Magistrates Court for a £1 Underground fare "evasion"?

[charlie7111]

Well the court case is this monday. I sent in the plea yesterday but just called them up to say i want to change my plea to not guilty. So just come in on Monday to say it in person. Apparently its not the duty solicitor but the legal adviser that you can get to see. Yes I used a solicitor called Ruth at Edward Hayes in the first instance when they sent letter requesting information about the incident. She has been very helpful but the fees are very expensive tho. They charge like £200 per hour. Just for the letter and the phone calls were £500.

[stupid123]

Thanks for that. Please keep me posted on the out come. I spoke to Ruth earlier, but she said that she need to see me to disscus the case and she could not advise me much over the phone.

 

Do you know what is the worst thing that can happen?

 

I have been on the phone all morning and I have been getting mixed messages. I call CRB and they gave me aonther number and they said that it is a non recordable offence but he wasn't 100% sure as to how long that would stay on the my record.

 

Is it true that if you plead not guilty and was found guilty that you would be fined £1000

 

good luck for Monday. Fingers crossed

[stupid123]

sorry but how come you not having your solicitor there?

[charlie7111]

Yep you get a non recordable record which means that it won't be on the National Police data but will be on the local one. This means that it won't show up on the standard one but will on the enhanced which is normally required in teaching and some other profession such as law I think. Not sure about the £1000 fine but as if I'm not pleading guilty then no need for solicitor yet as they will then rearrange it for another date.

[stupid123]

good luck.

 

please keep me posted.

[charlie7111]

Will do

[Maursh]

I have made a big long post under the transport / trains sections on this yesterday, so do look under "Re: Cautioned for not having Train ticket" for my experience particuarly on penalty fares.

 

With respect to prosections, whatever you do, don't just enter a guilty plea and send a cheque by post. This is what they want, it is easy revenue for them and you suffer in the long run. On the other hand, if you plead not guilty, show up in court, you make it difficult, you won't be worse off and I think there is a good chance to win. My understanding is that the prosecution are obligated to show "mens rea" - guilty mind. Basically, they have to prove that you had intent and this is surprisingly difficult.

 

Ahead of the hearing write to them explaining that you understand that they have to show mens rea, that you intend to enter a not guilty plea and your personal circumstances (eg picked up mums bag, walked off with boyfriend oyster,was harassed by over zealous burly male RPI into confessing to something you didn't do etc). This constitutes your defence. Some legally able bod on here might be able to confirm or refute this, but I recall that if you show them your hand, they must show you theirs, ie they must show you their evidence against you if you declare your defence.

 

In my circumstances, they simply dropped the case, but it was last minute - they waited to see if I would turnup for the court hearing. If you do go to court, I think that you can enter your letter as defence and simply let the prosecution do their worst. Obviously it is better to employ a solicitor or better yet a barrister, for the case, but I had trouble getting any solicitors to take my case seriously (£1 ticket). The point is, do what you can and don't lie down and let them walk all over you.

 

On another note, perhaps someone could advise on the fare evasion offence appearing on an enhanced check at the CRB. I was under the impression that this was an unrecordable. Is someone able to clarify what this means exactly and also exactly what sort of information is held as local police data?

[charlie7111]

Hi Maursh

 

I have read your thread and was wondering whether another date has to be set when I enter a plea of not guilty on Monday. Do I need to have a solicitor present at this stage if they are going to rearrange the date again? When the inspector stopped me I said I didn't know how much I had on my own oyster card, does that amount to "mens rea" even though in my doctor's letter to TFL it said I was suffering from psychosis and confusion and this accounted for my bizarre state of mind and actions? I just said yes to all questions including birthplace even though it was not correct.

[Maursh]

Hi Charlie7111,

 

I am not a legal person at all, just someone who was in the same situation, so any "advice" I hand out comes with a big disclaimer.

 

When you are in court on Monday, try and see the legal bod (duty solicitor or whoever), but I think that you might be able to ask for an adjornment, explaining that you have taken it under advisement to change your plea given that you had no intent and that you need time to put your defence together and that no doubt the prosecution team need the same. I would say this is the best thing to do because it will give you an opportunity to get "lawyered up" if it is still required. But moreover, it gives the prosecution team a chance to realise that you are not a 10minute job and to actually review your case and circumstances. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't elect to drop your case entirely and that you don't have to go back to court at all.

 

Unfortunately, if they do not, I think that you will have to get a solicitor on board which won't be cheap. If you really can't afford it then perhaps a friend or parent will represent you... I think that it's easier than doing it yourself anyway.

 

Incidentally, not knowing how much you had on your own oyster card, is definately not "mens rea".

 

Good luck. Let us know how you get on.

[charlie7111]

Hi thanks for that. Have spoken to a solicitor who said its better if he comes along on Monday to persuade them again that its not in the best public interest. He is charging £400 for the service. Is it true that someone from the prosecution will be there? I just thought they sent in the evidence before the judge and one just has to plea guilty or not guilty. Anyway I'll be bringing along some of the documentations about the side effects and testimonials from the Internet of people who had experiences of using the drugs. Do you think this will help my case?

[stupid123]

Hi,

 

How did you get on in court today?

[charlie7111]

Well had a talk with the solicitor I was with today and he advised pleading guilty with mitigating circumstances which I did. Not sure now if I should have done that. Anyway they gave me a conditional discharge but had to pay the court fee but not the fine. Told my employers about it and they were very supportive - just said don't worry. They thought the TFl was a bit of an ass; should have been more useful pursuing real criminals. Quite alot didn't bother to turn up. If you are lucky and are not in certain jobs such as accountant, teacher or working with vulnerable people the criminal record will not show up unlike me. Some at work suggested I should not have pleaded guilty...Hope it help

[raydetinu]

so not too bad then, what were the conditions to the discharge?

[charlie7111]

12 months not to do it again I think. Thought it was a waste of money getting in a lawyer as I could have got that by myself with the doctor's letters.

[stupid123]

Hi,

 

Is it worth attending court. The judge will make his judgement with or without me.

 

What do you think?

[charlie7111]

They already pretty much made up their mind and tend to side with the prosecution. There were lots of court summons on the prosecutor's desk but only a handful actually turned up. So don't know what would happen to them. Bet its the only law abiding citizens that came and not the persistent offenders. It is the persistent offenders that causes London Underground to lose their revenue but the only way they can recover that is to bully others...Honestly my employers were saying not worth worrying about - TFL is just court mad as no other countries not even New York do this apart from on the spot fine

[stupid123]

Thanks for that. I have been so worried about the whole thing that it is making me sick. 4 years ago I was diagnosied with breast cancer and my husband keeps reminding me that I survived 4 major operation this court case nothing compare to what I had to go through, never the less I am worried sick.

[Mwayn]

I tried reasoning to a prosecutor at TFL investigation and prosecution phone line and they were rude and useless.

I did not manage to get any help at Citizens Advice Bureau and found that free legal advice is nearly impossible to come by.

I was not allowed a duty solicitor in court. I was advised to come early in the morning to consult a duty clerk, however he waved me through to the usher even though I explained I'd never been to court and needed to find out about mitigation, etc. Everyone at the magistrates court was condescending and unhelpful. I plead guilty just to get it over and done with as soon as possible. I did not manage to get any advice, I wasn't given opportunity to plead mitigation. The juridical clerks in the courtroom didn't even consider my income sheet showing I'm a struggling self-employed artist. When they asked if I had anything to say in court and appeared to be going blah blah blah to themselves all through the delivery of my scrupulously prepared apology speech. They might as well have been an automatic fine collection machine, for the amount of attention and consideration I received, and I was charged £150 court fees for the privilege. That's on top of £100 for TFL (for hiring 3 guys to harass me on the train, obviously) and the god damn £1 fare I supposedly evaded (which made the clerk choke in surprise).

 

All I can say is I am hugely disappointed in the legal system, and being collaborative, polite and decent makes no difference, and no matter how many apology letters/phonecalls you waste your time on you will be treated like a criminal and fined a standard fine (which ended up £251 instead of the £101 they were claiming for in the summons letter, thanks for the warning).

 

If you get caught with a wrong ticket or no ticket or whatever I suggest you DO NOT TALK to the inspectors, you don't have to give any statement, because if you do they will happily use it to take you to court (as I was told "TFL strongly believe it is NOT ridiculous to waste the court's time for a quid and take fare evasion very seriously").

 

I was told I did not end up with a police criminal record, by the way. I guess that was a pleasant surprise.

 

 

Hey, I read the whole thing, kinda disturbing and scary, you can say that exactly the same thing happened to me but was in a bendy bus. I used my friends card, but when it came to taking my details I spelled my name incorrectly and gave some fake date of birth as i got really frightened when they told me, they will be taking me to the court for that small thing, I had given them my address though, so i recieved this letter wanting my statements..on what happend as they may file a case against me.....Now do u think i should be replying to it with all the silly reasons?? would it help? or should i just ignore it as the first name isnt mine and last name is spelled incorrectly... what possible can they do?? should i just send the letter back mentioning no1 with that name lives at this housse. I have never been to a court or delt with such things in life. tell me what can i do..Plzz i would a criminal record would spoil my whole career as im a struggling graduate..

[Old-CodJA]

If it were me I would write, tell the truth of what happened and try to come to a mutually acceptable resolution with the underground people.You may say well, you spelt your name incorrectly, or, write back and say this person doesn't live here, but any prosecution officer worth their job title would check the details that they have been given. If the name check came up with a close match but just spelled differently, they could argue that the ticket inspector mis-spelt what he heard and you didn't correct it at the time. I wouldn't rely on a court not believing it was you or you might well find you get a summons anyway.

[TFLgoingmad]

Well had a talk with the solicitor I was with today and he advised pleading guilty with mitigating circumstances which I did. Not sure now if I should have done that. Anyway they gave me a conditional discharge but had to pay the court fee but not the fine. Told my employers about it and they were very supportive - just said don't worry. They thought the TFl was a bit of an ass; should have been more useful pursuing real criminals. Quite alot didn't bother to turn up. If you are lucky and are not in certain jobs such as accountant, teacher or working with vulnerable people the criminal record will not show up unlike me. Some at work suggested I should not have pleaded guilty...Hope it help

 

 

Hi there, Charlie7111, I need your help!

 

I sooooo hope you will read this. I have a similar case to yours- with mitigating circumstances of having a personality disorder which influences memory. I made a mistake of touching not the right Oyster card and am now going to court.

 

Please could you advice if I should plead guilty or not? Did you actually get a criminal record?

 

Thank you ever so much.

[Old-CodJA]

Hi there, Charlie7111, I need your help!

 

I sooooo hope you will read this. I have a similar case to yours- with mitigating circumstances of having a personality disorder which influences memory. I made a mistake of touching not the right Oyster card and am now going to court.

 

Please could you advice if I should plead guilty or not? Did you actually get a criminal record?

 

Thank you ever so much.

 

 

You should write to the people who have sent you the letter.

 

Enclose a copy of a letter from your GP confirming that in his opinion, you suffer from an illness or mental health condition, which had a definite bearing on your action.

 

I'd be very surprised if they attempt to prosecute in the face of that evidence. On the other hand, they do not have to take your word for it without any evidence and any court would ask for some.

 

Hope that helps

[TFLgoingmad]

I did send a letter with letters from my doctor and psychotherapists- I did not help. I still got the summons.

[Old-CodJA]

I did send a letter with letters from my doctor and psychotherapists- I did not help. I still got the summons.

 

Then either engage a solicitor or, attend court yourself, plead not guilty and show the Magistrates the evidence of these letters that state that you were not responsible for your actions.

 

It will be necessary to be sure that is what the medical opinion is and if it is, that is what the letter will say.

 

Good luck

[TFLgoingmad]

Thanks.

 

Well, according to the law, my condition does not make me 'not responsible' for my actions. It can influence concentration and memory, so I can act in a way a 'normal' person wouldn't but I am, apparently, still responsible for my actions .

[Old-CodJA]

If that is the expert opinion, I guess your best option is to try to get the rail company to let you settle out of court for an agreed fee thereby avoiding a conviction or, attend court and plead guilty.

 

If you do the latter, you will be convicted, but you will get a chance to put your mitigation in person and the magistrates may well look on that favourably.