orange- wrong contract length

[lolly371]

hello can anybody help? a year ago my oh phoned orange to arrange our annual upgrade. he enquired about the free broadband offer and was informed that his package wasn't high enough to qualify and they reccommended increasing the package, which would take it to an 18 month contract. we have both got our phones on the same bill and so he increased my talk plan slightly so i had more minutes. he phoned up today to upgrade my phone(as another year has now passed) only to be informed that they were both 18 month contracts. the guy on the phone told him that it is a bit of a grey area, as we should have been informed that mine had increased, too, but basically it seems to be our word against theirs. is there anything we can do to prove it?

[buzby]

Orange are usually good at sending contract holders full details of their offer/contract they've been transferred to so I'd be surprised if the jump from 12 to 18 had not been noted in the small print. It may seem a bit sneaky, but with the industry doing all it can to keep customers, this additional 6 months is now the industry 'standard', and others are pushing for 2 years! You can either chalk it up to experience, or ask them to provide proof that you agreed to the contract term extension.

[lolly371]

we didnt receive any contract. we have been with orange for six years and apart from the very first handsets we received we have never been given a contract. every year we have upgraded, we have changed packages on a few occasions and, nothing. i didn't even know we were supposed to receive a contract. can we use this as an argument?

[buzby]

Possibly - however they (under new owners France Telecom) may have taken the sloppy approach of treating upgrades as a contract 'extension' rather than a replacement. Another possibility is that there is a completely new contract, your use of the phone and payment signifies acceptance, but to see what the T&Cs are you have to view the current revision of it, which will be somewhere on their website.

[lolly371]

thanks for that. i will have a look into it.

[OrangePrimate]

Hi Lolly371

 

In response to Buzby, we dont take the 'sloppy' approach in doing contract extensions! although i cant figure out what the difference would be or why it would be sloppy!! The contracts are renewed, starting from the date the upgrade is ordered.

 

It states on the delivery note that comes with the upgrade phone that you are entering into a new contract term, giving the opportunity to cancel within 7 days under distance selling regs.

 

The length of the contract is (depending on the tariff) usually printed on the monthly bill i.e Dolphin25 (18mnth extended) some of the older tariffs dont have this printed though. Since Jan 06 all upgrades with 'beneficial' package changes are on a 18mnth contracts.

The problem is that the account will have been noted with the pertinant details of the upgrade and subject to the tariff, set to the minimum term, that will 'prove' it from Orange's point of view, can you prove it was for only 12 months?!

[buzby]

Thanks for highlighting the issue from Orange's perspective but here's a punter's view of why it is 'sloppy'.

 

When entering into a contract, the customer is advised the minimum term and (usually) signs a copy, receiving a copy of it at the time or later by post.

 

Subsequently, no other formal document is provided after an upgrade is supplied, no contract with the latest T&Cs and revised minimum term expiry date, this leaves the customer disadvantaged as there is no clear indication of what the changes have been in the T&Cs since the last contract was provided or when the contract can be terminated without penalty.

 

I hold the opinion this is detrimental to the customer and the network, and its adoption is sloppy administration at best, and deceitful trading at worst. If you think otherwise (that the consumer really has no need to be formally advised of these important matters), I'd love to know your reasoning.

[lolly371]

i probably would struggle to prove it, but i think it is very lame that it has been carried out so sneakily. the guy specifically told my oh that his phone contract would be extended, but not a word was said about mine, and they were both dealt with in the same conversation. you surely must agree that this is a very crafty way of keeping me on. as i said before, we have been with orange now for 6 years. if that doesn't make us loyal customers, i dont know what does. they have now shot themselves in the foot as when my contract finally is up, i shall look elsewhere. i dont like dirty tactics and feel disgusted by oranges attempt to keep us as customers, and you cannot argue that it isnt sneaky, as if they thought their treatment was fair, they would be clear about what they were doing. what is even worse is that the conversation arose because we were getting a bit tired of oranges disregard of our loyalty, the service was very poor, and they offered us all kinds of amazing promises to keep our custom- promises that we ended up fighting for for the next three months.

[lolly371]

dead right, buzby.

[OrangePrimate]

to answer both of you:

Lolly, you use words like sneaky, crafty and dirty tactics. These were not in your first post and have appeared since accusations of 'sloppy administration' detriments to customers ect from Buzby. Now, i was not party to the conversation you had a year ago, but i do know we do not have to use any of the above tactics, whenever we do upgrades there is the basic minimum information we have to give, the contract length is one of them. we are constantly monitored on our calls and it is not worth our jobs to be sneaky, crafty or use dirty tactics! we earn our day's pay whether you agree to a further contract or not. in your last post you say that you had issue's with the your past loyalty and all kinds of promises were made, i can only guess that, as suggested in my first post, there was some pretty good deal/package offered when you upgraded and these are subject to 18mnth contracts. Also when a couple have 2 or more phones on an account, even better packages are available when both upgrade at the sme time with the dates running alongside each other. they have no need to tie you in for another 6 mnths needlessly!

 

I am sorry you feel aggrieved by this and would consider leaving after so long over something like this that is far removed from the 'conspiracy theory' that Buzby suggests has happened!

 

Buzby:

When upgrading via the phone, as with all the Networks, the customer is advised when arranging the upgrade the main details of the new contract, dates of change, delivery of new handset, the basics of the new package etc. They are advised to visit the Orange website to view full T&C's or if no access, to an Orange dealer to pick up the latest Orange book that has all the relevant plans details and T&C's. If requested we will send a text to the customer with the contract start date, length, phone and plan.

It is impossible to go over every detail in that conversation, it would take to long and customerscomplain at being kept waiting for more than a few munites, that would expend the call queues even further.

The good old days of sending out bits of paper that would get lost or filed in the bin ect have gone, it saves a few trees!

This does not mean that Orange, or any network are up to the 'deceitful trading' as in your opinion stated above. it is very easy to see the sloppy, the shoddy, the decietful, the fraudulent, etc, etc all around when in the 'conspiracy theory' mindset.

I prefer to see it as, a year has past, aspects of that converstion could have been forgotten, have had a good deal, was hoping for a new phone today, cant get one yet have to wait another few months.

No Dirty trading there!

[lolly371]

orange primate, i take offence by your response to my reply. you imply that i have no mind of my own and was influenced by a few short sentences from another poster. having had appalling service from orange, recently, we have taken to logging the content of telephone conversations, so that we can remember clearly what has been said, if we need to, so please don't make assumptions that i have simply forgotten what has been promised to me.

[OrangePrimate]

Sorry you have taken offence to my input, no offence was meant, only an alternate view point and how hundreds of upgrades are dealt with on a daily basis.

There really isnt any advice that can be given on this subject, i have told you how it is done, I dont know what package you are on to confirm anything, i have asked, do you have anything to say it was a 12mnth contract? have you checked your bills to see if it says on there 12 or 18mnth.

The subscribed mail recieved is a little different to the post above. I am not at work now, and my views and feelings are my own, and do not deserve a tirade as was in that mail. but i shall make no further comment as it will obviously be classed as bad customer service and not want you want to hear!

[lolly371]

i apologise for the post- i realised once i sent it it was too harsh, which is why i edited it as i didnt want to create an explosive situation. i am just really annoyed by the treatment i have received by orange, and when you stepped in as a representative of orange it all came in your direction. i do feel that i am constantly fighting to receive what orange have promised and was just ranting in my second post, and hadnt expected to be pulled up for it. i have checked my bill and my oh is on web plan 300mins +500 texts and i am on web 100 mins+ 100 text EP. i dont understand what that means, but that is all it says. when my oh arranged the upgrade, he said he wanted to take advantage of the free broadband offer, and they said that it would mean changing his account to 18 months. he said that was fine. then he went on to organise my account, and said he wanted to reduce my talk plan as i didnt use all the minutes. at that point i would have thought he would have been advised of any changes in length, but was just told 'thats fine'. we then had to keep chasing up handsets, which finally arrived 3 months later, and we continued to be charged for the broadband and finally got a refund after continually phoning up and constantly being informed that the system was down. it seems a constant battle with orange, hence the earlier rant(really not personal), and moan to you.

[buzby]

It is impossible to go over every detail in that conversation, it would take to long and customers complain at being kept waiting for more than a few minutes, that would expend the call queues even further.!

 

I couldn't agree more - but the courtesy of sending a written confirmation of the contract entered into would prevent all the ill will generated from folk who can't remember what happened last month in a phone call - never mind something so complex as an airtime agreement 8 months down the line.

 

This is not an issue for CS staff, it is a back-office function simply confirming what has been agreed and giving the customer an opportunity to be confident in what they have agreed to. It's not hard to do, and will prevent (or at least reduce) the amount of utter helplessness customers feel when their queries are stonewalled and their credit records get savaged. That's not too much to ask surely?

[complete]

As dealers we are supposed to send a welcome pack with Upgrades and new connections, detailing tariff name agreed, contract length, inclusive allowances, out of allowance charges, distance selling regs, warranty info, contact details, opening hours, customer services numbers etc.

 

I send this out with the phone, and wait up to 48 hours for a call from the customer from receipt of the phone, to say they are happy to go ahead with everything, before the agreement is processed.

 

Why do the networks feel they are exempt from there own requirements, but independant retailers have strict controls.

 

To be honest though, i would do this anyway, even if it was not a requirement.

[buzby]

I had thought as much - I've never had a problem like this with an independent dealership, who normally go out their way to ensure everything is explained. Clearly this isn't done via CS sales and certain chain stores - but it really should be.

[lolly371]

i guess there is a lesson to be learned there. stick with the independant dealerships and you will be kept in the picture.

[OrangePrimate]

This issue is as frustrating for frontline staff as it is for the customers!! the person on the end of the phone a year or a few months down the line is never the person who made the initial agreements so gets the earfull! I completely agree with complete (and this, like all other posts is my personal opinion, i may work for the company but i dont speak for them!) sending out the details of a contract change on an upgrade would save a world of hurt! I think the networks dont do this as a cost cutting exercise so that good line rental deals and continuing to subsidise the phones is preferable to most customers.

(and as for independant dealers having to comply with strict controls, that is now needed because of the really bad ones that were about a few years ago that led to it being a neccesity, the genuine good dealer now has to do this because of the previous bad apples, thankfully the good ones, like Complete, consider this as a good thing anway)

I, and alot of my collegues offer to send a text to the customer confirming what has been put through for them and i wish that the company would make that a 'normal practice' across the board, at least then there is something to refer too as the details of the message can be stored.

 

Lolly371, hello again!

with regards to your posts, you seem to have been dragged through the mill lately with Orange and i'm not surprised you have lost faith in the service you have been getting. again, i am sorry if any of my post caused you any offence. I was not speaking on behalf of Orange or acting as a reperesentive of the company here, i was trying to broaden the understanding of how the upgrades ect are done and what influences the contract lengths.

The plan you have been on is the web 100 mins/100 texts EP. The EP is for 'Extended Plan' (as briefly referred to in post #6, but i only called it extended) the problem is that those plans are no longer available so we cant check with the website to check the T&C's for them now. I will try to find the archived details of those plans and feedback for you.

The other issue is, the new contracts wouldnt have started untill you actually took delivery of the phones. so possibly starting the new contract 3 months later than you expected due to the delay in supplying the phones. when in contact recently did they give you the end date of the contract or the date you could upgrade i.e in a further 3 mnths time or did they specifically say it was an 18mnth term? because that could have a bearing on the situation.

[lolly371]

This issue is as frustrating for frontline staff as it is for the customers!!

i appreciate that, which is why if you look at my posts, the majority of my rantings were based on orange as a company, rather than any individuals.as i say my arguments really were not personal.

when in contact recently did they give you the end date of the contract or the date you could upgrade i.e in a further 3 mnths time or did they specifically say it was an 18mnth term? because that could have a bearing on the situation.

they told my oh that it was an 18 month contract.

[OrangePrimate]

take the paragraph as a whole:

"This issue is as frustrating for frontline staff as it is for the customers!! the person on the end of the phone a year or a few months down the line is never the person who made the initial agreements so gets the earfull! I completely agree with complete (and this, like all other posts is my personal opinion, i may work for the company but i dont speak for them!) sending out the details of a contract change on an upgrade would save a world of hurt!"

it wasnt taken personally and was in agreement with both yourself and Complete.

We also rant about the Company at times!! (not going to admit how many though!)

also still looking for the old t&c's, will feedback as soon as found something.

[lolly371]

im sorry, i dont think i worded that very well. i understood what you were saying, which is why i explained that that it wasnt directed personally. i know that employees cannot control the way an organisation is run, and i can understand your frustration. i perhaps had better shut up now, as i seem to keep making matters worse. i honestly didnt ask the question to start a row, i was simply looking for answers, and sometimes the keyboard doesnt quite express things the way i want to.