Office Of Fair Trading Test Case

[Destinyofsouls]

So...

Oft are saying that the charges are unfair for the purposes of the UTCCR of certain terms contained in each banks personal ( so not businesses) current account arrangements providing for charges to be imposed upon customers who seek to make payments for which they do not have available funds.

The banks are going to counterclaim with:;

(1) the terms fall within regulation 6(2) of the regs and do not fall to be assessed for fairness.

(2) If they do fall to be assessed for fairness then the banks must as a precondition be shown to have contravened the requirement of good faith

(3) The charges are for a service not a breach of contract, therefore, not a penalty at law.

[tomterm8]

O.K.

 

 

Once you start a court claim, however long the court claim takes... it doesn't matter, because it's the day the action starts that determins whether the statute of limitations applion.

 

Hence my big text above.

[Bookworm]

Who has given the waiver? The OFT you say.... I've got my head in my hands..

 

Sorry, the FSA.

 

Oh dear, I got one thing wrong.

 

SORRY, EVERYBODY!!!

 

I shall now go and cover my head in ashes and dress in sackckoth.

[taff-p]

what really angers me is people like me have days to wait for a refund of charges and now it could be years... what about the court costs we have paid and also people who scraped the fee for the court costs together and really needed it... £120 for some people is quite alot... i feel for those the most..

 

 

Exactly toffo..weve been on our backsides for a long time and finaly managed to scrape the £250.00. we only had to wait until monday and if barclays had not put a defence in by then we would have won by default..gutted

[brokenbybanks]

The fact that they can still charge us - despite the now ongoing case - and yet we're all stuck in limbo is the thing that worries me the most. It's this un-balanced approach by the financial cartel of the FSA, FOS and the OFT that makes me pessimistic about the eventual ruling.

 

The banks were starting to lose too much money. The courts were getting jammed. Somehow, this pesky consumer revolt had to be pinned down. And yes, JFK was killed by the CIA, The moon landings were filmed in Vegas, and Tony Blair intentionally lied about Iraq...at least two of those are true...;-)

[Destinyofsouls]

The claim they are filing today is:

for a declaration that the relevant terms are not excluded from an assessment for fairness by reason of reg 6(2) (a) or (b)

 

The bank has to provide today

a representative selection of the historic relevant terms and relevant charges of each bank of a kind that is in dispute in the County Court claims.

 

(b) The relevant terms applicable to each banks personal current account currently in force and each banks current relevant charges

© in cases where each relevant terms /chrges are to be replaced supply the replacements

 

Will that not suffice ? surely that's what we were wanting to prove they wwere penalty charges

[peter534]

I have to agree with Wild Bill on some points, although calling people stupid is not one of them.

 

I is rather tedious going through all of the posts and getting to the end with nothing but a sore head.

 

The same points being raised, same questions asked time and time again.

 

Mabe the moderators could start athread that us little people can only read, and not contribute to. That way we would be reading knowledgeable advice and thoughts, instead of 15 pages of public oppinion.

 

Basically somewher you can find out what the hell is going on and what we should do!

 

I would also like to commend bookworm for your babysitting everybody through this frustrating time.

[TideTurner]

If the FSA is to allow the banks to apply for a stay on any claims, surely the must not be allowed to make ANY charges until this matter is sorted out.

 

 

Tide

[PeterAnderson]

destinyofsouls - Eeee that's an interesting usename,

 

Anyway I think you are right. I have carefully read the OFT page on this and they all the way through are talking about the UTCCR. I suggest that no-one in their offices has actually made a claim for charges OR has seen the witness statement on CAG that refers to OTHER legislation in concern to these charges.

 

OK it is a good thing that their test case is to clarify the UTCCR's; and they say they are certain they have a strong case - great.

 

BUT the OFT & CAG both represent the consumer, in the OFT case that is their only role. I think that the legal team on CAG (how on earth we contact them I do not Know - ok they got up a fighting fund of £100k for Kevins case; but this is IMHO is FAR FAR more important as it effects everyone). I am fairly sure the OFT has no idea about the process that we use here to re-claim penalties - why should they?? I think it is time for our legal bod's and theirs to meet - I really do:

 

Many thousands of people will be relying on this !!!

 

EDIT - Oops

I also think there needs to be another template letter regarding 'Directions' - because, just like in the Hull cases in the wake of Birmingham judges may wish to strike out cases, or stay them, the arguments do not match up. The OFT are only talking about UTCCR's and NOT other legislation that business claims rely on (and have been successful)

[Destinyofsouls]

so each bank to serve & file an acknowledgement within 7 days.

Each bank to suply the OFT copies of current T&C's for current accounts by 1/8/07 and any other historical T&C's relating to previous charges.

 

Each bank to serve its counterclaim by 26 OCTOBER 2007

The first CMC to be held on the first available date after service of counterclaims. ( prob 2011)

THEN

Directions only to be sought at this first CMC to dicuss timings for getting togehter evidence. ( prob 3011)

[brokenbybanks]

This whole change in the process is ANNOYING - so let us moan!! It feels like just another hurdle that's been placed on the road to justice - I need to share my frustration...so call me stupid.

[tomterm8]

I have to agree with Wild Bill on some points, although calling people stupid is not one of them.

 

I is rather tedious going through all of the posts and getting to the end with nothing but a sore head.

 

The same points being raised, same questions asked time and time again.

 

Hey... nothing succeeds like no-one knowing what the heck is happening:)

 

People need reassurance, and... um... that's a little repetative in places.

 

The Forum moderators HAVE posted a response thread that's closed... this one is for people to, you know, repeatedly ask the same questions, and raise the same points.

 

P.S, did i mention already, people should stay on timetable, and STILL CLAIM?

 

 

Mabe the moderators could start athread that us little people can only read, and not contribute to. That way we would be reading knowledgeable advice and thoughts, instead of 15 pages of public oppinion.

 

Already been done. At the moment, no-one really knows what's going to happen...

 

 

I would also like to commend bookworm for your babysitting everybody through this frustrating time.

 

Patience of a saint.

[Fezzaboy]

Wo Wo Wo

 

Hi Everyone. I think we are looking at this from the wrong aspect. Yes the annoucements of yesterday and today are extremely imbalanced. The banks have the write to continue charging as they believe is there right but the FSA have slapped us all by not allowing us the right to cliam (in a resonable timescale) which is our right.

 

However, the banks argue that there fees are not a penalty but a service charge, under the supply of goods and services act any fee for a service provided has to be reasonable, if the banks want to take the tact that they provide us with a service should we not legally argue that £35 for a service that costs £2.50 is unreasonable.

 

With this arguement the courts would not be able to grant a stay in any of the cases as this is a different peice of law than is being argued in the test case ??????????

[Stornoway]

so each bank to serve & file an acknowledgement within 7 days.

Each bank to suply the OFT copies of current T&C's for current accounts by 1/8/07 and any other historical T&C's relating to previous charges.

 

Each bank to serve its counterclaim by 26 OCTOBER 2007

The first CMC to be held on the first available date after service of counterclaims. ( prob 2011)

THEN

Directions only to be sought at this first CMC to dicuss timings for getting togehter evidence. ( prob 3011)

 

Halifax are saying that they believe it will take 12 months to resolve.

[Destinyofsouls]

How do you assess ' reasonable' for their service?

The old cow on telly says that when anyone goes into and unauth situation, there has to be credit checks and all sorts done ( yeh right)

and that is where the charge is justified

[noomill060]

peter- a year ago, the vast majority of the knowlegable ones were in the same position as you are. They only aquired what they know, in general by asking the same old questions and going through with claims, gaining a bit of legal experience along they way.

 

In fact a year ago, it was pretty much a case of the blind leading the blind.

 

The answer is to read, read, and keep reading. We are all at different stages of understanding now, so please be patientbut dont be backwards in coming forwards and asking.

 

There are no silly questions, just idiotic answers.

[Stornoway]

Can anyone tell me whether we can continue claims for credit cards ? I have 1 credit card claim at court and 4 with the ombudsman.

Bump....

 

Sorry to ask again but all announcements I have seen so far refer to overdraft charges - anyone know for definite if credit card claims will proceed as normal and be dealt with by the courts / FOS without a stay ?

[Destinyofsouls]

Halifax are saying that they believe it will take 12 months to resolve.

 

 

12 months for a verdict and then another 12 for the appeal. Meanwhile the charges are racking up again

[Destinyofsouls]

Bump....

 

Sorry to ask again but all announcements I have seen so far refer to overdraft charges - anyone know for definite if credit card claims will proceed as normal and be dealt with by the courts / FOS without a stay ?

 

 

As I understand credit cards are not part of this test case, neither are business accounts.

So everybody turn your personal bank account into a business account and then claim

 

So Mine would be Destiny of souls t/a bank slapper

[brokenbybanks]

Apparently CC claims go ahead as per. Don't take my word for it - i'm stupid don't ya know

[Bookworm]

I have to agree with Wild Bill on some points, although calling people stupid is not one of them.

 

I is rather tedious going through all of the posts and getting to the end with nothing but a sore head.

 

The same points being raised, same questions asked time and time again.

 

Mabe the moderators could start athread that us little people can only read, and not contribute to. That way we would be reading knowledgeable advice and thoughts, instead of 15 pages of public oppinion.

 

Basically somewher you can find out what the hell is going on and what we should do!

 

I would also like to commend bookworm for your babysitting everybody through this frustrating time.

 

Aww shucks, 'tis nothing. Just doing the job for which they.... er, don't pay me for *realises why finances not doing as well as thought*

 

Anyway...

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/abbey-bank/107573-oft-test-case-what.html, I think, says it all, or at least, as much as we can hope for at the moment, and it is repeated at the top of each forum.

 

I would ask each and every one of you to post the link to it every time you come across the questions which will be asked over and over again. It is only by spreading the message far and wide that we can calm things down.

 

I feel very sorry for those who are not members of this forum, and have only the media frenzy to go by, and the "the end is nigh" messages of gloom and doom. If you know anyone who is thinking about reclaiming their charges, or talking of giving up, please direct them here.

 

Today's big news is tomorrow's fish and chips wrapper. In a few days, Paris Hilton's latest drink-driving will push the issue further out of the media, and then, we can all regroup and carry on as before. Meanwhile, keep a cool head, keep your wits about you (it's easier for me, I don't have many to start with ).

 

It's not the end of the world, it only feels that way.

[tomterm8]

12 months for a verdict and then another 12 for the appeal. Meanwhile the charges are racking up again

 

I think you'll find that this case is very much fast-tracked. I believe that it will take 6 months for a verdict, 3 each for the two appeals (appeals court, house of lords... ). Plus, extra time for europe.

 

At the moment, I'm laying odds that it will be a full house sitting.

[Fezzaboy]

I think the money generated by such charges and the profits that these institutions make should be more than enough to justify what is reasonable.

 

What I am trying to say is that we have collectivly a great amount of power and rather than be dictated to perhaps we should fight using tactics like the bank.

 

If they can change there minds and tactics so can we !!!!!!!

[Stornoway]

How do you assess ' reasonable' for their service?

The old cow on telly says that when anyone goes into and unauth situation, there has to be credit checks and all sorts done ( yeh right)

and that is where the charge is justified

 

That could well be an insight into their strategy going forward. I wouldnt be surprised if the banks do start completing a LOT of extra work and checks when someone goes over limit so that they can try and justify the £30 charge as part of the trial case.

[finlander]

I knew I had seen it some where on here posted by bankfodder

 

have a click on this

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/17065-application-removal-stay.html

 

maybe worth a try... especially if we add that if the stay is still granted can the bank cheges and intrest on the account in disputed be suspended till after the test case?

 

The judge mat think it's only fair and just