DCA approach after 5 years.....

[debtsurvivor]

Good luck with everything, Priority One's letter reads very well

[Jason Toulmin]

Ok, I have made a few changes, not many.

Dear xxxxxx

 

Ref xxxxxx

 

Thank you for your letter of xx/xx/2007.

 

In spite of my previous written attempts to try and reach an amicable agreement with yourselves, I was disappointed to read of yet more threats to instigate legal proceedings against me, with a view to obtaining a charge on my present home in relation to the above referenced account. I have also noted your threats to apply for the enforced sale of my present home at some point after this charge has been granted; in order to secure payment of the monies that are alleged to be owed, despite my efforts in my letter dated 05/09/2007; attempting to reach an amicable agreement, which you have “noted”, but not responded to.

 

As you may appreciate, although I am aware that legal proceedings remain an option to you, I would still prefer to reach an amicable settlement of this matter for the sake of my family and myself. However, I also need to be realistic with regard to the amount I can afford to settle with. With this in mind, I am prepared to offer you the sum of £2000 in Full & Final Settlement of this account. This is the maximum amount that I am able to raise; having sold a number of personal possessions in the process of raising it. However, if you do not respond to this offer within a period of 14 days, then I will have to assume that you are not willing to accept this settlement. I could be wrong but I felt as though the other letter kind of invited them to take me to court at this point!

 

If this does prove to be the case after all, and you do decide to persue legal action please be advised that any legal action that you may instigate will be vigorously defended on the basis of unlawful charges being applied to this account before and after it’s sale/assignment to yourselves. These would invalidate both the Notice of Assignment and Deed of Assignment, due to the inclusion of unlawful charges on both legal documents. Is the notice of assignment the letter I was sent by the original lender or from AR? Also, the letter from the original letter states "by way of absolute assignment". What is the relevance of this?

 

I would also be requesting a full explanation/breakdown of any charges applied by yourselves since it’s sale/assignment, as well as all documentation that you would be relying on in court to secure payment of an alleged balance; as part of the Pre-Action Protocols. Err, bein a bit thick here but can you explain a little? You would also be requested to disclose to the court the absolute assignment document (which I have also!!) in support of this, as well as the purchase price upon acquisition.

 

I remain hopeful that we will be able to reach an amicable settlement of this matter and look forward to your reply in due course. Please be advised however, I am only prepared to communicate with you in writing. They dont have my number!!

Yours faithfully,

I noticed there was no content with regards to my knowing the property was sold for quite a bit below its value etc, any particular reason for this?

 

Thanks again.

[PriorityOne]

This is the maximum amount that I am able to raise; having sold a number of personal possessions in the process of raising it. However, if you do not respond to this offer within a period of 14 days, then I will have to assume that you are not willing to accept this settlement. I could be wrong but I felt as though the other letter kind of invited them to take me to court at this point!

 

Apologies... my aggressive streak comes out from time to time...lol !

 

If this does prove to be the case after all, and you do decide to persue legal action please be advised that any legal action that you may instigate will be vigorously defended on the basis of unlawful charges being applied to this account before and after it’s sale/assignment to yourselves. These would invalidate both the Notice of Assignment and Deed of Assignment, due to the inclusion of unlawful charges on both legal documents. Is the notice of assignment the letter I was sent by the original lender or from AR? Also, the letter from the original letter states "by way of absolute assignment". What is the relevance of this?

 

Yes it was.... an Absolute Assignment means that they have the right to pursue you through the courts themselves. If it was Equitable, then they would have to liaise with the original creditor and the original creditor would have to instigate action themselves.

 

I would also be requesting a full explanation/breakdown of any charges applied by yourselves since it’s sale/assignment, as well as all documentation that you would be relying on in court to secure payment of an alleged balance; as part of the Pre-Action Protocols. Err, bein a bit thick here but can you explain a little?

 

A legal requirement to disclose all evidence that they would be relying on in court.

 

You would also be requested to disclose to the court the absolute assignment document (which I have also!!) in support of this, as well as the purchase price upon acquisition.

 

Yes, I know you have... but if you leave that bit in, it will suggest that you know a bit about the law and they will need to be careful with you. Never a bad thing to do when trying to negotiate.... 8)

 

I remain hopeful that we will be able to reach an amicable settlement of this matter and look forward to your reply in due course. Please be advised however, I am only prepared to communicate with you in writing. They dont have my number!!

 

Excellent ! You can take this bit out then.... ... sounds a bit more friendlier without it as well...

 

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

I noticed there was no content with regards to my knowing the property was sold for quite a bit below its value etc, any particular reason for this?

 

.... because this action would have been carried out by the original creditor and not the DCA. If you were disputing this, then you would need to communicate with the original creditor.... the DCA would have acquired the account after these decisions had taken place.

 

Thanks again.

 

 

The way I see it Jason, you are being forced into a corner from which you have to defend yourself. The letter is not rude... it's just making them aware that you would like to settle in a friendly way. It would also show a judge that you have tried to settle in a friendly way, should it get that far.

 

If they still want to take to court, they will.... but that doesn't mean that you'll go down without a fight. DCAs normally like a pushover as opposed to someone who will give them a problem... so with any luck, you may get a result out of this.

 

Just to cover yourself further though.... go to that GP of yours as previously advised by other members... and have it registered in your notes that you are suffering from stress due to all of this. That way, if it does go to court, you can pull this out of the hat as well.

 

[tiglet]

If necessary, I'm sure there will be a CAGer in your area who would be happy to come along for support if it ever got that far.

[debtsurvivor]

If necessary, I'm sure there will be a CAGer in your area who would be happy to come along for support if it ever got that far.

 

Yes I'd guess that would be true, anyway let me reasure you having been to court twice for myself and three times to support friends, its was no where near as stressfull as the waiting having the issue hang over you and nothing happening.

 

Every time the Judge and court officials treated me with a great deal of respect, every time we got a good or reasonable outcome. I did need to have someone there to speak for me I get really emotional and find it near impossible to stick up for myself but on each ocaision I did speak to some extent. We have a great chap at our local CAB who gives up his time to be at the court to speak for defendants, he has experience of the judges and importantly he knows when to shut up too.

 

I dont think it will come to court anyway, your not dealing with the orignal lender I think fingers crossed they will accept your offer or something near it.

 

Best Wishes

 

DS

[Jason Toulmin]

Again thanks to all, I didnt really consider taking anyone to court if it came down to it but it would make a huge difference having a fellow CAG person or CAB person there.

Hey PriorityOne, I am pleased your agressive streak comes out against these DCAs, can be a useful tool!!

 

Gonna be sending letter very soon, fingers crossed and will let everyone know what the response is.

 

Oh, was thinking today and I have two questions:

 

1) On the only occassion that I have spoken to the DCA the woman on the phone and I "discussed" my raising money by selling my car and my partners car plus other items which is how the original sum of £10,000 settlement was reached. Are they supposed to encourage you to sell your personal posessions?

 

2) Before I left my property (two months most) the original lender renewed my mortgage as I went from endowment to repayment. The amount stayed the same I think, around 30K but then they sold my house for less than 20k less than 11 months later. Is there anything in this fact, ie valuations versus mortgage versus value sold for etc?

[PriorityOne]

Again thanks to all, I didnt really consider taking anyone to court if it came down to it but it would make a huge difference having a fellow CAG person or CAB person there.

Hey PriorityOne, I am pleased your agressive streak comes out against these DCAs, can be a useful tool!!

 

Gonna be sending letter very soon, fingers crossed and will let everyone know what the response is.

 

Oh, was thinking today and I have two questions:

 

1) On the only occassion that I have spoken to the DCA the woman on the phone and I "discussed" my raising money by selling my car and my partners car plus other items which is how the original sum of £10,000 settlement was reached. Are they supposed to encourage you to sell your personal posessions?

 

No, it's bowlarks. What you are hearing is standard "training manual" speak. You have to remember that they are taught to see people who owe money as lesser beings... **** of the earth.... to be denied basic comforts, eat beans every day in order to afford bigger payments, use newspaper for bog roll and so on.... lol. Having said that, some newspapers are only good enough for bog roll....

 

There is no need to tell them you have a car anyway. Say that you walk everywhere, if asked.

 

2) Before I left my property (two months most) the original lender renewed my mortgage as I went from endowment to repayment. The amount stayed the same I think, around 30K but then they sold my house for less than 20k less than 11 months later. Is there anything in this fact, ie valuations versus mortgage versus value sold for etc?

 

You would need to take these kind of queries up with the original lender. This particular battle is not about the original lender, which is why I've tried to seperate these facts out from what the DCA is threatening.

 

You have every right to query this with the original lender, but since the account has been sold.... it's a completely seperate issue from the problems that you are now facing with the DCA.

 

 

[Jason Toulmin]

What I meant was can I use the fact that they talked about me selling my property against them (as in contravening guidlines)

 

AND I realise these queries need taking up with the lender but highlighting these as a valid defense would at least let the dca know that I know I can put the original amount of debt into disripute by quite a large amound, which means their claim does not have the substance that they think it does

[PriorityOne]

What I meant was can I use the fact that they talked about me selling my property against them (as in contravening guidlines)

 

Not unless you have it in writing....

 

AND I realise these queries need taking up with the lender but highlighting these as a valid defense would at least let the dca know that I know I can put the original amount of debt into disripute by quite a large amound, which means their claim does not have the substance that they think it does

 

You could only do this if you had proof... and this would take absolutely ages to establish. Remember, the DCA has the Absolute Assignment of this account and bought it from the original creditor... who would be held responsible for selling the property for less than it was worth, not them.

 

As I see it. your only route with the DCA would be to contest their Notice of Assignment to you and their Deed of Assignment from the original creditor.... because these are legal documents that are likely (but still not proven) to contain unlawful charges.... which if proven, would mean that an account was sold with an incorrect balance; making them potentially invalid in terms of enforceability.

 

 

[Jason Toulmin]

I cannot agree with you more. I just cannot believe that everything was done to the letter so that the amount they say is owed is 100% correct. Surely they have to prove how the amount was calculated, ie SAR and showing proof of valuations etc.

[PriorityOne]

I cannot agree with you more. I just cannot believe that everything was done to the letter so that the amount they say is owed is 100% correct. Surely they have to prove how the amount was calculated, ie S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) and showing proof of valuations etc.

 

I would be very surprised to find out that any amounts claimed by DCAs are correct actually... but you are confusing 2 separate issues here. You are dealing with threats from the DCA. The DCA would have had nothing whatsoever to do with any valuations and the price that your property was eventually sold for. They would have bought the account after those actions had already been authorised by the original creditor.

 

As for the amount the DCA is claiming now... then yes, they would need to show that the amount they are claiming is correct if you defended their action against you.... and in those circumstances, you could ask for this proof as part of the Pre-Action Protocols....as this would be information that they were intending to rely upon.

 

For the moment however, you are trying to get the DCA off your back without going to court. You have stated throughout that you would prefer to settle the matter amicably with them.... and that's what we're trying to do. You may end up in court at the end of the day.... but you're not in there yet. If you would prefer to go to court and thrash it out that way, then you would be prolonging the stress for yourself IMO.

 

Seek answers to your questions by all means.... but cover yourself while doing it. If your health is suffering due to the stress of all this... then you need to put that... and the concerns of your family... first.

 

I am merely advising you Jason. You don't have to do anything that I say on here. As I said earlier.... the view from the outside is entirely different from the one experienced by yourself. I can appreciate how angry you must feel about having your property sold beneath its true value, but if you are able to settle this account (F&F) with the DCA.... then you would be free to investigate this at your leisure with the original creditor....

 

At the moment, the DCA is in control.... and that's the difference.

 

[sosumi]

Jason, I'm subscribing, and just to say keep going and we're all with you here! xx

[Jason Toulmin]

Hi again PriorityOne. I think maybe I am not explaining myself very well, I apologise for this as I am not as experienced and knowledgable as a lot on here.

 

The reason I mention all of the charges etc prior to the DCA, is that the DCA are not asking for any more money than what is on the Deed Of Assignment, ie their total owed and the origninal total owed by the creditor is the same. This is implying that they have not added charges. I do have the letter from the original lender also which has the same figure on it. This is why I am repeating myself with regards to challenging the original lenders costs etc as the DCA have added nothing to the account up to this point. I cannot claim against something that they havent added therefore my only recourse is to defend myself using charges/incorrect sale price etc that will have been brought by the original creditor and thus this is all I can use to show the DCA that I even have a defense.

I really hope that made sense!!!

 

Oh, and hello sosumi, its nice to have someone else on board for support. xx

[debtsurvivor]

Ok Jason let me try to sum up things as I see it

 

You are being greatly bothered by a DCA who purchased a debt from you old mortgage lender the debt is valued at £20K and the DCA certainly paid a lot less for it! How much we will probably never know but they have already been happy to indicate that the will accept £10K in full and final settlement you dont have £10K to pay them so they have bullied you suggesting you sell your assetts like your cars.

 

You want the whole thing to go away and be settled quite quickly so Priority1 is pointing you in the right direction buy suggesting that in the first instance you offer them £2K in full and final settlement (I'm assuming you have this to send them frankly I wouldn't have!).

 

There is a very good liklyhood that they will accept this figure or one not very much larger in which case your problems could be over in weeks. Were I in your shoes knowing what I know now I'd be giving this tactic a shot. If sucessful you have no need to defend yourself against anything.

 

If it proves unsucessful then CCA and perhaps S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) to make them prove that the debt would be enforcable in the courts.

 

At the end of the day its your call.

[Jason Toulmin]

Debtsurvivor, you are quite right, I do want this gone and I have raised some money in the hope that it will go away. I have taken the advice from here and I have sent a letter today offering a F+F offer so my fingers are well and truly crossed on this. Again, there is no way I could have gotten even this far without the people from this site so a big thankyou again. I will keep things up to date on here though either way it goes and I have already decided that I want to keep supporting the people on here also.

[PriorityOne]

Hi again PriorityOne. I think maybe I am not explaining myself very well, I apologise for this as I am not as experienced and knowledgable as a lot on here.

 

No need to apologise Jason.... it can get confusing on here at times.

 

The reason I mention all of the charges etc prior to the DCA, is that the DCA are not asking for any more money than what is on the Deed Of Assignment, ie their total owed and the origninal total owed by the creditor is the same. This is implying that they have not added charges. I do have the letter from the original lender also which has the same figure on it. This is why I am repeating myself with regards to challenging the original lenders costs etc as the DCA have added nothing to the account up to this point. There is nothing to stop you from doing this Jason... but you would need to challenge the original lender's costs with the original lender. I cannot claim against something that they havent added You are not claiming anything... you are pointing out that you will defend on the basis of incorrect info. on the Notice/Deed of Assignments. These figures would have been given to the DCA by the original creditor.... who are highly likely to have included unlawful charges on the account prior to its sale to the DCA. If the DCA had applied charges on top, then you would be contesting these as well... but the fact that they don't appear to have done so would still render the Notice/Deed of Assignments invalid if they contained unlawful charges from the OC in the first place. therefore my only recourse is to defend myself using charges/incorrect sale price etc that will have been brought by the original creditor and thus this is all I can use to show the DCA that I even have a defense. This line of argument will get you nowhere fast. You would need to prove it and it could take months. Take a look at Tideturner's thread that I gave you the link to in an earlier post.... it will show you how long his battle has been raging on for and it's still not over.

I really hope that made sense!!!

It does make sense, but it won't be a tight enough defence in court because you simply don't have the time to build it. If you want to begin finding out info. then there is nothing to stop you from sending a S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) to the original creditor to start the ball rolling, so to speak.

 

See what happens after sending the letter to the DCA... and go from there. If they don't accept your F&F, then you would need to do this anyway.

 

Oh, and hello sosumi, its nice to have someone else on board for support. xx

 

[Jason Toulmin]

I totally agree with all you have said above. I am hoping that they will accept my offer and wont want to get into any of the above. If they refure my offer then the first thing I will do is SAR the original lender. With the SAR to the originsl lender do I have to add things such as requesting proof of valuations, proof of adequate marketing etc or will they send me that sort of info just by SAR alone?

[PriorityOne]

A SAR is a request for all data.... which means that you should get all data. However, it doesn't do any harm to add emphasis to certain bits of info. that you want as part of the request.

[Jason Toulmin]

Here we go again!!!!

I have been sent a refusal for my offer to the DCA.

I have written an S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) for the original creditor and also added the content that PriorityOne said may help/wouldnt hurt.

So, here it is, does it look ok?:

 

 

 

 

Data Protection Act 1998

Subject Access Request

 

 

 

Reference: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

 

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

Please supply me with a complete list of transactions and charges relating to my banking history with your organisation.

 

Please could you ensure that the following information is enclosed:

• When the arrears began
  
• When the last payment was made on the account
  
• When the Possession Order was given
  
• When the house was sold
  
• Any valuations that were made on the property before the sale and the proof of these valuations
  
• Any costs that were involved in maintaining the property during the period between the repossession and the sale
  
• How the house was marketed and sold and at what price
  
• Ant costs that were involved in selling the property
  
• Any information pertinent to a claim being made against indemnity insurance
  
• How interest was calculated from the start of the arrears

Additionally, where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any member of your staff, or any other person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my banking business with you.

 

If you are unable to supply this data because there has been no such manual intervention, then please be so kind as to confirm this in your response.

 

I enclose the statutory maximum fee of £10. You have 40 days in which to comply.

If there is specific information, which you require in order to satisfy yourself as to my identity, please let me know by return. However, please note that the above address is the one which you used to communicate my private business to me and which you have hitherto found to be acceptable.

I would be happy to collect the Data from my local branch.

 

 

Yours faithfully,

 

blah blah

 

 

 

 

[tiglet]

You won't open a can of worms - you are absolutely doing the right thing (sorry to split my infinitives)

[Jason Toulmin]

Hi tiglet, I am sure you are right, I mean, I know I have the right to know these things but I am not exactly trusting of these companies!!! You know like, "hello Mr Lender this is Mrs Lender, did you know Mr X did this/has debts blah blah............", but I could be wrong.

 

Can I ask a totally unrelated question, how can I upgrade my account? Is it by making a donation, which I am going to do but want to upgrade also!?!

[tiglet]

No, it's by giving advice and the number of pots you make.