Fred Bassett v Bank of Scotland/Blair Oliver Scott

[reallymadwoman]

My agreement is pretty much the same, but with no mention of the CCA 1974 and with the confusion over what sort of account it is, I've told BOS that it's unenforceable and haven't heard from them since.

 

If it's a credit card, which even they say that it is, then you've been denied the protection of the CCA.

[jon888999]

Hi,

Just wondered how old this agreement & how long they took to send it to you.

I've requested one from 1994. I can't remember ever signing one to be honest.

[Pinky69]

I've had a close look at this Fred. This one of these curious hybrid accounts where they issue you with a keycard but give you an overdraft facility on it, which normally a keycard wouldn't have, nor is it a credit card, only a card you can use to have access to the account and overdraft. It has an overdraft limit, an interest rate and your signature so in my view is enforceable. I think you now have to ask them for statements so you can claw back charges and from the age of the account there are probably plenty of them.

[Fred Bassett]

I wrote, recorded delivery, to IQOR last week and asked them to confirm that this credit agreement was regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

Today I got this:

 

 

I find this a bit odd. I asked a very straightforward question which required a "yes" or "no" answer.

 

Any comments anyone?

 

Regards.

 

Fred

[Fred Bassett]

After yesterday's letter from IQOR, I received a text message this morning -URGENT, contact IQOR over a CRITICAL business matter.

 

Now I can't see anything about this that I would consider to be critical. I wonder if there is something they don't want me to find out.

 

As a matter of interest, if this agreement is not regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974, then what would it be regulated by?

 

Regards.

 

Fred

[jon888999]

What ever BOS say, this account was a credit card, all be it an unusual format one.

What current account would send you monthly statements stating minimum payment needed & showing a due date?

I opened mine in 1994 or rather mine was opened by NWS bank as part of car finace. I'm farly certain that no agreement ever existed for this account.

My CCA request went in, in August.

[Fred Bassett]

What ever BOS say, this account was a credit card, all be it an unusual format one.

What current account would send you monthly statements stating minimum payment needed & showing a due date?

I opened mine in 1994 or rather mine was opened by NWS bank as part of car finace. I'm farly certain that no agreement ever existed for this account.

My CCA request went in, in August.

 

Jon, mine went off over a year ago but they still produced an agreement. It seems to have all of the usual terms and conditions but it is not headed "Credit Agreement Regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974" and I think that this makes it unenforceable. That's why I have asked IQOR to confirm that this is the case.

 

Regards.

 

Fred

[Pinky69]

It is not a current account, nor is it a credit card account - it is a keycard account with a credit limit. That possibly brings it into Section 77, which is why Iqor are getting upset.

[Fred Bassett]

It is not a current account, nor is it a credit card account - it is a keycard account with a credit limit. That possibly brings it into Section 77, which is why Iqor are getting upset.

 

Thanks Pinky. I'll have to wait and see what they say now. They've acknowledged my letter which was sent recorded delivery. My guess is that they want to try to get me to cave in before they've answered my question. No chance.

 

Regards.

 

Fred

[reallymadwoman]

Hi Fred,

I'll be very interested in what answer you get.

 

In case you haven't already read it elsewhere, check what type of account it's described as on your credit reference file. On mine, it's quite clearly described as a credit card, and Bank of Scotland also referred to it as a credit card in correspondence with the FOS.

 

If it is a credit card (or actually anything other than a straightforward current account) then of course it should be regulated by the CCA, but I'm not sure what effect it has if it isn't.

[Fred Bassett]

Hi Fred,

I'll be very interested in what answer you get.

 

In case you haven't already read it elsewhere, check what type of account it's described as on your credit reference file. On mine, it's quite clearly described as a credit card, and Bank of Scotland also referred to it as a credit card in correspondence with the FOS.

 

If it is a credit card (or actually anything other than a straightforward current account) then of course it should be regulated by the CCA, but I'm not sure what effect it has if it isn't.

 

RMW,

 

I didn't think of that. I've just checked it and it says that this is a credit card. That's excellent news because a) I am sure that the "agreement" should be headed with the words "Credit Agreement Regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974" and this might be unenforceable as a result. b) Even if it is enforceable, there will be a mountain of charges against it which I will be able to claim back - and rest assured that if I do I will apply their rate of interest.

 

Thanks - you've made my day!

 

Regards.

 

Fred

[Fred Bassett]

Well I can't get to the bottom of this.

 

I'm reasonably certain now that this is a credit card. So the questions are:

 

 

1. If it is a credit card, is it regulated by the consumer credit act 1974?
   
2. If this is the case, should this not be apparent on the agreement?
   

The strange thing is that this card was essentially unsolicited - it came along with a loan which has since been paid off. The loan part of the agreement has a statement saying that it is regulated by the CCA, but the preference card doesn't.

 

I'm sure I've seen something on here about this wording having to appear, but now I can't find it. I've also looked at the Act itself to no avail so I am probably mistaken.

 

Any help on this would be appreciated.

 

Regards.

 

Fred

[Pinky69]

The stipulation for the wording of an agreement should be in the The Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983.

[Fred Bassett]

Thanks Pinky - that's what I'm trying to find.

 

Regards.

 

Fred

[Fred Bassett]

Hi all, I spent about 45 minutes earlier creating this post only to find that it hasn't appeared. Sh*t. Here it is again.

 

This is very confusing for a number of reasons, so I'll start with the agreements that I have been sent by BOS. I only posted 2 pages earlier but now the other 2 have become relevant. As with a lot of these types of agreements, the preference card was included with a loan. Here's what I have been sent:

 

Page 1: Loan Agreement and Preference Card Agreement

Page 2 Loan Agreement and Preference Card Agreement Ts & Cs

Page 3 - Preference Card Agreement Only

Page 4 Preference Card Agreement Ts & Cs

 

Now I have been asking IQOR the question, "is this agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974". They have written back and said "Yes" and as you can see from the agreement in page 1 they have very helpfully highlighted the reference to the CCA.

 

The problem I have with this is that it is quite clear to me that although reference is made in both pages 1 & 2 to the CCA 1974, none of these references are in regard to the preference account - they relate to a loan which has long since been paid and about which there is no dispute.

 

I didn't sign the agreement for the preference card along with the loan - I did this later - this is what is on pages 3 & 4 and neither of these pages contains a reference to the CCA.

 

I can't work out why BOS have sent me paperwork for a loan which has long since been paid unless it was that this was the only thing they have which references the Consumer Credit Act.

 

Is this important? I haven't got a clue. IQOR have confirmed to me that this agreement is regulated by the CCA - their exact words were: "We have highlighted the confirmation that this is a Credit Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974 for your convenience". Indeed they have, but as you can see, this relates to the loan, not the preference account.

 

This account is listed as a credit card in my credit file.

 

So where do I stand?

 

Is it covered by the CCA 1974 or not?

If it is not, why not?

Does it matter if it is not?

If it is, shouldn't this be made clear?

If it is and hasn't been made clear, does this matter?

 

I am a bit suspicious for 2 reasons. Firstly, they have been making the most dire threats and dozens of calls to try and pressurise me into making an agreement. I have resisted this and they have given me a stay of execution for 2 weeks as well as an apology. The other thing that I'm curious about is the fact that they sent me some copy statements. Nearly all of them highlighted the payment I was making when I was on a DMP, but the first of these contained £30 worth of charges and an item for £125 listed as “NO DESC FOUND” . Very odd. Naturally, I have now CCA'd BOS.

 

So many questions, I know. I really would appreciate some help with this one folks.

 

Regards.

 

Fred

Edited September 25, 2008 by Fred Bassett

[Fred Bassett]

Bump. Help!!!

[Fred Bassett]

Bump.

[jon888999]

What ever BOS say, this account was a credit card, all be it an unusual format one.

What current account would send you monthly statements stating minimum payment needed & showing a due date?

I opened mine in 1994 or rather mine was opened by NWS bank as part of car finace. I'm farly certain that no agreement ever existed for this account.

My CCA request went in, in August.

 

Hi, i've now got a copy of an agreement that might be enforceable, I'll post it on here later. However the terms and conditions are largely illegible and clearly come from different document.

Ie. The agreement says see over leaf, yet clearly the terms couldn't have been overleaf as they are differently proportioned. The bottom which I assume would have a date on has also been "smudged"/Hidden. (as per freds)

The agreement also appears to have had a tick added regarding repayment insurance, the tick is clearly different to the 4 others on it.

I'm certain that I wouldn't have requested repayment insurance.

Any thoughts on where to go next.

The agreement makes no mention of the consumer credit act 1974.

[Fred Bassett]

Hi, i've now got a copy of an agreement that might be enforceable, I'll post it on here later. However the terms and conditions are largely illegible and clearly come from different document.

Ie. The agreement says see over leaf, yet clearly the terms couldn't have been overleaf as they are differently proportioned. The bottom which I assume would have a date on has also been "smudged"/Hidden. (as per freds)

The agreement also appears to have had a tick added regarding repayment insurance, the tick is clearly different to the 4 others on it.

I'm certain that I wouldn't have requested repayment insurance.

Any thoughts on where to go next.

The agreement makes no mention of the consumer credit act 1974.

 

That's the bit I'm struggling with Jon - no mention of the CCA but they say it is regulated by it. I'm trying to work out if there is any significance of this.

 

Regards.

 

Fred

[jon888999]

That's the bit I'm struggling with Jon - no mention of the CCA but they say it is regulated by it. I'm trying to work out if there is any significance of this.

 

Regards.

 

Fred

Fred,

I'm going to SAR HBOS to see what that brings out of the woodwork!

As Iqor have offered to accept 25% of this debt in full and final settlement, I really think that this account isn't enforceable possibly because of a flawed agreement.

[Fred Bassett]

Fred,

I'm going to S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) HBOS to see what that brings out of the woodwork!

As Iqor have offered to accept 25% of this debt in full and final settlement, I really think that this account isn't enforceable possibly because of a flawed agreement.

 

Jon, I SARd BOS yesterday. I'm convinced this flawed but can't work out exactly why. I think the fact that it doesn't mention the CCA is the killer but I can't find anyone knowledgeable enough to confirm this.

 

Do you have your own thread on this one? If so I'll subscribe to see how you're getting on.

 

Regards.

 

Fred

[jon888999]

Hi Fred, Anymore news? I asked Iqor whther they consider the agreement they sent me to be compliant with the CCA. They replied yes. So i've taken that as confirmation that this account is regulated by the CCA.

I must try and post the agreement on here.

I've written back telling them it's unenforceable, it's largely illegible and because the terms and conditions refered to clearly come from a different document. I've demanded another copy without the footnote (deliberately) smudged so that I can't read the date on it.

 

Also does any body know whether a credit agreement regulated by the CCA has to be titled/Headed as such.

 

Thanks Jon

[reallymadwoman]

Also does any body know whether a credit agreement regulated by the CCA has to be titled/Headed as such.

 

I've been asking this question for a while.

[reallymadwoman]

And I've now been given the answer, which I'm posting on as many Preference account threads as I can find. Feel free to copy and paste if you know of any I've missed.

 

This is an extract from the 1983 regs:-

 

Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983

SCHEDULE 1

INFORMATION TO BE CONTAINED IN DOCUMENTS EMBODYING REGULATED CONSUMER CREDIT AGREEMENTS

TYPE OF AGREEMENT INFORMATION

(1) (2)

[Nature of agreement

1. All types (1) Subject to paragraph (2) below, a heading

in one of the following forms of words--

(a) "Hire Purchase Agreement regulated by the

Consumer Credit Act 1974";

(b) "Conditional Sale Agreement regulated by

the Consumer Credit Act 1974";

© "Fixed Sum Loan Agreement regulated by

the Consumer Credit Act 1974"; or

(d) "Credit Card Agreement regulated by the

Consumer Credit Act 1974",as the case may

require.

(2) If none of the headings in 1(a) to (d) above

are applicable a heading in the following form of

words--"Credit Agreement regulated by the

Consumer Credit Act 1974".

SCHEDULE 5

FORMS OF SIGNATURE BOX

Part I

Regulated Consumer Credit Agreements

FORM NO TYPE OF AGREEMENT FORM OF SIGNATURE BOX

(1) (2) (3)

6 Agreements not included in This is a Credit Agreement regulated by

paragraphs 1-5 or 7-8. the Consumer Credit Act 1974. Sign it only if you want to be legally bound by its terms.

Signature(s)

of Debtor(s)

 

It seems preference account agreements are missing both of these items, however that does not render the account irredeemably unenforceable as they are not prescribed terms. The agreement could be enforced by order of the court, so I think it would be up to you to show how 'missing' these terms has prejudiced you. Hopefully, being sold a bank account that is in fact a credit card would be a start, as would putting the agreement on the same page as a loan without clearly showing that you didn't need to sign both. A hint to all, have a look at how the account is described on your credit reference file.

[reallymadwoman]

Jon, I SARd BOS yesterday. I'm convinced this flawed but can't work out exactly why. I think the fact that it doesn't mention the CCA is the killer but I can't find anyone knowledgeable enough to confirm this.

 

Do you have your own thread on this one? If so I'll subscribe to see how you're getting on.

 

Regards.

 

Fred

 

Have a read of this post http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/159970-bos-preference-card-agreement-2.html#post1786639