GOT A COURT DATE? Important, please read......

[photoman]

As far as I am concerned, even if they do honour a payment and charge you for doing so, the additional charge is still a penalty.

In such a case they would not be charging the usual returned item "fee", as the item has not been returned, instead they would charge you for an exceeded borrowing level.

It is applied to your account as a result of exceeding a limit, and exists purely "in terrorem" to dissuade you from such breaches.

In Lloyds case certainly, any "service" argument is nonsense, and easily dispelled by the very wording itself of the charge applied "unauthorised borrowing fee"...... this clearly requires something of an "unauthorised" nature to have happened, ie, a breach of contract.

Had it been termed as an "overdraft review fee" or "overdraft extension fee" or something such like, they may have maybe had a stronger argument (although the Sale of Goods act would say otherwise).

The banks are actively changing the terminology now in light of current actions, and this may make it harder to prove the "penal" nature of the charge in future....... however this now smacks of concealment, and such acts bring into play the revocation of any protection under statute of limitations.

[Pen]

PM I could'nt agree more, no matter what way they do it, the fee they apply still amounts to a penalty.

 

thanks for the click by the way.

[Mistermind]

Pen, a fair point, base on specific DDs. I understand

 

(A) You want the council DD paid -- it would have been a benefit and service to go overdrawn rather than bounce back to the council triggering a horrendous council penalty.

 

(B) You did not want the Lloyds inhouse DD paid -- a benefit to the bank but NOT a benefit to you. With two benefits in head-on conflict, not sure if your signed loan contract legally took precedence. The bank COULD have exercised manual discretion and micro-managed. Alas, in recent years the human link between customer and branch have been fatally weakened. Agreed, in this case honouring the DD had not been a benefit, but you were charges as if it had been a benefit. The pragmatic question would be, how many instances of A would there be, for one instance of B? I gather there are forms to fill in which could have instructed the bank "hands off my subsistence money in the account" -- resulting in a preferred bounce rather than payment of a pinpointed DD.

 

In a recent template letter earlier on this thread Lloyds suggested that if or when your bad D/D arrives, they read it as an (implicit) request for a new or increased overdraft. Reading between the lines I understand Lloyds to say, if the request is approved then the charge is a service fee. If refused with no benefit to the customer, then the bounce charge is a penalty charge.

 

An implicit request for overdraft would be totally out of the question on 3 types of Lloyds accounts mentioned in T&C where overdraft facilities are totally and explicitly out of the question. One of these types is an Islamic account, where the customer is forbidden by religious shariah law to borrow or lend money with interest.

 

Excluding these 3 types of account where lender-borrower service is ruled out from beginning to end, a grey area arises on other accounts. I suggest a customer could if he wished, clarify the grey area. He could instruct the bank "Under no circumstances pay my bad cheques and DD's. I never wish to borrow from the bank." After which the concept of lending service and service fee could not possibly be justified.

 

Obviously every case would be different. Honouring a £20 DD where the account is 13 pence short would be different to honouring a £200 cheque where the customer has balance zero and a short history with the bank. Swings and roundabouts further adding to the greyness of the area - one size will never fit all, only King Solomon can find the best judgment in every case.

 

Merely pointing out the far from improbable arguments Lloyds could put up in court on general principle. Whether the judge will rule on charges according to a general principle, or rule on each invidual charge according to is unclear. The BBC estimated 1 million claimants waiting in the wings.

 

GL with your claim.

[mgp]

Hi M

Thank you for your thoughts and the info on how to word the letter. I am only at the beginning of this and feel I have spent hours on this claim already..... was always going to be the case I suppose.........

Mandy

 

just one other thing what does the abbreviation SC&M mean, have looked at the abbreviation thread but no joy

[Mistermind]

S C & M are Lloyds solicitors firm with 3 names which nobody can pronounce or remember, but easily remembered as SC*M.

 

Perhaps if you start a spreadsheet on how you will spend your winnings, it will take your mind off the mind-numbing legalese.

 

Hopefully the pen is mightier than the wig.

 

X

[leo011105]

hi, can anyone tell me whats needed in the court bundle please.

I cant seem to get it from the unzipped document on the first thread.

Thanks.

[Pen]

Hi leo, everything you need for claiming back chargers or anything else for that matter is here Can't Find What You're Looking For? Here's A Complete A-z Index. hope this helps. good luck.

 

MM, how many instances of A would there be, for one instance of B? I gather there are forms to fill in which could have instructed the bank "hands off my subsistence money in the account"

There was a lot more of "B" then "A" and yes I agree there is a letter template for what you suggest but I don't think this was widely known to the general public until this site was formed, well not to me at least. but I take on board what your saying. unfortunately i don't think this PEN is mightier then the WIG so to speak.

[elsinore]

S C & M are Lloyds solicitors firm with 3 names which nobody can pronounce or remember, but easily remembered as SC*M.

 

Sechiari Clark & Mitchell, sometimes derogatively referred to as the Ice Cream Men.

 

Els

[Mistermind]

It's where you can get the lolly.

[elsinore]

:lol:

 

Els

[Mistermind]

Pen,

 

Not to think I approve of banks' legal claim to service charge without the heart and reality of service. Over the past 20 years banks took an axe to prune branch staff, and the few who remain are all pushing mortgages, insurance and credit cards on commission.

 

The branch manager and assistant who used to know customers and glance through their incoming cheques each morning, now hardly knows any except the richest. In case of D/D problems such as yours, nowadays ringing the impersonal nameless Service Centre only leads to a wild goose chase. Flexible human contact and informal tolerance has gone out the window, all in the name of efficiency and profit.

 

Even as bank costs were driven down over the years, penalty charges skyrocketed. Dublin charges stand at £3. Aussie bank charges have been audited by the Federal Government as costing £2 while banks charge £15 -- bad, but our £39 charge is worse. Comparisons across space and time are being sought on another thread, with results beginning to come in.

 

It would be hard to prove in court that a £35 service fee is unreasonable because this happens to be the market price, notwithstanding so-called supply and demand in a "free" market. It would be necessary to step further out in space and time for a bigger picture on the historical price anomaly under which we live, for now.

 

Maybe one day a story of this movement will be written in plain English, proving that the Pen is mightier than the Wig, a story called perhaps

 

Harry Potter Fills in N1?

 

[mickj2904]

Internet Archive Wayback Machine

 

Is the wayback archive for T&C going back to 1998 though I cannot for some reason get into it through a javascript error

[maxey]

I have just received a letter from the court saying Lloyds will fight my case (I'm only claiming £603 for God's sake!) and have until 9th June before their 14 days are up. Help?? Should I be doing anything else? I am really panicked at the idea of having to go to court, can I send a representative if it comes to it?

[mgp]

Mistermind

 

Decision

 

Still trawling through the threads but have found out the court received my file on Friday, and it will now be put before the judge to decide if an AQ is required. I feel I have to do something now before it is to late.

 

I have decided to sent a schedule to the banks solicitors telling them that in view of their defence I shall be deleting the extra months from the claim. I shall of course send a copy of this plus a copy of the covering letter to the court.

 

As I have not sent any schedule to the court at all I imagine I would have to send the original scedule plus the updated version (with covering letter) as otherwise I feel confusion may set in.

 

May also send a nudge letter to the solicitors anyway.

 

How does that sound to you?

 

Thanks for your help to date , as you know had a wobble at the weekend and thought I would not be able to go through with any of it.

[mickj2904]

Hi Maxey

 

I was in the same scenario. I had thought they might just give up and pay but it looks like we have to do a little work to ensure you are successful if it goes to court. Firstly for £603 I think you might find they will still pay before as I had to pay a £100 fee to the court which I get back if/when I win. Can you imagine them actually wanting a further £100 added onto their bill? Of course they may be swamped and let it ride into court but I have put my bundle together, it has taken a while but I think that once they get it, it might not still get to court. However, with Llloydstsb I was told on a majority of the occasions they don't turn up. Do you think they would want to pay solicitors costs for £603? Anyway if you are really concerned there will be a link for a no win no fee solicitor on here I'm sure. If I can help just email me.

[Mistermind]

Mandy, replied by PM in technicolour though not x-rated. All the best.

 

 

Maxey, after the Kevin defeat Lloyds continued to settle, possibly at the same pace as before. Try search threads started by IrishRose, who was so happy to be paid post-Kevin, without fuss or threats. MoneySavingExpert counted 24 smooth Lloyds settlement offers post-Kevin.

 

Looks like Lloyds are selecting their targets, and based on past record this may not be a hollow threat. I suggest that in addition to loss of sum reclaimed, the third person defeated in court could lose his privacy, as Kevin did, and Mr Rudd less so. But far be it from me to say you are at risk, but forewarned is forearmed.

 

What are the similarities between your reclaims and Kevin's, what are the differences? Why did Lloyds pick on you but quietly settle others? What different charge descriptions are you reclaiming? What new evidence and arguments have you prepared, to win where Kevin lost?

[Pen]

mpg, glad you have worked out the way forward.

good luck

[glassalan]

Hi guys,

This is my first post,

Can someone tell me what a Notice of Disposal is as I just got one today,I am assuming its just allocating a court date prior to directions.

It just says 10 minutes has been allowed for the disposal 29 August at 12 noon Peterborough County Court,

Help appreciated,

Alan

[London1978]

COURT DATE!!! HELP PLEASE!! Links on here do not explain as far as I can see.

I have just recieved the following in the post and need advice ASAP as date is almost here.......

 

Take Notice that the hearing will take place on 21 June 2007 at 12:00pm at Huntingdon County court.

 

When you should attend

 

10 MINUTES has been allowed for the hearing.

 

There is no request for any bundle or information by any specific time...What on earth am I supposed to do? I have printed off the bundles to post to the court and Lloyds Solicitors...but should I send them? and why is there no directions as to what I need and when to send it by? Just one piece of paper arrived with those BASIC instructions as to when I need to be there and for how long. Would appreciate any help...am sure others MUST be in the same boat as me!

[elsinore]

and why is there no directions as to what I need and when to send it by? Just one piece of paper arrived with those BASIC instructions as to when I need to be there and for how long.

 

With only 10 minutes allowed for the hearing, it could be an allocation or directions hearing.

 

Give the court a call and ask them to clarify what sort of hearing it is.

 

The court offices are snowed under with claims, which leads one to suspect that they are taking short cuts and skimping on information.

 

Els

[London1978]

Thanks Els.....

 

Called the court today and they said it would be a brief hearing for the judge to give directions.

 

In light of the fact Lloyds are not going to turn up...am I finally at the last post or is there more delay tactics to draw this out forever and a day?

 

Should I post out the bundles to Lloyds and the court prior to this date or is this just more waiting? I thought this might be the point that they would pay up the £3k I have chased for months on end...

 

Would really appreciate advise on how to proceed from any members.

[GaryH]

See the first part of this thread -

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/guidance-notes/64911-got-court-date-guide.html

 

You will probably find they pay beforehand, but prepare to go anyway just in case. You don't need a full bundle or anything like that. Just propose some directions, etc.

[GaryH]

No Mandy, I said the opposite.

 

If they bounced your DD without paying it (Type 1), they were PENALISING you, they offered you no benefit, did you no service, so no justification of a "service charge". In which case this pure penalty charge is good for reclaim, and they will not fight it so far as I understand.

 

If they honoured your DD when you had no money to pay it (Type 2), then I myself cannot put up a convincing argument why Lloyds had not done you a favour, a benefit, a service, deserving of a service fee. Alright to try claim these when Lloyds did not fight it up till April. But after Kevin it looks as if Lloyds made a policy change. Lloyds have continued to settle many cases before court, but I suspect mostly type 1 reclaims. Without a central info clearing house on CAG it is very difficult to keep up with rapidly devloping events, to confirm if these continuing settlements were all Type 1.

 

If you only want to reclaim type 1, by all means go ahead with flag flying and drum beating. It is your money and they owe you. But most certainly you will need to identify the reason for every charge, and make full statements available, certainly if you get to court, which I doubt.

 

GL xx

 

 

Apologies MM, I know I've already done this once today elsewhere but I've got to address this for the benefit of anyone else who's read it on this thread.

 

There is no difference between "type 1" and "type 2" charges. They are both equally open to challenge as penalty clauses, and are both equally as reclaimable.

 

In fact if anything it would be easier to establish "type 2" as arising from a breach of contract than "type 1". For a more detailed explaination of exactly why I believe this is see here -

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/show-post/post-883751.html

 

Lloyds have not changed policy since the Berwick judgement. They are continuing, exactly as before, to pay claims in full shortly in advance of the court date. In fact if anything they are paying slightly sooner. Until a month or two ago, roughly 3 to 4 claims per week would be allowed to reach court without them turning up. In the last month I'm only aware of 3 cases where this has happened.

 

Its very much business as usual - and there is certainly no need to go splitting claims. Prepare properly and there is nothing whatsoever to worry about.

[London1978]

Gary, I appreciate the help..I'm sure you and others have to answer the same questions on here over and over again. In light of this I intend to contribute to this site upon settlement as a sign of my deep gratitude for members assistance...but my apologies for the following...

 

In the first part of this thread you suggest a number of things to bring...however, the list appears under the headings 'Allocation hearings' AND 'Direction hearings'. The list is combined and although helpful I am a little confused as it covers both hearings and is mixed together. I would be very grateful if you could let me know precisely what I need for my 'Direction Hearing', as I am lacking confidence in regards to the legal side.

 

Also would it speed up a settlement if I was to send any of the items I intend to take to court over to Lloyds solicitors...seeing I intend to show up loaded with legal knowledge/information could this finally make them pay up?

 

Many Thanks.

[GaryH]

Has the claim been allocated already? In other words does it mention a track on the notice of directions hearing?

 

If it does then allocation won't be an issue, if not then it'll most likely be decided at the directions hearing.

 

They are lumped together in the guide becouse there is no real difference between them alot of the time, it just depends on what the particular court choses to call it. Its just a short hearing to decide how the claim is to proceed. As its a directions hearing, the main issue will obviously be directions, so in that regard you need to take the draft order and propose it to the judge stating the reason you think the directions should be ordered.

 

I appreciate your nervous but everything you need is provided within the link. Remember its not the final hearing - nothing can be "won" or "lost".