepted a caution.He asked for the CCTV cameras to be looked at because they would show that he had not used excessive force and had tried to find assistance,but it was claimed that the footage was lost or wiped. He was adamant that he had not done any serious damage to the barrier and he should know because he had previously worked as a service enginneer for car park barriers.

Some months later he received a demand from solicitors acting for the college, (Lyons Davidson) for almost £4000 and claiming he had wrecked the barrier which had to be completely replaced. There were other claims made also to the effect that notices were provided giving instructions as to what to do in the event of getting locked in. I actually went with him to take photographs of the entire car park and there were absolutely no such notices. It was obvious though that a flashy new barrier had been installed to replace the old, rusty one.

He wrote back demanding proof of the damage caused and a breakdown of costs, but nothing was forthcoming and everything went quiet until this week, almost 3 years later.

Now he's had a new demand for payment with threats of court action etc.

Can anyone throw any light on what his rights are in this situation please?

He's certain a new barrier wasn't necessary and the college were definitely lying about the circumstances. Also does anyone know when such a claim becomes statute barred?

Any advice would be very welcome.

A couple of things,you state that he accepted a caution,if he was not guilty of anything then he should not have accepted it.

Secondly he should have made a subject access request for the CCTV images under the data protection act.

The request to provide the information regarding damages etc was a reasonable one.

Pre action Court protocols demand that you be given information to enable you to properly defend any court action.

My guess is that this debt/alleged debt has been sold on.

Can you say who are the DCAs /Solicitors involved ?

Finally have you kept a log of actions and copies of letters sent asking for info ?

Thanks Martin, Yes I thought it was a pity he accepted a caution too. It didn't seem right to me either, but he said he was overwhelmed by the whole thing and it seemed like the easy way out, at the time. Now he regrets it for sure, especially having his DNA taken.

The solicitors are Lyons Davidson.

Yes he has kept a proper log and copies of correspondence.

Thanks again for your help.

ok no problems.I have a letter which will assist-will let you have a copy once things are a bit more clearer-but needs to be sent out ASAP.

Hi again,

The solicitors are Lyons Davidson.Thanks very much for your help and for the offer of the letter, Martin. It's much appreciated. If there's any more detail you want, just let me know. My friend is in a bit of a tizwoz about it all and I didn't really know what to advise him.

All the best, Patma

That letter would be much appreciated, Martin if poss.

Bump

Advice or a letter suggestion would be much appreciated. Thanks, Patma

Patma - trying sending Martin a PM or email - he may not be picking up that you need his help.

Thanks for that, Tiglet, will do.

Pm landed-will sort something for you when I have finished what I am on now.

Thanks Martin, much appreciated

Time ran out to send a reply so I suggested my friend more or less reiterate his previous letter which kept them quiet for 2 years or so. Basically he pointed out numerous inaccuracies in their letter and asked for proof of the damage they claim was done and a proper breakdown of costs.

We now await their response.

Hi there,

Over the years i have had my fingers in many pies. The thing i'm on with now is electronic security (including access control, i.e barriers)

Legally i don't know where you stand, but i can tell you that £4000 is very excessive. I pay £800 for at the most for barriers (top end at that), at worst all you're friend did and would be physically cable of would be bending or breaking the boom. Possibly loosening the case fixing bolts.

I charge less than £4000 for a complete new install, i.e new motor, gearbox, casing, boom, warning lights, saftey photocells, saftey induction loops, intercom, access control, 10 rf phobs, rf reciver card, tilt support etc. . all installed and supplied and mains power installed and certificated. All from scratch.

A 8 meter boom (largest on most standard barriers - 2 4 meter booms bolted together) costs at trade £100 + vat - Call-out is £295.00 + vat

I'd tell them to shove the £4000

I suggest you friend phones a few companies (not telling them the story) and asked for a quote for a vandilised barrier - I gaurantee every company will give you a call-out price and a cost for boom without needing a site survey (remember - they will mark up boom so it will be more than £100)

I am no expert but i assume if it goes to court, the judge wont look kindly on this company having there whole system upgraded due to your friends unfortunate situation, especially as he has been more than co-operative.

Just my 2p

Good look

Chris

Agreed - this smacks of betterment. They found someone stupid enough to accept the accusation of criminal damage and went to town. This would have more properly dealt with through the council's insurers, who would then look to him for repayment of repairs but NOT replacement.

Because it is a public body, he can make a Freedom Of Information Act request, requiring sll details of the use and costs of this barrier and the actual costs of its installation and replacement.

Thankyou Chris and Buzby for your thoughts.I really appreciate them. I'll pass on all the info and suggestions. I think you're both right about the overcharging. We were thinking that too, but it's really encouraging to get confirmation and some solid facts to back them up.

The Freedom of Information request is brilliant idea too. Will keep you posted. Thanks again for responding, Patma

Well, I have an update. After hearing nothing all this time, a court summons has arrived today.

As soon as I can get sight of it, I will post the details.

All advice/suggestions very gratefully received. My friend hasn't a clue how to defend a court summons and neither have I, apart from reading about other people's experiences on the CAG forums.

Do make sure it has the court stamp - otherwise it is fake. How did you get on with the FoI request? If you didn;t get a response, nows the time to pursue it, as you'll need this for any defence.

Thankyou Buzby for responding. We had hoped this matter had gone away again when the last letter was ignored, so it was a bit of a shock when the court papers arrived.I'll be checking the documents carefully for the court stamp when I get to see them today and I'll post more details asap. Nothing forthcoming as far as FOI request, so I agree it's time to pursue that more vigorously.

The date of the actual incident was 3 years ago exactly(4th March). I'm curious as to whether there is a three year deadline in cases like this. Does anyone have any idea about that?

If they are pursuing you for money, then they have 6 years from the date the costs were incurred. If they're pursuing you (or your insurer) for the damage to the barrier with no cost of restitution, then I would think they'd be well out of time - but I'm not up to speed on English Law.

As a side issue, you could pass this on to your car insurers (at the time) but they may obkect if you hadn't forewarned them of this.

Thanks again for your input Buzby. The summons definitely seems genuine now that I've had a good look at it.

I'm desperately trying to find out what the procedure is to fight this now.

First of all, the summons has come from Bristol and our nearest court would be Plymouth, so can anyone tell me whether it's possible to get it moved and if so at what stage that needs to be done?

On the acknowledgement of service part of the paperwork there's a box to tick to say whether you dispute the jurisdiction of the court, so I was wondering if that should be ticked or not.

Also how much detail does my friend need to go into about his defence on this initial form.

The particulars of the claim as given by the claimants are very inaccurate and contain a lot of false statements. So does he need to challenge them at this stage?

We really need some advice please from those of you who have experience of courts.

I will gladly post any parts of the summons that would help in giving advice btw

The statements of Claim may well be inaccurate, but the time to challenge this is when the case calls as you'll be rejecting their claim anyway. As for the court procedures with such a claim, I only have experience of the Scottish system, so other CAG members might be better placed than I to advise you on this.

Just for my input, I am not sure if I am missing something here. Are you intending to defend the entire claim, or merely question the value of the claim? As I would have thought a defence to the entire claim would automatically fail, as the person in question has admitted to the criminal offence where the requirement for evidence is much more stringent.

In other words, to my mind as the person has accepted an offence of criminal damage, there is no question to be answered in court that this person is liable for the costs as a result of the criminal damage - there is only a question of the value of these costs.

Thanks for that, Mr Shed. My friends thinking so far is that he is willing to pay the reasonable cost of any damage he may have done, but that the college has failed to provide any proof or information as to what damage he allegedly caused.

Last year he re-visited the police station where he was cautioned and discovered that the police had taken the word of Plymouth College of Art and had seen no evidence of damage themselves. He also spoke to a solicitor and it was suggested he may possibly have a case for getting the caution set aside.

I guess this complicates everything even more, but for now it may be best to take it a step at a time and deal with the current court summons. Plymouth College of Art and their insurers, Royal and Sun Alliance have failed to respond to three written requests for information and proof of what they are claiming. He also wrote to the company who were named as having done the work, Universal Security UK Limited and they ignored his request for a breakdown of what was done and why.

I don't know whether this thread is in the right place now that court action is happening, so could a mod or someone who knows please give me some input on whether I need to start a new thread and/or get this moved.