Appeal for price comparisons in space & time

[Mistermind]

The Irish Tand C for Bank Of Ireland, Ulster Bank and AIB are probably the most relevant.

This is because they also have interests in Northeren Ireland (AIB known as First Trust bank).

If you could get fee rates for each, from "both sides of the border" it would definitely strengthen case, since charges in Northern Ireland are just set at similar level to other banks.

How can they argue that it costs less to process these "services" in Republic of Ireland than in Northern.

The difference in cost to customer is startling !!

 

Absolutely fab idea. The banks present a united front, that front needs to be broken. All judges who have ruled in favour of Lloyds have pointed out that a "service fee" at the market price is by definition "reasonable" being the only game in town.

 

This "market price" appears to be determined not by actual costs, or by competition, but by the Eire/Ulster border and the Irish Sea. Obviously there will be no CAG members in Eire(?). I shall try and see if Ulster CAGgers can be encouraged to focus on these contrasting prices -- at their expense.

[t2suggas]

In 1991 Allied Irish Banks bought TSB Bank Northern Ireland.

 

Lloyds TSB - TSB

[midge61]

Hi

Here is two links that may be of interest

 

http://www.competition-commission.org.uk/inquiries/ref2005/banking/prov_find_app_4-4.pdf

 

 

Provisional Findings report -Northern Irish personal banking

[Mistermind]

Hi

Here is two links that may be of interest

 

http://www.competition-commission.org.uk/inquiries/ref2005/banking/prov_find_app_4-4.pdf

(page 13 of 14)

 

Provisional Findings report -Northern Irish personal banking

(page 16 of 28 )

 

Both documents are of interest in any submission to court, questioning the legitimacy of charges allegedly (be careful with possible libel) kept at artificially high levels (compared to Eire) in Ulster and UK by an alleged possibility of price-fixing cartels, i.e. this allegedly may not be a true and competitive market.

 

It could be libellous to suggest UK banks are in a price-fixing cartel.

Far be it from me to suggest UK banks are in a price-fixing cartel.

[daimo]

My husband phoned the Dublin Branch of the Bank of Scotland (Ireland) to ask what the returned item charge was on a business account. He was told that it was 12.70 euros. He then phoned the Bank of Scotland in Edinburgh to ask why he was being charged £39 for returned items on his account when their Republic of Ireland customers were charged much lower fees. The Customer Care Manager could not answer this question but he said he would find out and write a letter of explanation. Yesterday the letter arrived with the following explanation:

"Having spoken to our colleagues in Bank of Scotland (Ireland), they have advised that whilst the Bank of Scotland (Ireland) is a subsidiary of HBOS Plc., it is in fact a separate entity and they therefore specify their own level of charges which have been approved by the Irish Financial Regulator."

This begs (at least) 2 questions.

1.Given

[daimo]

Sorry about that - I hit the wrong key!

 

To get back to the two questions.

 

1. Is the Bank of Scotland (Ireland) so much more efficiently run than the BoS here, that they can charge just 12.70 euros for the same procedure that costs £39 here?

2. If the Irish Financial Regulator has to approve the Bank charges in Eire, why does the OFT and the Financial Services Authority in Britain allow British Banks to levy such exorbitant penalty charges?

 

Also, if you check the British Banks that have subsidiaries in the Republic of Ireland, for example, the Royal Bank of Scotland owns the Ulster Bank in Northern Ireland and the Ulster Bank (Ireland), it becomes clear that banking fees in Britain for default charges across the board are much higher than in Eire. Why is this?

 

I am going to send the OFT a copy of the letter sent to my husband and ask if anyone there can explain this anomaly. I'll post any response I get.

[daimo]

Mistermind, It is easy to find the fees for Irish subsidiaries of British Banks on their websites. It makes very interesting reading!

[Mistermind]

daimo, the OFT went to sleep for 20 years. This is not libellous I hope.

 

Upon your question UK bankers' faces have gone a shade of crimson -- the same shade as a parent trying to give a child a Sex Education lesson.

[t2suggas]

Looks like Australia are suffering the same as us.

 

Westpac Internet -Fees, charges and interest

 

Interesting though, is the fact that the basic account, have charges that are half the other accounts. The basic accounts are for pensions, and such.

 

 

 

This one works out to about £12.76. (Drawings without funds, near the bottom.)

NAB - Personal banking fees and charges

 

 

£14.88, ordinary account. £4.25 for basic account.

http://www.anz.com.au/documents/au/feecharge/persbnkacctfees.pdf

 

 

Section 3.7 Adelaide bank. Approx £17.01.

http://www.adelaidebank.com.au/pdfs/PDS_pbfc.pdf

 

 

£17.01.

http://www.citibank.com.au/australia/pdf/MCG1063_Fees_Charges.pdf

 

 

 

£12.76

Commonwealth Bank Group - Personal - Personal Lending - Fees and Charges

 

 

 

£17.01, page 18.

http://www.suncorpmetway.com.au/suncorp/img/assets/3635/personal_deposit_account.pdf

[mumof4by1996]

Hi, I too have been interested in this, I have a cousin in the US, two bank manager sisterin laws in Germany and a sister in law in Australia would you like me to ask them for any info ontheir cjharges?

[t2suggas]

Hi, I too have been interested in this, I have a cousin in the US, two bank manager sisterin laws in Germany and a sister in law in Australia would you like me to ask them for any info ontheir cjharges?

The more the merrier, IMO.

 

Can anyone translate these french bank tariffs?

http://www.bpnord.fr/docs/tarifs_part_07-06.pdf

https://www.cic.fr/fr/banques/telechargements/tarifs/CIC_nat_tarifs_particuliers_janvier_2007.pdf

http://www.transat.tm.fr/blob.asp?id_blob=344

 

I can't find English versions.

[t2suggas]

If anyone could translate and make any sense from this site, they are members of HSBC.

 

Société Marseillaise de Crédit

[Mistermind]

Mumof4, yes I believe it would be helpful to collate information and form a wider view in a globalised world. Aus and USA consumer groups also actively campaign against excessive penalty charges, even though their level is only half ours.

 

UK has the most exhorbitant penalty charges in the developed world, and coincidentally the highest level of consumer debt, enough to worry the Bank of England and the Chancellor. Possibly because UK has the highest ratio of homeowners, and ever since WW2 automatic house price appreciation year on year has been taken for granted, so that people got used to high mortgage payments, credit card borrowings, loans and overdrafts. Presumably it would all work out alright in the end, thanks to house price growth.

 

From that point it was only a short slippery step towards tolerating penalty charges which continuously increased by stealth. Until the past year there had been in place a conspiracy not to discuss penalty charges in public, least of all to confess, God forbid, that one was a member of "Cheque Bouncers Anonymous". Bankers shrewdly reinforced this psychology, using loaded descriptions like "dishonouring cheques". Anybody caught in such a predicament was subtly persuaded by social convention to suffer in silence, not to protest in public. Every person thought his exploitation was an isolated case and it was his fault.

[bally35]

I dont know whether we can translate Austrailian price charges as being relevant to the argument.

I still believe that Bank of Ireland , AIB and Ulster Bank are the best examples of banks that essentially have interests in "mainland UK" , Northern Ireland and the Eire, where they all offer high street banking.

One could question whether Uk (including Northern Ireland) are subsidsing the rates paid by customers in Eire.

Also I think that there have been numerous investigations by authorities in Eire into the ways customers were being overchargedhttp://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache:f6awEyuIGvUJ:dev.rte.ie/news/2004/0507/aib.html+AIB+investigation+Irish&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=3&gl=uk.

Why is it that the authorities in Eire can set out a maximum charge and the FSA are unable to do so here.

Surely if the UK banks are arguing that hese charges cover the cost of processing in Uk (with interests in Eire), then good business sense would dictate the need to switch their processeing units to Eire?

Furthmore, if it is found that there is a profit being made from them (I believe that the competition Commission found that some 12% of Northern Irelands "big 4" banks profit came from charges), and that profit is being "hidden" is that then fraud?

[Mistermind]

It is all because of the magic of the shamrock that Dublin banks can charge £3.

 

Without it the Abbey Bank needs to charge £39 and only barely meet their costs.

[bally35]

Mistermind , Not just Dublin but all of Eire

[bally35]

Senior inspectors from the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority have begun an investigation at the AIB headquarters in Ballsbridge, Dublin.

They are carrying out a detailed inquiry into the overcharging of foreign exchange customers.

Details of how the bank calculated the excess revenue of €14 million and how it will identify customers affected will be sought as part of the process.

Advertisement

 

IFSRA has also confirmed that it has written to other financial institutions requesting them to verify that the charges they apply to customers are within the maximum levels notified to the regulator.

Meanwhile, Sinn Féin Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin, a member of the Oireachtas Finance and Public Service Committee, said he had written to its chairperson to ask that representatives of AIB be recalled before the committee on the overcharging issue.

Speaking on RTÉ Radio, Deputy John McGuinness, another member of the committee, said if the bank could not identify from which customers some money had come, then that money should be paid to the State.

Earlier, Tánaiste Mary Harney added her voice to concerns over the failure of the AIB bank to act quickly to rectify the error.

Ms Harney said the onus was now on AIB to identify the customers who were overcharged.

Union expresses disappointment

Earlier, the union that represents banking staff, the IBOA, said it was disappointed at what it called AIB's attempt to blame junior staff for the overcharging.

The union's General Secretary, Larry Broderick, said the revelation would be viewed by many as another damning indictment of the Irish banking industry, and he called for an independent investigation.

Software problem

The Managing Director of AIB, Donal Forde, said that executives at the bank had never been briefed on the software problem that caused the overcharging.

Mr Forde said that the problem was known about at a departmental level two and a half years ago and a report was being prepared. However, Mr Forde said that AIB's executive management team had not been alerted until Tuesday. He said that it was regrettable that there had been such a delay.

Mr Forde said the excessive rate was applied from 1995, and was in line with that charged by the bank's competitors, but AIB now accepted that it was illegal.

 

printable version

send to a friend

 

Audio & Video

• News At One: Larry Broderick, General Secretary of the Irish

[bally35]

National Irish Bank admits they overcharged

 

Auditors find weaknesses in internal control

 

by Kyran Fitzgerald

National Irish Bank have admitted overcharging customers in a report following a three-month investigation by the bank's auditors, which also supports suspicions of tax evasion.

Internal auditors carried out the investigation for its parent company, National Australia Bank, into the sale and marketing of investment products in association with the Isle of Man-based group, CMI.

In what amounts to an important climbdown, Graham Savage, the chief executive of National Irish Bank and Northern Bank, said the team of auditors found weaknesses in internal controls in the bank at the time of the launch of the CMI products in 1991.

He added that in a significant minority of cases the auditors could not decide from the documents available the priority of the transactions. However, Mr Savage stood by the bank's insistence it had not acted with an ulterior motive. Financial experts say Mr Savage has conceded that investments in CMI products could have involved tax evasion. A total of £33m was invested in CMI Personal Portfolio products, and the bank charged heavy commission for this service.

The affair is now the subject of investigations by the Central Bank, the Revenue Commissioners, the Department of Enterprise and Employment and two High Court appointed Inspectors.

Mr Savage said the bank failed to achieve the operational standards it would have wished and it could have managed the marketing of its product better. He criticised the lack of proper brochure material, but said the bank's only intention was to market an investment product and not with the aim of helping customers evade tax. The bank had an established relationship with CMI; all the necessary documents had been completed and there was no evidence of fictitious names and addresses. However, he admitted in some cases the propriety of the transactions had not been established.

"The bank does not shrink from its responsibility with respect to this product. It recognises that even one account which causes concern is one account too many. Its own internal investigation remains open while this process is continuing," he said. Mr Savage did not indicate whether CMI/NIB customers would be compensated where there was any evidence of overcharging.

A statement containing the bank's response to the wider controversy of overcharging of ordinary National Irish Bank customers would be made in due course.

Mr Savage declined to indicate whether any sanctions would be taken against bank executives working in the bank at the time the CMI products were launched.

"A lot of investigations are still ongoing. Should any issues arise they will be dealt with through the bank's normal procedures," he said.

A spokesman added that it had still to be established that the bank had grounds to act against anybody.

[McIavelli]

Fascinating thread. Subscribing

[Mistermind]

bally35, I always say Dublin because most people in UK would struggle to name a second city in Eire.

 

I visited Dublin once via Ryanair and found it a most charming and optimistic place. Judging by the humane penalty charge a most civilized place.

[bally35]

Was not having a go , but cannot believe that most people on Cag would not be that knowledgeable.

Ah did you like so many others (friends of Mr Bally) ask if a passport was needed (true story).

[Mistermind]

Yes I did check if P/P was necessary.

This would be a mental legacy left behind by decades of The Troubles. I would not have liked to have been confronted with questions while I carried no official ID on me.

 

During the dark years I was told that any brit who got off the plane in Belfast was stared at by Special Branch heavies on the tarmac scanning for faces. No doubt all visitors would have been logged on MI5 computer as having been there.

 

When I visited Dublin on a spring day I saw optimistic young faces confident of the future, and spending in the shops. I never found out why until now -- they only paid £3 penalty

[bally35]

Hmm , I think that the British public and the world at large were fed a lot of bull by the media and the government during "the troubles"

When I lived in England no-one could belive that we were in a "mixed relationship", that ordinary people went about ordinary lives, our schools best in UK.

They couldnt believe that in the majority , we lived happily alongside one another, that we had friends, relatives and marriages of differing religious perspectives.

Everyone, I met had an opinion on Northern Ireland, and yet none had visited (Honestly, one of the most beautiful places on Gods Green earth).

Don't forget that the government had to justify why the nations young men and women were being murdered in what should have been a United Nation Peace Keeping Role.

Of course the people in Dublin are optimistic (partly to do with Celtic Tiger).

Since 1998,(when "peace "broke out) the number of Mainland tourists visiting Northern Ireland has increased and most have been charmed by Northern Ireland and its people.

In my small seaside village, we are overwhelmed with people from Uk having second homes or moving here permanently.

 

We still have very cr*ap banks though.lol

[Mistermind]

Our cr*p banks can beat your cr*p banks.

[bally35]

I think that its enough that they are all cr*p .I think i ahve had enough of volence this morning (kicked my desk, when it tried to murder me again) lol