Bill Of Sales and repossession of goods - NOTE: much of this is now out of date - dx 2016

[cctv engineer]

Negative On That

 

I Have That Confirmed From The Oft

 

At The End Of The Day A Credit Agreement Was Signed Be It Secured By A Bos Or Not But If The Credit Agreement Is Crap, So Is The Bos

 

 

tuesday i won in court the bill of sale also credit agreement.

 

if the bill of sale is fauls so is the credit agreement.

[postggj]

Ok Please Explain Bos Being A Credit Agreement

 

If Details Of The Credit Agreement Are Not On The Bos, Then The Bos Is Void But How Is A Bos A Credit Agreement In Its Own Right

[postggj]

By The Way

 

My Own Opinion Is As The Two Are Linked Then If One Is Foul, Both Are But Ime Only Going On Info From The Oft

[applecart]

Hi All

 

Had a quick read through.....

 

I have contended on the forum that an agreement that was party to a bill of sale is flawed once the bill of sale is found to be unenforceable - I think we agree on this point.

 

I have posted that the BOS Act 1882 at s.7a states that before a lender can seize the car - he must follow through the requirement of the CCA 1974 and meet the requirements of s.87 - which refers to the requirements of a valid default notice being served - if this is not done correctly; the lender cannot enforce the agreement or the Bill of sale - in other words; he cannot take the car - not even from a third party!!!!

 

It is only in instances where the lender has a bill of sale without a CCA that the lender can ignore section 7a of the bos Act 1882 for cases where the debtor has not paid sums due under the bill of sale.

 

I am not aware of any instant where lbl proffer a cca without a bill of sale.

 

In finding the legislation required to secure a 'return of vehicle order' - I would secure proof that the lender has not complied in one of many ways with the various acts mentioned and seek the order from there.

 

I'm unaware of any specific legislation for third party issues - you simply have to build your case from the known legislation.

 

The OFT have 'determined to revoke' lbl licence - this means they have revoked it; lbl trade on 'appeal' basis only and are no doubt determined to appeal and appeal because it provides a 'loophole' for them to continue trading..... (this should surprise non of us - we know them to be masters at finding 'loopholes' in their determination to abuse the law)

 

Regards signed agreements - if the agreement is flawed and was signed before April 2007 - then s 127 CCA 1974 is more than apt to assist.

 

Like I say; build your case from known legislation : )

 

Apple

[postggj]

MANY THANKS APPLE

 

I have contended on the forum that an agreement that was party to a bill of sale is flawed once the bill of sale is found to be unenforceable - I think we agree on this point.

 

I TOTALLY AGREE WITH THAT STATEMENT BUT WHERE IN LEGISLATION DOES IT STATE THAT

[applecart]

may I also comment that.... when you have linked transactions - this in my mind is not the same thing as a bill of sale as linked to a cca.....

 

linked transactions it would seem to me are those where say you take out a loan then take another and or other loans from the same lender, and is supplemental in any way to the original loan.

 

you can of course be engaged in linked transactions with lbl - but i do not beleive that the bos is linked to any more than the original loan.

 

so, therefore it would only be the original loan that the bos affects,... all others although linked.... would or should not cause you to loose your car if you fall behind on payments - they are the 'unsecured' element of the 'linked' transaction/s.

 

On the subject of seeking declarations that a bill of sale or a cca are unenforceable - its always best to stack up as many flaws as you can - dont rely purely on it being registered out of time or where it is a cca - dont rely merely on the fact that they did not send a 'true' copy of the cca (recent case law provides that this is no longer necessary)

[applecart]

Hi Post ggj

 

sorry, I thought id explained....

 

I know of no 'specific' legislation....my thoughts are that... if you take the fact that the bos 1882 act s.7a; says; they cannot take action to enforce the bill without following the requirements of the cca 1974 s.87...... this section says they cannot enforce the agreement unless the default notice is valid and meets the requirements of cca 1974 s.88

 

The Law is....if the lender has served a defective default notice then it stands that the lenders only recourse is via the court - the court must grant the lender an 'order' before the lender can enforce the terms of the cca or the bill of sale in such an instance.

 

It has already been stated; that where the 'third party' is the first purchaser of a car that is/was subject to a bill of sale - they are protected by the Hire Purchase Act 1987 (i think its 1987, I havent checked-sorry; could be 1967 but others will clarify).

 

As I understand it the first purchaser derives the 'ownership' of the vehicle over and above the original owner of the vehicle - the bill of sale only affords 'title' and the 'title' is conditional NOT absolute! this means that if the lender wishes to seize the vehicle he has to first get an order from the court (if he has not served notices correctly he will not be granted an order and is unlikely to be in a legal position to seize any such vehicle - add to this-that the lender would have to challenge the new legal owner of the vehicle!!!)

 

This all culminates to the fact that where the lender has acted to seize a vehicle without an order from the court; be it from the original debtor or a third party - then the lender could be seen to have 'enforced' the agreement and this means he would be in breach of contract and can be sued accordingly.

 

This may not be what you were looking for - but don't loose faith - if there is such specific legislation out there - I'm sure one of us will find it : )

 

Apple

[postggj]

thats great applecart

 

learned somthing new today

[applecart]

If it has helped - then thats good news : )

 

 

Apple

[Sammi1985]

I am waiting for a copy of my BoS from the High Court, If it turns out the BoS is void and not registered can I sell my Car? I do have a Credit Agreement along with the BoS....Thanks

[postggj]

is the agreement

 

a hpi

credit

personal loan

fixed sum loan

[selinajayne]

does anyone know whose signitures need to be on the bill of sale and creit agreement

[Sammi1985]

It's a Credit agreement with the funding corp which has a BoS with it, the Bos figures and credit agreement figures are both different so I am now waiting for a tru copy of the BoS from the High Court, The problem is the car is faulty and has been from 5 months after having it, out of the 30 day warranty and the scrap man is willing to come a collect for a reasonable price, am wanting it moving off my grandma's drive as it's now been there 3 years. Thanks

[postggj]

Funding Crp

Say No More Then

 

What Does It Say On The Agreement About Termination

 

If This Was A Fixed Sum Loan Agreement There Would Be No Problem But The Funding Co Might Have Registered An Interest With The Hpi Register

[applecart]

If you have an invalid bill of sale - you are at liberty to do as you please with you car - irrespective of the credit agreement.

 

In reality - my thoughts are that - even If the Bill of Sale is valid - you can still sell your car - you are the LEGAL owner of it - the lender retains 'title' on condition that he does not breach the agreement - if you breach the agreement whilst the lender has 'title' - then he knows he can only exercise a right to the vehicle after having conformed with the Bos Acts 1878 & 1882 & CCA1974 (I have seen lbl's bos's - I didn't see anywhere where it says 'you cannot sell the vehicle' it only makes reference to 'execution'....they know they cannot restrict you selling the car because you own it NOT them) (selling the car as far as I can interpret their bills of sale is not a breach on your part)(just maintain your payments under the agreement).

 

So lets say - you sell it when there is a valid bill of sale - SO What??? - what are they going to do??? Lets say they say they are coming to seize a car that you have sold on??? SO What???

 

The position is - they no longer have 'security' for the agreement - they could sue you for breach of contract and enforce the agreement - but to do this - they have to go to court....... they won't be asking the court to force you to get the vehicle back so that they have security - far from it...they will be asking the court for the right to enforce the loan - this means; force you to pay the total outstanding balance; so that they get a ccj against you and then seek to follow through from there....

 

But... We All Know... that's not what will happen.....the fact is they will pursue the person you sold it to....which in my mind is illegal - the first purchaser has legal ownership but they do not know this and this is where I think lbl is even more at fault than any lender on the planet!!!! - they know their bos does not stretch to other people or give them the remit to pursue third parties that are not linked to the agreement - yet they persist in this type of activity and it would appear 'successfully' too!!! (so for humanity sake - try not to put innocent people in this position - but we are all human; so I do empathise with those of you who make the decision to sell your vehicles-and sometimes needs must)

 

3 hrs to go before I lose the right to get my vote in : )

 

Apple

[Sammi1985]

Postggi - I will have a look at the credit agreement and see what it says .....applecart as for selling on it will be going on the back of a wagon to the scrap yard!!! It's a heap of junk always has been since the day I got it but TFC have washed their hands of it and are more than happy to keep taking my money!

[Sammi1985]

I have just had a look at the Credit Agreement It says the following....

Credit Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974.....All sums under the agreement will be secured against (make and model of car) by way of Bill of Sale....

 

There is no mention regarding termination as such It just details the early sttlement examples.

[postggj]

Well Then If The Bos Is Crap, You Can Dispose Of The Car As The Car Has No Security Against It

 

But

 

Even With A Bill Of Sale The Agreement Will Have A Voluntry Termination On It

 

Thats The Half Way Figure Through The Agreement

 

Look On The Front Page Of The Agreement

[cctv engineer]

Postggi - I will have a look at the credit agreement and see what it says .....applecart as for selling on it will be going on the back of a wagon to the scrap yard!!! It's a heap of junk always has been since the day I got it but TFC have washed their hands of it and are more than happy to keep taking my money!

 

 

dont scrap the car. scrap yards also have to do a hpi and if it shows lbl will take you to court for everything. theft the lot. do not put yourself in that poistion. they will take your house.

[Sammi1985]

Just had another look at the Credit Agreement and there are no VT figures on there the only section is the following: -

 

EARLY SETTLEMENT - should you wish to settle your account early, the following settlement figures would apply providing all payments had been made on time. These examples take no account of any validation which may occur under the Agreement and the amounts are accordingly only ullustravtive.

 

Based on a loan of £100 1/4 term expired £93.32 1/2 term expired £75.70 3/4 term expired £50.23

 

There is no where on the Credit Agreement of the BoS that states any figures regarding my particular circumstances.

 

I ndid recently received a letter from Red2Black Collections Limited (the funding corp) demanding full payment, to which I requested true copies of BoS never to be provided, which is why I have now gone through to the High Courts directly. I haven't heard any more from them although ?I have continued with the agreed amount which I have been paying for months and months, never missed a payment so don't even know why the letter came, although it did come after having an arguing with someone at TFC regarding the car.

 

Thanks

[postggj]

Well If No Termination Figure (voluntry Termination) Is On The Agreement Then The Agreement Is Unexecuted

 

It Needs To List The 50% Mark

[postggj]

Do You Still Have That Letter From Red2black

[Sammi1985]

I did have the Credit Agreement looked at and everyone seems to think it's Ok as it was made after April 2007.....

[postggj]

Makes No Difference

 

Does It Comply With The Cca, Thats The Question

 

Do You Still Have The Agreement And That Letter From Red2black

[Sammi1985]

Yeah I have every single document they have ever sent, I also have a letter from the OFT asking me to send all the paperwork to them as they are looking into TFC to which I obliged