Morgan Stanley have eaten my CCA!

[Monty2007]

Well they can't produce the original so must have! After all, eating of agreements could have been one of the pre-contractual terms on the application which they usually rely on - we will never know.

 

Neither of us know what the hell we agreed to all those years ago and all they can do is print out copies of stuff that I have never seen before and they now seem to be called Goldfish, Guppy, Coy Carp or something. With the advent of the digital age, computer chips and the silicon revolution etc you would think these people would maybe scan documents?

 

I bet they keep the signed employment contract for their CEO - or maybe not?

[payingonlyencouragesthem]

What exactly did they send you? I ask because I had an MS card and never heard a single thing after I stopped paying three years ago. No doubt the debt collection circus will come to town one day so would like to know what to expect. I hope you are not thinking of paying them - that CEO got a £10m bonus last year so your contribution wouldn't be missed.

[Monty2007]

Dear Paying

I received:

(1) a covering letter stating, "Thank you for your recent request for information under s.78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 ("The Act").

Please find enclosed a copy of the executed agreement, a signed Statement of the state of your account together with a copy of the current terms and conditions applicable to your account, in accordance with s.78 of the Act. If you require any further info.......

(2) A computer generated Goldfish letter which welcomes me and on the back is an unsigned CCA. It has my new address on it and all the relevant terms but they have not sent one with my sig on.

(3) Account information statement - signed by Ms Wallace with name, AC no, box saying CCA sent and outstanding balance

(4) A copy of Morgan Stanley T&C's.

 

I opened the account in 2003 and they have sent nothing that relates to back then, nothing with my sig on. I have responded with:

 

Thank you for your letter dated XX July 2007 and enclosures.

 

What I requested was a “true and signed copy” of the credit agreement in relation to the above account, this is my right, and your obligation to provide, under s.78 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. You claim that you have enclosed an “executed” agreement but none of the forms you sent are indeed legally executed since my signature is not on them?

 

The documents you have sent me appear to be recent and computer generated and do not contain either my signature or previous address.

 

Please can you actually send me a “true and signed copy” of the credit agreement in relation to the above account? A photocopy of the original credit agreement will be sufficient at this stage together with your T&C’s prevailing at that time.

 

As you will be aware the 20th Century witnessed some revolutionary developments that included the digital revolution, primarily driven by the silicon chip and included inventions such as computers, scanners and copiers. Most now available to the mass population, hence I am at a loss as to why a Global company such as your own has not taken the advantage of scanning and copying or indeed retaining what is a critical piece of documentation?

 

I look forward to hearing from you.

[powelll]

 

As you will be aware the 20th Century witnessed some revolutionary developments that included the digital revolution, primarily driven by the silicon chip and included inventions such as computers, scanners and copiers. Most now available to the mass population, hence I am at a loss as to why a Global company such as your own has not taken the advantage of scanning and copying or indeed retaining what is a critical piece of documentation?

 

And they say that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit? This is beautiful, just beautiful

[sequenci]

(2) A computer generated Goldfish letter which welcomes me and on the back is an unsigned CCA. It has my new address on it and all the relevant terms but they have not sent one with my sig on.

 

sorry to burst your bubble but under a cca s78 request that is all they HAVE to send you.

 

it sounds like they have complied with your request.

[Andy9012]

This is a conversation me & my mate have been having. He has recieved the same from MS / Goldfish and I have said to him that they have complied by what they have sent but what to do next?

 

Do you assume that because they only sent a basic copy they haven't got a true executed agreement?

 

If you send a letter requesting it again the likelhood is they will just reply saying they have complied as much as they are required to.

 

So do you wait for them to keep chasing and eventually go down the court route or is there a way to expedite matters and to get out of them whether they actually have the true executed copy or not?

 

Its a tricky one, i guess you could just ignore them and stop paying and then if it goes to court hope they will not be able to provide the true copy or even if they do hope the judge will take a dim view on them not coming up with it earlier..?

 

Trouble is with this is that they have complied

[sequenci]

Do you assume that because they only sent a basic copy they haven't got a true executed agreement?

who knows

 

If you send a letter requesting it again the likelhood is they will just reply saying they have complied as much as they are required to.

very likely

So do you wait for them to keep chasing and eventually go down the court route or is there a way to expedite matters and to get out of them whether they actually have the true executed copy or not?

how about a sar?

[Andy9012]

 

how about a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request)?

 

do they have to provide a true executed copy as part of a SAR then? I must admit this isn't an area I have looked into. When I claimed back my bank charges from Lloyds I didn't have to do a SAR as all the info was available on line. So subsequently i don't know much about the procedure especially relating to CC's:???:

[noomill060]

They've complied, Im afraid.

[sequenci]

do they have to provide a true executed copy as part of a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) then? I must admit this isn't an area I have looked into. When I claimed back my bank charges from Lloyds I didn't have to do a SAR as all the info was available on line. So subsequently i don't know much about the procedure especially relating to CC's:???:

 

if they have a copy of it then they should include it as it's your persdonal data, no?

[tomterm8]

You could go down a more complicated and less well traveled route.

 

1. Letter before action, stating your intention to reclaim penalty charges and your intention to apply to the court for the credit agreement to be declared unenforceable (under s.141)

 

2. pre-trial protocold disclosure request.

 

3. application for disclosure under the civil procedure rules.

[tomterm8]

if they have a copy of it then they should include it as it's your persdonal data, no?

 

but is it stored as part of a relevant filing system?

[sequenci]

but is it stored as part of a relevant filing system?

 

v.good point!

[Monty2007]

Many thanks for all your comments.

 

I have already gone through the S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) with MS, initially the sent me the statements for another person with the same surname as me! A different issue/thread.

 

The S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) only resulted in them eventually sending all my statements and no agreement. Given the fact that they have clearly stated is "executed" I thought I would state that it clearly is not executed. An executed agreement must have signatures of the contracted parties. What amazes me about this whole area is the inconsistencies of ccc. For Amex at least they sent the application for one card with my sig, but that does not conform to the regs.

 

I suspect that feel they have conformed but there is ambiguity throughout what constitutes "a true and signed copy". Who signs it? My signature or there's confirming that it is a true copy??

 

I could not resist the sarcasm bit, they even claimed that they had not breached the data protection act by sending me someone else's data!? I have asked for clarification on that one before I send consider my next step. They are also monitoring this site for sure.

[Andy9012]

Hi Monty

 

Someone else will be around who knows a bit more than me but as I understand it, it states somewhere that the ccc doesn't have to provide you with a signed copy when you request your CCA, they can just provide you with a copy that has all the relevant info on. However, if they wanted to enforce the debt in a court of law then they have to produce a true executed copy with both signatures. (afaik)

[Monty2007]

So why all the inconsistencies? Many banks and ccc produce either the signed cc application or the actual CCA (we have seen some!). How can they claim that they have provided me with a copy of the executed agreement? moreover it is not a "true" copy since it is a new document and I suspect is in a totally different format to whatever I might of signed. It is also not executed since it has no sigs on it.

 

I have therefore asked for a photocopy of the CCA I signed plus the T&C's at the time. This is a reasonable request and gets around the usual ambiguity. Then can say "no" or "yes". If they say no then I will show that I asked for this pre-disclosure.

[Andy9012]

The whole thing is full of inconsistancies at the moment I'm afraid, I'm not as well up on it as many here but from what I can see we are still learning as we go along - I think believe it or not that this goes for ccc's too.. Some CCC's seemed to have got wise to this part:

 

"For the purposes of complying with a request under CCA s77/78, the creditor may omit from the 'copy' agreement any signatures, the name/address of the debtor and 'office use' information. (Consumer Credit (cancellation notices and copies of documents) Regulations 1983)."

 

So basically they can just provide you with a copy sans signatures and still have complied lawfully with your request (i think) However, in order for them to enforce the agreement in court they must provide the proper true executed agreement with all the precribed terms and signatures.

 

The crux is whether you see them using this loophole as meaning that this means they haven't got a true CCA or whether they are just using it because they can.. from what I have read we don't seem to have a definitive answer on this one

[sequenci]

Don't get confused; a "true" copy doesn't have to be signed. For claification on this check out the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983, SI 1983 No 1557.

 

It's a pretty weird area if you ask me!

[sequenci]

lol - too late!

[Andy9012]

Don't get confused; a "true" copy doesn't have to be signed. For claification on this check out the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983, SI 1983 No 1557.

 

It's a pretty weird area if you ask me!

 

Doesn't have to be signed for purposes of a CCA request but does to be enforced in court isn't it?

[bed32]

but is it stored as part of a relevant filing system?

Yes - it would have to be.

 

In an organisation the size of MS, if they can find the information then it will be held within a relevant filing system

[tomterm8]

The crux is whether you see them using this loophole as meaning that this means they haven't got a true CCA or whether they are just using it because they can.. from what I have read we don't seem to have a definitive answer on this one

 

i think you've got to understand that the purpose of the CCA 1974 is merly to allow you to find out what the terms are of the account.

 

you need to use slightly more ingenious means to force the b***rs to provide a copy of the real credit agreement.

 

i wouldn't read anything in to them providing a signed copy of the credit agreement on a C.A.R. Not providing it on a C.A.R. and S.A.R makes it unlikely, but not impossible, that they have a copy of the credit agreement.

[Monty2007]

They have to conform to s78 of the 1974 Consumer Credit Act. If their interpretation is that they can just press print and its lawful then I may have to accept that but they cannot call it "executed" since it clearly is not. An executed document (to be a binding agreement) has to have the signatures of the parties.

 

I have now asked for them to then send me a photocopy of whatever I have signed? this is not too much to ask is it? This is a reasonable request.

[tomterm8]

Yes - it would have to be.

 

In an organisation the size of MS, if they can find the information then it will be held within a relevant filing system

 

there have been dozens of cases, including cases that have gone to the court of appeal, where banks have got away with not disclosing information under the D.P.A. 1998 because it isn't part of a relevant filing system...

 

point here is burden of proof. Can you PROVE it is part of a relevant filing system?

[Andy9012]

I think if i understand what tomtom is saying that the surest way to get a copy (i.e. find out if they actually have one) is to request it as pre disclosure in a court case.. I'll leave it to tt though as this is way out of my knowledge zone!