GuidoT Business v Natwest **WON - SETTLED**

[GuidoT]

Rather cheekily sent off SAR and Natwest provided me with statements going back 6 years.

 

Ignoring the fact it is a business account, is there a strategy for obtaining statements over 6 years old?

[hedgey06]

Welcome Guidot!

 

They hold data right back to 1992 - best thing to do is contact Joyce Tudor at Retail Regulatory Risk. They'll argue that they can't go back further than 6 years but that's a blatant fib! Keep at them - although you may have a fight on your hands!

[steven4064]

THere's a sticky from Nattie (I think) that give sthe low down on NatWest's data retention. RBOS don't seem to know that NatWest branch people have access to records from before the take over.

[GuidoT]

Thank you fellow SHs.

 

Yes I see from the sticky that they have records going back to 1992, I did another claim against Natwest and they provided 12 years of statements no problem.

 

What is the best way to contact Joyce Tudor?

 

Do you have contact details for her please?

[hedgey06]

Guidot, try emailing her with something along the lines of:

 

Dear Ms Tudor,

 

I refer to my recent letter requesting full SAR on my file dated xxxxxxx. I note that you only sent statements to me for the past 6 years. However, I have evidence to the contrary that you can retrieve my data to approximately 1992.

 

For your information FULL SUBJECT ACCESS REQUEST under the Data Protection Act (1998) covers ALL data in a relevant filing system for an indeterminable period, not just statute of Limitations Act covering the past 6 years.

I refer to notes I was given from a friend of mine within the RBS group – Notes on NatWest Group PLC Archive. These will advise you how to access all of my file information going back to 1992 which is what I require under full SAR law.

 

INSTRUCTIONS:

Bank Office Master Index, 04, 26, then 45 (you can just do 04, 45). That is the Nat West Archive.

Option 1 gives you 12 options of which one is customer notes/events. You click that option which leads to a screen that says ALL EVENTS and press ENTER. You then have notes on account starting on (whenever you opened the account – but you can only go back to 1992). In case you are unaware you can print the page or go into the note and press Print.

 

If you follow the instructions above that will give you the SAR information you need to access my entire files, which I require full copies of under my data protection act SAR request.

 

I trust the information above will help you obtain the information I am requesting and I look forward to receiving the information in the very near future. I would also be obliged if you could send me confirmation that you will be sending this to me as soon as possible.

[hedgey06]

Awwww.......... Thanks Guidot!!!

 

Not sure what her email addie is.......... but you could always try [email protected] - might work!!!

[steven4064]

Joyce Tudor is at the South Gyle Street address - I don't know what her e-mail is, bit since hedgey suggest e-mailing her, perhaps she has one

[GuidoT]

Given it is a business account and I do not want to wait weeks, I decided to phone our Natwest business manager and they have agreed to provide all the pre 6 year statements for £2.50 each, should be around £200.00 in total.

 

I expect around £3K of charges in that period and I will add the statement charge fee to the claim.

[hedgey06]

Sounds like a good plan Guidot.......... best of luck x

[GuidoT]

Finally got all the statements today, after I harassed them, bit disappointing only around £5K including SI.

 

Will file tomorrow.

 

Anyone got any good suggestions as to which court to file at and which business particulars to use?

 

I have some ideas but would appreciate some more, in particular given the good individuals subscribed to my thread.

[steven4064]

Hi GT

 

I would be inclined to use the 'new' NatWest PoC suitably modified - ie remove all reference to the UTCCR1999. Change 5(1) to something suitable about business account charges or delete, etc. See what that looks like.

 

When was you account opened? I have T&Cs for 2001 for business banking if they are of help. You will also need to replace the personal T&Cs from the PoC with the business ones which I think you can get from the NatWest website.

[hedgey06]

only around £5K including SI.

 

Much better than a kick up the backside Guidot!

 

Also, if you have any pre-six year charges at all, include the following in your PoC:

 

 

5. Limitations

 

a). In so far as any charges relating to the period before xx/xx/xxxx, the Claimant wishes to invoke s.32 (1) (b) of the Limitation Act 1980 in that the Defendant deliberately concealed the true cost of administering the contractual breaches committed by the Claimant and thus essential facts relevant to the Claimant's right of action have been concealed and continue to be concealed by the Defendant.

 

b). Alternatively, the Claimant seeks to rely upon s.32(1)© of the Limitation Act. The Claimant paid the charges in the belief that they reflected the true cost of administering the contractual breaches. The Claimant has now discovered, following revelations relating to a similar organisation, that the true costs are much lower and that the belief held by Claimant was in fact mistaken.

 

Covers you at a later date should Cobbetts attempt to have the pre-six year charges struck out from your claim. x

[GuidoT]

Thanks H.

 

Getting a bit ahead of myself need to send prelim first.

 

Anyway in the meantime these are my POC choices are:

 

1. J2B's

 

2. Photoman's

 

3. Natwest consumer POC amended to reflect a business claim

 

Anyone have any views on which I should plump for (save steven4064).

[BankLover_not]

Hi Guys,

 

Well what an up and down time it has been these last 6 weeks. But stick with it and stick together, I'm confident we'll beat 'em in the end. Having read this link and just about to submit a claim for a business account I am now wondering whether I should or not. I received the business account statements from NatWest a couple of weeks ago going back for the last 6 years as requested. However am I to understand that with business accounts you can actually go back further?? If this is true then I am owed hell of alot more!!!!!!

 

Thanks

 

BankLover_not

[steven4064]

Hi BL_not

 

Whether you can go back beyond 6 years is nothing to do with whether it's a business acount or not. It depends on how you understand the Limitations Act 1980. Section 5 says

5 Time limit for actions founded on simple contract

An action founded on simple contract shall not be brought after the expiration of six years from the date on which the cause of action accrued

- hence the 6 years. However, s32 says

32 Postponement of limitation period in case of fraud, concealment or mistake

(1) Subject to subsections (3) and (4A) below, where in the case of any action for which a period of limitation is prescribed by this Act, either--

(a) the action is based upon the fraud of the defendant; or

(b) any fact relevant to the plaintiff's right of action has been deliberately concealed from him by the defendant;

or

© the action is for relief from the consequences of a mistake;

 

the period of limitation shall not begin to run until the plaintiff has discovered the fraud, concealment or mistake (as the case may be) or could with reasonable diligence have discovered it.

You can argue that you paid the charges by mistake, honestly beleiving that the bank would behave lawfully. It was only recently that you discovered that the charges were in fact unlawful. The 6 years thus begins on the day yousaw the light.

 

NatWest will vigorously defend this (up until actually getting to court that is) and you will have to make a good case in your PoC (but there's loads of stuff on CAG fpr that). Also you still have to get the earlier statments out of NatWest. That isn't usually easy either. But go for it.

[BankLover_not]

Hi Steven,

 

Wow you are pretty knowledgable on this, thank you very much for your reply it has given me a lot to think about.

 

Very Grateful.

 

BankLover_not

[aphrodite]

Hi everyone, although am finding your info helpful for later on in my claim,I'm still stuck in trying to start it, as I have no records except account number and sort code, bank are refusing me my records due to the fact that the company was limited need a template round this problem,hope someone can help.

[steven4064]

THe problem is that the Data Protection Act doesn't apply to company information so you can't use a SAR to get the data.

 

I am not sure, but it may be worth exploring if the bank has a duty to supply information arising from its fiduciary relationsip with you (that is, its position of trust). I haven't got time now, but you might search on the internet and see if you can find anything.

[aphrodite]

thankyou stephen will try internet could you suggest under what heading? have devoted much time already and can't seem to get anywhere, have searched many threads and links on this site too, Ithink there are many others who need this same info, I will keep you posted if I find anything.

[GuidoT]

Try a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request), see my post 1 above, but do not mention that you are claiming the charges back, it worked for me.

 

In addition to or alternatively say you need them for something other than claiming back charges, like a HMRC inspection, you will probably be charged. You can phone them, again that worked for me to obtain all my pre 6 year statement.

 

Read all my thread above to see that methods I used, it took a while to obtain them all, but importantly I got them all in the end.

[steven4064]

I am not sure, but it may be worth exploring if the bank has a duty to supply information arising from its fiduciary relationsip with you (that is, its position of trust).

I've since had a look and I think there may be something. The first thing to note is that there is case law that the bank acts as your fiduciary (they are in a position of trust) with regard to the paying of cheques. There are several cases before DDs came into being. SOs and DDs are the modern equivalent of cheques so it must follow that the fiduciary relationship extends to those modes of payment too.

 

I found this in The Withers Lecture 2003, "The Trustees' duty to provide information to Beneficiaries" by Mr Justice Lightman

As Millett LJ said in Armitage v. Nurse [1998] Ch 241 at 255: "If the beneficiaries have no rights enforceable against the trustees, there are no trusts": i.e. no trusts other than a resulting trust for the settlor. He went on to say that "every beneficiary is entitled to see the trust accounts". This is spelt out by Lindley LJ in Low v. Bouverie [1891] 3 Ch 82 at 99 as an obligation "to give all his cestui que trust" on demand information with respect to the mode in which the trust fund has been dealt with and where it is. The gloss may be added that the beneficiary's right is confined to information which concerns him. If the beneficiary's interest is in capital alone, he may have no interest in the details of the distribution of income. Further the term "beneficiary" may not include the objects of a fiduciary discretionary power. For the view has been expressed that the settlor may confer on or withhold from such objects any accounting or enforcement right: see Underhill & Hayton Law of Trusts 16 ed. 672. Leaving aside for the moment these two matters of detail, it must be plain that the right of enforcement is only rendered effective and meaningful if the beneficiaries first of all know that they are beneficiaries and secondly possess or have access to the required information to render the trustees accountable for their actions. A trust must be both visible to beneficiaries and enforceable by them.

There might be something there. What does anyone else think?

 

GuidoT's suggestion is a good starting point but the bank is within their rights to ignore it for an account for a limited company as the DPA does not apply. And I guess that aphrodite has already tried that - hence the problem.

 

I would try this: Write to the bank and point out that they act as your fiduciary regarding your account and that, under common law, you therefore have the right to all accounting information relating to your dealings with them and they have the duty to supply it.

 

To my knowledge, no one has tried this before and I only just thought of it, but it is worth a try (and even if it is total rubbish it might work - after all "if you can't blind them with science, baffle them with bulls**t"). In the meantime, I will try and get one of the legally-minded mods to comment.

 

Incidentally, aphrodite, I think you ought to start yor own thread otherwise we are going to get muddled. Same applies to you banklover_not.

[aphrodite]

hi guido, thanks for that,have already tried an s a r ,which they refused,as stephen says it doesnt apply to ltd's. Am going to go into bank to try, will let you know outcome. would love to click on everyones scales but don't know how??

[GuidoT]

I know SAR should only be applicable to Business, but it worked for me. If popping in does not work, as I say phone and if they require payment, then add that cost to your claim.

 

Do you know how to start your own thread? If not have a read here:

Guide to Forum

[steven4064]

would love to click on everyones scales but don't know how??

To "click the scales" click on the little silver icon at the bottom left of the post that looks like a small tree between the green/grey dot and the warning triangle.

[GuidoT]

Bank wrote at the end of Sept and said they need 6 - 7 weeks to responded.

 

Received a response wherein the banks offered 2/3rds of the sum claimed.

 

Need to think about what to do.