GOT A COURT DATE? Important, please read......

[tina9776]

Although Lloyds TSB settled and put the money in my account the court case went ahead because they left notifying me until the last minute and when I rang the courts to check that they had received my letter telling them of the settlement they hadn't.

A number of items of information came out of this.

1/ There was a representative there from SCand M (not for my case which they presumed was not going ahead but for others). he told me that Lloyds were not going to make any more payments until after the test case.

2/ SC and M were turning up at court to request stays on all cases. By the smile on face as he came out from seeing the judge I guess he was successful on the day.

3/ If they were not granted a stay and the decision went against Lloyds they intended to appeal after the test case.

4/ I asked the judge to consider awarding costs for my time etc as Lloyds had never submitted a bundle and their letter of settlement was dated 23rd July - the date by which their papers should have been submitted therefore they clearly had no intention of defending

5/ The judge was not convinced that Lloyds had acted unreasonably. He mentioned the test case more than once and I suspect that he did not want make any controversial decision while that was pending.

6/ I felt that he was also taking into account the fact that LLoyds had settled. He did check that their payment had included court fees which I felt he would have awarded if necessary.

That's very interesting and also rather depressing! Lloyds were due to respond to my schedule to the court by yesterday, 8th August. As they had not I sent a letter to the County Court, copied to SC&M, requesting that their defence be struck out and judgement made in my favour as they had not complied with the order. What I find really annoying is that if they are going to turn up at each court case and request a stay, they could do this by writing to each court regarding each case. My guess is they know that we will be nervous at the thought of going to court, spend a sleepless night the night before going over and over our case and then get there to find they're requesting a stay.

Could someone advise as to whether they are definitely not settling any more cases and should I ring my local court and tell them that this is what SC&M are saying and in doing so maybe the judge will strike out and rule in my favour as surely this is an abuse of the judicial system?

Grateful for any input as REALLY DON'T WANT TO GO TO COURT - SCARED!

[jdaraf]

Tina,

 

You have done exactly what you need to.

 

Await the decision by the judge on your request to strike out the defendant's case.

 

If you contact the Court they will not advise you as they are not allowed and the judge will only listen to case arguements. You can point out to him the defendant's behaviour when you go to Court.

 

Going to County Court is like going to the Headmaster's office when you were at school nothing more daunting than that. The judges have a duty to protect you during the case if you do not have legal representation, and if you are prepared as advised by other cases and the information on this site you will be fine. just be polite and write down what you want to say and read off it as a script. This is what most people do.

 

There is no need to worry about the Court appearance that is what the defendant's hope you do so you will not proceed with a court case.

 

Be strong and wait for the judges decsion.

 

Best wishes

JDARAF

[kfdh1962]

3/ If they were not granted a stay and the decision went against Lloyds they intended to appeal after the test case.

 

so have they already decided the outcome of the test case will go in their favour? or are they saying if it doesnt then they will appeal which will delay everything for even longer??

[mickj2904]

In court tomorrow 10.00am. The North Shields County Court only today recieved a letter asking for a stay. [problem] haven't sent me their bundle. I have recorded letters asking for their bundle before the court date and dates of telephone calls. [problem] said they are NOT going to send the bundle buy its now only 23 hours away and well out of time.The court have said I have to attend and the Judge will make a decision. I will put to the court that there is no defence so how can they ask for a stay! Am I correct. Also it appears [problem] have become sloppy with regards to Bundles with a few. Is there a chance of a precedence here if the Judge rules in my favour for others who have not recieved their bundles from [problem]?

[mickj2904]

Just came off the phone from Lloydstsb and they have contacted [problem] apparently from the 27th July the OFT and the Banks had as we know come to an agreement regarding submitting papers to the court and therefore are not submitting anything. Surely this flys in the face of fairness. My case has been allocated court since April/May I submitted my bundle to [problem] in June. How come [problem] and the OFT can decide on a change in the court direction by themselves without consulting the other party? OFT in my opinion have sold us out! surely I have a great arguement as [problem] have basically ignored all the guidelines

[mickj2904]

Just a further update just spoken to OFT who basically have now produced robots to repeat paragraph after paragraph of an obviously scripted response to anything and everything including what did you have for lunch " On the 25th July blah, blah, blah" Yeah I know but I only asked what did you have for lunch reply "on the 25th July blah,blah,blah".

 

The bottom line is that the OFT have washed their hands of all this until Jan 2008 where they expect the test case to last 8 days. I rang the FSA and they were much better but although I said BEFORE the 25th July we had a court direction and the FSA, OFT and Banks have decided to come to a cartel of an arrangement regarding the Unfair Charges. I said [problem] have not put in a defence until today 23 hours before the court case therefore a letter of stay is relevent why? What are they defending they have put nothing in to defend!

 

Anyone got any suggestions for tomorrow?

[Johnsworld]

Hi Mick,

 

I'm a bit confused so forgive me I I've misunderstood. I found out at my final hearing that the bank doesn't have to submit a bundle. I presume they filed a defence right at the start and that is all they will be able to rely on at trial. I tried arguing failure to comply but while the judge asked the banks defence why they had not submitted a bundle it didn't have any bearing on the outcome.

 

Barclays won a stay against me.

 

With hindsight I'd use the failure to submit a bundle to show the judge a history of non-compliance and failures to defend in court. I'd try to show the judge how many were settled out of court and that the banks are abusing the court process to bully and intimidate claimants into giving up.

 

Good luck,

John.

[mickj2904]

Hi Mick,

 

I'm a bit confused so forgive me I I've misunderstood. I found out at my final hearing that the bank doesn't have to submit a bundle. I presume they filed a defence right at the start and that is all they will be able to rely on at trial. I tried arguing failure to comply but while the judge asked the banks defence why they had not submitted a bundle it didn't have any bearing on the outcome.

 

Barclays won a stay against me.

 

With hindsight I'd use the failure to submit a bundle to show the judge a history of non-compliance and failures to defend in court. I'd try to show the judge how many were settled out of court and that the banks are abusing the court process to bully and intimidate claimants into giving up.

 

Good luck,

John.

 

 

Hi John

 

Thanks for your reply I thought this forum had died! I think on some court directions the court has asked for both parties to submit to court whilst mine said to submit to each other and at court. Though you might be right as it appears one law for them and another for us. I will try to show the court what you suggest. Thank you for that

 

Regards

 

Mick J

[elsinore]

 

Anyone got any suggestions for tomorrow?

 

Say to the judge all that you have said in your last three posts.

 

Els

[Johnsworld]

Mick,

 

My directions said the same as yours. To each other and the court by May 18th? Despite writing twice the bank never responded and did not comply. My case was last week and they still hadn't. Their defence tried to say that it was because the bank anticipated a stay (clairvoyant obviously). Depiter that the Judge didn't give it much creedence.

 

So it seems you have the same argument and other Judges have upheld it but mine didn't. That's why I think you need to pitch a bit harder. Argue failure to comply but add the bit about taking advantage of the court to bolster your defence.

 

I didn't say in my previous posting, but if you meet the defence before the hearing DON'T discuss the case and don't give them anything before you get in there. They will try and intimidate you if they get a chance and tell you you have to give them copies of you evidence, that you won't be qualified to argue the leagal complexities etc.. That's what they did to me and I let them see my stuff just as we went in but I wouldn't next time. They smile at you but the knife is behind their back!

 

In you favour is the fact that the defence advocate isn't prepared or briefed to defend non-compliance. Mine was a freelance and her instructions from the bank were only to seek a stay so you have a good chance of catching their defence off guard.

 

Good luck. Let's know what happens,

John

[sammybell]

I have sent a court bundle off without a witness statement - received an email from Gary with court bundle list and witness statement info and once read through relaised that it should have been sent in. Unfortunately had already sent my bundle off before I received Garys good advice. Does anyone know what will happen now and will it make a difference. I wasn't asked for it from the judge, but realise that I should have known?

[mickj2904]

Mick,

 

My directions said the same as yours. To each other and the court by May 18th? Despite writing twice the bank never responded and did not comply. My case was last week and they still hadn't. Their defence tried to say that it was because the bank anticipated a stay (clairvoyant obviously). Depiter that the Judge didn't give it much creedence.

 

So it seems you have the same argument and other Judges have upheld it but mine didn't. That's why I think you need to pitch a bit harder. Argue failure to comply but add the bit about taking advantage of the court to bolster your defence.

 

I didn't say in my previous posting, but if you meet the defence before the hearing DON'T discuss the case and don't give them anything before you get in there. They will try and intimidate you if they get a chance and tell you you have to give them copies of you evidence, that you won't be qualified to argue the leagal complexities etc.. That's what they did to me and I let them see my stuff just as we went in but I wouldn't next time. They smile at you but the knife is behind their back!

 

In you favour is the fact that the defence advocate isn't prepared or briefed to defend non-compliance. Mine was a freelance and her instructions from the bank were only to seek a stay so you have a good chance of catching their defence off guard.

 

Good luck. Let's know what happens,

John

 

Hi Elsinore and Johnsworld

 

I will tell them Elsinore and hopefully something will happen. Johnsworld thank you for your advice, as a bit of "luck" if I can call it that, in the way of a letter from Lloydstsb telling me that I was £400 overdrawn and had to pay by the 28th August 2007 or further action would take place. The £400 was for bank charges and I'm going to say to the Judge it once again appears that a stay only works one way. How can they ask for a stay AND claim back charges threatening legal action? Surely it works both ways?

 

Regards

 

Mick J

[JGJ]

Good luck for to-morrow John - I'am also at North Shields in Oct.

My directions state :

1. The parties must file at Court and serve on the other party not later than 14 days before the hearing.

 

a) Copies of all documents upon which they wish to rely.

b. Statements of all witnesses, including the parties upon whose evidence you wish to rely. The statements shall be typed, dated and signed by the witness and state he/she believe that the facts stated in the witness statement are true.

 

2. All original documents must be brought to the hearing.

 

3. Parties should note that if they do not file and serve documents and statements as set out above, the Court may decide not to admit the evidence of the party in default.

SO IF YOURS STATES AS 3. YOU SHOULD WIN BY DEFALT.

mine also states this case has been listed in the Back to Back list.

so lots of us to-gether against banks.

GOOD LUCK LET'S here how you get on

[Johnsworld]

Sammy, I put my witness statement in court bundle but not bank's copy. I told the court office on the last day to submit and they said no problem, just send it to bank. Try ringing court. I reckon you'll be able to slip it in.

[Johnsworld]

JGJ,

Don't bet on it. Alll it means is bank doesn't submit bundle, bank only has basic defence to rely on. It's not likely to be thrown out. Some people have won by default but not many.

[JGJ]

If thats the case John - why have we got to submit court bundle - Why

not just :

 

1. Witness statement

2. Correspondence

3. Schedule of charges

4. statement sheets

T & C

I hope every thing goes ok tomorrow ( or should i say to-day ) Has your's been listed in a Back to Back Hearing - i hope they don't grant stays

GOOD LUCK

[mickj2904]

If thats the case John - why have we got to submit court bundle - Why

not just :

 

1. Witness statement

2. Correspondence

3. Schedule of charges

4. statement sheets

T & C

I hope every thing goes ok tomorrow ( or should i say to-day ) Has your's been listed in a Back to Back Hearing - i hope they don't grant stays

GOOD LUCK

 

Hi JGJ

 

It was me at North Shields County Court and just got back. Can you believe for my case and my case only they sent a Barrister from the South West!!!! It must have cost them about £4K for her to attend my claim of £6K. Basically as I said LLoydstsb had not submitted their bundle and to be fair and honest it made not a jot! I stated that I as an individual had complied and as a group of solicitors and now a Barrister they couldn't produce what the court wanted I even stated that I had to go to the Information Commissioner because they didn't comply with the 40 ruling on freedom of information. I'd be lieing if I said that made a difference. The bottom line it was decided before I got there and a waste of time. I had the option to reply to a request to agree to the stay and whilst I would suggest you don't agree it really is in my experience pointless attending the court as its basically a procession and a result already decided. I'm not saying DONT go of course just merely that if you get a letter by [problem] asking for you to agree to the stay weigh up if you can afford to lose time off work etc for a decision already made.

 

Sorry for appearing to be so negative but just giving you the reality!

[JGJ]

Mick, what was the name of the "JUDGE" and could you post a few brief details of how the SC@M rep defended the indefensible to sway the Judges opinion towards the stay, also how long for the stay? Keep on Keeping on as we say!!!

[mickj2904]

Mick, what was the name of the "JUDGE" and could you post a few brief details of how the SC@M rep defended the indefensible to sway the Judges opinion towards the stay, also how long for the stay? Keep on Keeping on as we say!!!

 

 

Hi JGJ

 

The "rep" was actually a Barrister and having had Barristers myself they are about £1000 - £2500 per hour, this one travelled from the South West and had a slight Bristol accent and only came up for my hearing! The Judge is irrelevent though mine was Mathaui or something like that because the facts are that OFT and FSA have basically sold us down the river. Of course the test case has to go ahead but why should the banks be offered a stay and why was not the CAG or another body not included in the talks? Though one point I said I was refusing to pay a loan with the bank because in effect failure for me to pay would result in a default and as the case was to take place it could be that I have a refund from the account I have the loan with. Which basically the Judge agreed with. JGJ in all honesty the cases including yours are now a matter of paperwork and following red tape. Yours like all others will be stayed until Jan 2008 no matter what anyone tells you. People talk about maverick Judges well to be honest they have all been told to accept the stay.

 

Regards

 

Mick

[Johnsworld]

JGJ,

The onus is on you to prove your case and that is why you need a bundle. If the bank are confident in their initial defence, or that your case is rubbish, more likely they never intended to argue in court, they don't HAVE to submit anything. I thought as you do but it isn't the case. Some people were lucky I guess and maybe their Judge decided the bank were taking the pee. You can still overturn the application for a stay though and as I've said they can be wrong-footed. Hit them with the failure to comply just as a starter.

[malcdal]

Have just spoken to Newbury Crown Court and been informed hearing will go ahead next Wednesday August 22nd at 12.00pm as planned. Although the court is aware SC&M are intending to request a stay they have not yet received a request and the Judge will make a decision on the day.

[GaryH]

Hi JGJ

 

The "rep" was actually a Barrister and having had Barristers myself they are about £1000 - £2500 per hour, this one travelled from the South West and had a slight Bristol accent and only came up for my hearing! The Judge is irrelevent though mine was Mathaui or something like that because the facts are that OFT and FSA have basically sold us down the river. Of course the test case has to go ahead but why should the banks be offered a stay and why was not the CAG or another body not included in the talks? Though one point I said I was refusing to pay a loan with the bank because in effect failure for me to pay would result in a default and as the case was to take place it could be that I have a refund from the account I have the loan with. Which basically the Judge agreed with. JGJ in all honesty the cases including yours are now a matter of paperwork and following red tape. Yours like all others will be stayed until Jan 2008 no matter what anyone tells you. People talk about maverick Judges well to be honest they have all been told to accept the stay.

 

Regards

 

Mick

Its unfortunate that you had the experiance that you did, although its certainly not a foregone conclusion that every judge will be the same as the one you encountered. We think its about 50/50 between those ordering stays and those not, and thankfully for every outcome like the one you describe theres another like this -

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/lloyds-bank/87236-ollie-lloyds-3.html?highlight=olliebollie#post1070097

JGJ,

The onus is on you to prove your case and that is why you need a bundle. If the bank are confident in their initial defence, or that your case is rubbish, more likely they never intended to argue in court, they don't HAVE to submit anything. I thought as you do but it isn't the case. Some people were lucky I guess and maybe their Judge decided the bank were taking the pee. You can still overturn the application for a stay though and as I've said they can be wrong-footed. Hit them with the failure to comply just as a starter.

Depends on the directions - small claims track standard directions then yes, they don't have to submit documents if they don't intend to rely on any at the hearing. If its been ordered that they must submit a certain document(s), such as a disclosure, and they don't then you can ask for a strike out.

[Johnsworld]

Thanks for the explanation about directions Gary. I lost my objection to stay but I'm sure it will be helpful to people with cases pending.

 

Kind regards,

John.

[JGJ]

Its unfortunate that you had the experiance that you did, although its certainly not a foregone conclusion that every judge will be the same as the one you encountered. We think its about 50/50 between those ordering stays and those not, and thankfully for every outcome like the one you describe theres another like this -

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/lloyds-bank/87236-ollie-lloyds-3.html?highlight=olliebollie#post1070097

 

Depends on the directions - small claims track standard directions then yes, they don't have to submit documents if they don't intend to rely on any at the hearing. If its been ordered that they must submit a certain document(s), such as a disclosure, and they don't then you can ask for a strike out.

Hi GARY also JOHN

thanks for your posting i must admit after reading what happened to mick at North Shields today i was thinking about all the work I have to do for the bundle and it might all be a waste of time (but feel more positive now after (Ollie v LLoyds ) John sorry about your stay ( what direction did Gary give you ) also non compliance argument - I've prob. got them Gary did send the court bundle and witness statement Guidance Notes.

 

many thanks for your posting

[GaryH]

Mick's was at North Shields? Bizzare! Have a look at this -

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/barclays-bank/110863-sarahapples-barclays-16-8-a-2.html?highlight=sarahapples#post1082140