Gandolfi v NatWest

[GaryH]

Sorry!

 

First, what stage of the claim are you at. When did they file against you? Can you post exactly what you responded with please?

 

Sorry if its been covered previously, I will go back through the thread now but in the meantime it'd be good if you could give me a concise timeline with exactly what has happened so far including dates and where your at now.

[Celicaman]

All i can say is good luck Gandolfi.

Just found your thread and had a fleating run over it and again as in previous threads i have read and posted on, it goes to show what a [edit] the banks really are.

They have no morals, no compation and no remorse.

Keep up your fight, we may be silent but we are all behind you.

 

CM

[gandolfi]

All i can say is good luck Gandolfi.

Just found your thread and had a fleating run over it and again as in previous threads i have read and posted on, it goes to show what [edit] the banks really are.

They have no morals, no compation and no remorse.

Keep up your fight, we may be silent but we are all behind you.

 

CM

 

Thank you Celicaman. That means a lot. I'm not going to let them ruin my life. With the fantastic support that I've found here I'm determined to fight back!

 

I'm about to send a post with a full summary of events so far for Gary H to look over, but just wanted to welcome you here. Glad you are watching!

Gandolfi

[gandolfi]

Sorry!

 

First, what stage of the claim are you at. When did they file against you? Can you post exactly what you responded with please?

 

Sorry if its been covered previously, I will go back through the thread now but in the meantime it'd be good if you could give me a concise timeline with exactly what has happened so far including dates and where your at now.

 

Thanks GaryH for taking the time to help - I know you are incredibly busy. I really appreciate it!

 

The following is a full Timeline of what's happened so far, together with the two draft letters that I think will be the next step.

 

 

 

 

Gandolfi v Nat West: Timeline

 

1) 12th March - They filed a County Court claim for unpaid loan and business overdraft.

 

2) I acknowledged service within 14 days.

 

3) 11th April - I submitted the following defence and sent SAR to the bank. In a separate letter to the bank I requested that they hold action on my accounts for 28 days while I prepared my defence. They refused to do this.

 

 

MY DEFENCE STATEMENT (accompanied by copy of SAR letter sent to bank)

 

"I intend to defend this claim in full, including all outstanding debts on both of the accounts listed in the particulars of claim.

 

The debt is in dispute as I believe it contains unlawful penalty charges. Accumulated disproportionate penalty charges – which I believe to be unlawful – and the interest levied upon them throughout my relationship with Nat West are the very basis of my indebtedness to them. I intend to claim back all unlawfully applied charges and the interest levied upon them by the bank.

 

I now understand that the regime of penalties which Nat West have been applying to my accounts in relation to direct-debit refusals, exceeding overdraft limits and so forth are unlawful at Common Law and contrary to statute. Penalty charges are irrecoverable at common law. The precedent for this was Dunlop Pneumatic Tyre Co Ltd v. New Garage and Motor Co Ltd [1915] AC 79 along with Murray v. Leisure Play [2005] EWCA Civ 963. It was held that a contractual party can only recover damages for an actual loss or liquidated losses. It is clear that the penalties imposed on my accounts by Nat West do not reflect any actual or real loss.

 

I have written a Subject Access Request (Data Protection Act 1998) to Nat West (copy enclosed) asking for full disclosure of all transactions and charges, as well as evidence of manual intervention on my account. I have kept the majority of my bank statements and will therefore, in the meantime, calculate my claim for repayment of charges and interest (plus contractual interest for the bank's use of my money), on the basis of the information that is available to me.

 

It will be clear that were it not for the bank's disproportionate and unfair penalties on my accounts – persistently applied over many years – the debt for which they are claiming would not exist."

 

 

 

4) 13th April - The court sent me an Allocation Questionaire.

 

5) 30th April - I submitted the Allocation Questionaire to the court. In it, I requested that the case be transferred to a local court. I also requested a stay so that I could fully particularise my defence.

 

 

The AQ info statement was:

"I respectfully request further time to particularise my defence. I am currently awaiting a response from Natwest to my Subject Access Request Letter (10th April) for full information and disclosure regarding the charges applied to my accounts with them. This will allow me to submit accurate calculations of the charges and interest levied on my accounts by Natwest, which I believe to be unlawful. I intend to submit an amended defence and counterclaim in order to recover these charges and interest, which are in excess of the sums claimed by Natwest in this case. Detailed figures illustrating the nature of those charges will be submitted to the court at the earliest opportunity. If Natwest do not provide the information requested in my Subject Access Request, calculations will be submitted based on part-estimates of the sums in question."

 

6) 24th May - SAR deadline. Natwest have not complied with the SAR - just a few statements, totally inadequate.

 

7) 1st June - Spoke to Natwest to find out their current interest rates. They wanted to discuss the case - said they were 'having an argument with the court' about where my defence was (they haven't seen it because it has gone astray in the transfer to my local court). Asked me if I would send them a copy. I said I didn't want to discuss the case and that any requests should be made in writing.

 

8) Today. Because I am defending their claim I wasn't able to do the Prelim/LBA in the normal way. Therefore, the bank has not yet seen any figures regarding my intended counterclaim. Neither have they provided all the information I need to fully particularise my claim. I do however have the majority of my statements going back to 1991 and have prepared figures based on what is available to me (plus some fairly accurate estimates).

 

I am now at a stage where I have to decide whether I should send the following two letters together with spreadsheets to the bank. The first letter demands full disclosure of all information. The second requests full repayment of charges and interest. It is effectively a LBA (before submitting a counterclaim). I also need to know how to let the court know that this is happening. Do I just send copies?

 

The draft wording of the letters is as follows:

 

first letter

 

Gandolfi

xxxxxxxxxx

xxxxxxxxxx

xxxxxxxxxx

National Westminster Bank

xxxxxxxxxx

xxxxxxxxxxx

7th June 2007

Copy sent to Court

Re: Claim Number: xxxxxxxxx

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

I am writing with regard to the Court claim filed by your company against me on 12 March 2007. I filed a defence to the Court on 11th April 2007, stating that the amounts are now in dispute as I believed they were made up of unlawful bank charges. I subsequently requested more time to particularise my defence on the grounds that I was awaiting your response to my Data Protection/Subject Access Request letter (10th April), which asked for detailed information regarding my relationship with National Westminster Bank. A copy of this letter was supplied to the Court with my defence. I informed the Court that I wished to file an amended defence and issue a counterclaim as soon as this information was supplied.

 

As stated in my Subject Access Request letter, you were given 40 days in which to comply. The deadline for providing the requested information passed on 24th May. Despite my request for a complete list of charges and transactions relating to my banking history with your organisation – including the following accounts, xxxxxxxxxxxxx Business Current, xxxxxxxxxx Personal Current, xxxxxxxxxxxxx Business Loan – you have failed to supply the information required. Your response has been wholly inadequate and incomplete.

 

My Business Account was opened in 1989, yet you have only sent bank statements from 29/03/01 to 29/12/06. The Business Loan began in July 2001, yet you have only provided statements from 4/10/02 to 30/9/04. You have provided no information whatsoever regarding my Personal Current Account. Furthermore, you have made no response to my request for information or evidence regarding any manual intervention in relation to my banking history and have not disclosed any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention.

 

To enable me to file a fully particularised defence and counter-claim, I require specific information regarding these accounts to be provided forthwith. Given that this matter is now the subject of legal proceedings, you are obliged to disclose under the Civil Procedure Rules, the information and documents detailed below. This letter supercedes the Data Protection request made on 10th April 2007. The information must be furnished by the 19th June 2007, which gives you seven working days to provide what has been requested. If you fail to comply, this will be reported to the Court, a copy of this letter will be provided as evidence to the same and an order enforcing your compliance will be sought.

 

The following information is required:

1) I hereby request all data that National Westminster Bank hold on me from all relevant filing systems, to include a complete list of all transactions and charges on my accounts held or formerly held with National Westminster Bank. I also require a transcript of all recorded phone calls pertinent to these accounts and all notes made in relation to those calls.

 

2) Additionally, where there has been any event in my accounts' history which has required manual intervention by any member of National Westminster Bank, or any other person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my accounts held or formerly held with National Westminster Bank.

 

If you are unable to supply this data because there has been no such manual intervention, then please be so kind as to confirm this in your response.

 

3) I also require true copies of all original signed agreements between myself and National Westminster Bank.

 

4) Full Terms and Conditions and charges tariffs relating to each account, from the date when the accounts were opened and including any revisions or amendments to the present day.

 

5) Documents relating to any insurance added to the accounts, including the insurance contract and terms and conditions, date it was added and deleted.

 

6) A true copy of any Default Notice issued in respect of these accounts.

 

7) Specific details of the fees/charges levied by National Westminster Bank in respect of these accounts and a detailed breakdown of said fees/charges and what each charge relates to and on what date said fees/charges were levied.

 

I also enclose a letter that provides details of my intended counterclaim for unlawful charges and interest on those charges based on the bank statements that are currently available to me.

 

Please note that if you do not respond positively to my request for full disclosure of the information requested above by 19th June, I will proceed with an amended defence and counterclaim using the attached calculations without further delay.

 

I look forward to your co-operation in this matter. Additionally, as the information requested contains sensitive personal details, I expect it to be sent by guaranteed next day delivery, to ensure its safe arrival.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

Gandolfi

 

 

second letter

Gandolfi

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

xxxx

National Westminster Bank

xxxxxxx

xxxxxxxx

xxxxxxx

7th June 2007

Copy sent to Court

Re: Claim Number: xxxxxxxx

 

 

Request for repayment of charges

 

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

ACCOUNT NUMBERS: xxxxxxxxxxx Business Current, xxxxxxxxxxx Personal Current, xxxxxxxxxxxxx Business Loan

 

My request

Further to my enclosed letter requesting all information on my accounts' history with your organisation and in relation to your County Court claim (Ref: xxxxxxxxxx) I am writing to ask you to refund to me the charges which you have levied from my accounts over the last sixteen years, plus interest as shown in the enclosed documents.

 

I now understand that the regime of fees which you have been applying to my accounts in relation to direct debit refusals, exceeding overdraft limits and so forth are unlawful at Common Law, Statute and recent consumer regulations. The charges debited to the accounts are punitive in nature; are not a genuine pre-estimate of cost incurred by the bank; exceed any alleged actual loss to the bank in respect of any breaches of contract; and are not intended to represent or related to any alleged actual loss, but instead unduly enrich the bank which exercises the contractual term in respect of such charges with a view to profit. The precedent for this was Dunlop Pneumatic v New Garage [1915] AC 79.along with Murray v. Leisure play [2005] EWCA Civ 963.

 

If you say that this is not the case, then will you please demonstrate this by letting me have a full breakdown of the costs to which you have been put by as a result of my breaches, in order to reassure me that your penalties really do reflect your costs.

 

Additionally, it has now been confirmed that your particularly high level of penalties are considered to be unfair per se by the OFT who reported on the 5th April 2006 and are therefore presumed to be unlawful in the absence of specific proof to the contrary.

 

Your responsibilities

I would draw your attention to the terms of the contracts that you agreed to at the time that I opened my accounts. It is an implied term of those contracts that you would conduct yourselves lawfully and in a manner that complies with UK law.

 

I am frankly shocked that you have operated my account in this way as I had always reposed confidence in your integrity and expertise as the provider of my banking facilities.

 

I consider that your repeated representations that your charges are fair and reasonable are deceptive and that they have deceived me into agreeing to pay them. Your concealment of the true nature of your charges has prevented me from asserting my right until now.

 

What I require

I calculate that you have taken £XXXXX plus £XXX X which you have charged me in overdraft and loan interest for the sum which you have taken. Total £XXXXX .

I enclose a schedule of the charges that I am claiming with this letter.

 

In addition, I claim £XXXX interest on the amounts claimed using the same contractual rate that you have applied, and continue to apply, to the debt that has been caused by your unlawful charges. The grounds for claiming this rate are based in equity and a legal requirement for fairness. The monies that you have unlawfully taken from my accounts in respect of unfair charges, and the interest you have subsequently debited in relation to those charges, has been available to you throughout this period to re-lend at commercial rates, thus enabling you to profit unfairly from your actions. Furthermore, in contrast to the unjust enrichment resulting from your levying of unlawful charges, I have been deprived of the potential benefits of using or investing the monies that you have unlawfully debited from my accounts.

 

I therefore claim the following:

£xxxxxxx Charges

£xxxxxxx Debited Interest applied to charges

£xxxxxxx 11% Contractual Interest applied to charges

£xxxxxxx 11% Contractual Interest applied to debited interest

£xxxxxxx Total

 

For your further information, should it become necessary to submit a counterclaim, £xxxxxx s69 court interest at 8% will be presented to the Judge in the alternative to the 11% contractual rate shown above.

 

Additionally, you have entered a default notice against my credit record. This default occurred merely in respect of unlawful charges levied by you or was the result of impecuniosity caused directly by the taking by you of penalty charges that you had applied unlawfully to my account.

 

In addition to full payment of the sums mentioned above, I require that you remove the default entry from the register. Please note that mere correction or amendment to the entry will not be acceptable.

 

 

My targets to resolve this matter

I hope that you will enter into a sincere dialogue with me about this matter. In addition to my request for information as detailed in the enclosed letter, I will give you 7 working days to reply to me accepting, unconditionally, my request for repayment in principle and letting me know a date by which I will receive payment.

 

If you dispute that I am entitled to a refund of these charges, I request that you forward within the above mentioned time scale, a copy of the Terms and Conditions that were in force at the time my account was opened, and any subsequent amendments to those Terms and Conditions. These are requested under CPR Pre-Action Protocol 4.6©, and failure to provide them will be brought to the attention of the court, should it be necessary to file a Counterclaim to your action in the county court.

 

If you do not respond, or you do not respond positively, within this time period, there will be no further communication from me and I shall issue a counterclaim without delay.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

Gandolfi

 

 

GaryH - I hope that isn't an overload of information. It's as comprehensive but concise as I could make it. Good to have it all in one place rather than on many previous, slightly confusing posts.

 

Thanks again for looking over this. I look forward to your advice.

Very best wishes,

Gandolfi

[GaryH]

Great, thats very helpful thanks.

 

To be honest it looks like you've done very well so far. Well done. Defence was good and it stated the nature of your case so I don't predict too many problems with this one. It was also the correct thing to do to request a stay.

 

Obviously you will need a figure for the counterclaim - are you confident you can provide an accurate one?

 

Also, are we talking probable fast track here? What are the respective amounts of the claim and counterclaim? (PM me this if you'd rather not put it on the open forum)

 

Also, can I see the POC please?

 

Have you sent a CCA request?

[Celicaman]

Apologies GaryH, Re earlier post, not meant to be aggresive, call it passionate. Cant help it when you read some posts & realise the loss some people have had to endure because of greed of banks.

So ive lost a few ( ok £k's ) in fees, im still here & still got roof over head, but some have lost a lot more and it gets to me.

Im sure it helps inspire you as it does me to carry on with this, when you read posts

thanks for your help on behalf of myself and everybody else

 

CM

[gandolfi]

defaultValue893r6O?7d very helpful thanks.

 

To be honest it looks like you've done very well so far. Well done. Defence was good and it stated the nature of your case so I don't predict too many problems with this one. It was also the correct thing to do to request a stay.

 

A) Obviously you will need a figure for the counterclaim - are you confident you can provide an accurate one?

 

B) Also, are we talking probable fast track here? What are the respective amounts of the claim and counterclaim? (PM me this if you'd rather not put it on the open forum)

 

C) Also, can I see the POC please?

 

D) Have you sent a CCA request?

 

 

Thanks Gary. It's great to know that I'm on the right track and haven't made any blunders so far. Your advice on how to move forward (especially concerning the draft letters shown in last post) would be very welcome.

 

I'll try to answer the points you've raised in order:

 

A) The figures I can supply are from an (almost) comprehensive set of statements back to 1991. There are some from the last year that are missing (on the loan) and the most recent ones on the business account, and a few early ones. The later ones would just show interest charged, so can be fairly accurately estimated.

 

B)The amount of their claim is c£15,000. My counterclaim is likely to be c£15,000 + CI at 11% or s69 (either £30,000 or £24,000 approximately).

 

C) Their POC (with approximate figures shown here) are:

 

1) Details of outstanding account(s)

 

Date 18/2/07

A/C Number xxxxxxxxxx

a/C Type - Current

Amount £4500

 

Date 18/2/07

A/C Number xxxxxxxxxx

A/C Type - Loan

Amount £10,000

 

Total Due £15,000

2) The claimant is a holder of a licence under the Consumer Credit Act 1974

3) The claimant has made demand/issues Default Notice(s) in respect of the outstanding accounts.

The Defendant has failed to repay and/or the Default Notice(s) have not been complied with.

4) The total amount outstanding set out in paragraph 1 includes accrued interest at the relvant aggreement rate from the date of demand/termination date to the date of issue.

5) The claimant claims continuing interest at the relevant rate or alternatively pursuant to Section 69 of the County Courtd Act 1984 from the date of issue until Judgement or sooner payment.

 

D) I have not yet made a CCA request (this is the first time I've heard of it).

 

 

Thanks again, GaryH. I really appreciate your input and hope that you'll be able to help me over the next hurdles.

 

Best wishes,

Gandolfi

[GaryH]

No problem - can completely understand your passion and frustration. If I couldn't I wouldn't be here!

 

We have to edit stuff like that though unfortunately - although you didn't name a specific bank, if people see it and think its acceptable then it spreads. Obviously if a specific bank was named it would certainly be libelous. We know from experiance that the banks lawyers moniter the site so we've got to be on the safe side.

[GaryH]

Crossed post.

 

Thanks Gandolfi, I'll have a read now.

[GaryH]

Ok, we're talking fast track here then.

 

Bad on the one hand, becouse of the costs risk which I trust you are fully aware of, but very good on the other becouse we've got disclosure and a few other nice little provisions of the CPR that we can torment them with, that aren't available in small claims.

 

So basically you need to put forward and amended defence which includes a counterclaim, yes?

 

What was the last you heard from the court? You handed the AQ back and haven't heard anything since, is that correct?

 

Forget the prelim letter. They've sued you. You've a right to counterclaim without giving them advance notice.

[gandolfi]

Ok, we're talking fast track here then.

 

Bad on the one hand, becouse of the costs risk which I trust you are fully aware of, but very good on the other becouse we've got disclosure and a few other nice little provisions of the CPR that we can torment them with, that aren't available in small claims.

 

So basically you need to put forward and amended defence which includes a counterclaim, yes?

 

What was the last you heard from the court? You handed the AQ back and haven't heard anything since, is that correct?

 

Forget the prelim letter. They've sued you. You've a right to counterclaim without giving them advance notice.

 

That's great, thanks GaryH.

 

Yes, I submitted the AQ and have not heard back yet (apart from a letter saying that the case is transferred to my local court. As I said before, apparently Natwest haven't seen my defence yet and they are having an argument with the court over its whereabouts.

 

So, yes....amended defence and counterclaim needs to be prepared.

 

Should I still send the letter demanding disclosure of all information (after their failure to comply with my SAR)? Should I include anything else in that letter (CCA request etc)?

 

I cannot be here much over the weekend, but will be back all day Monday, to act on any advice given.

 

Thanks and best wishes,

Gandolfi

[GaryH]

Ok, well you have two choices now then -

 

1) File an amended defence along with a c/c for the estimated amount, or

 

2) Get a request off for the documents you require giving them a deadline of a week. Personally I would do this as a formal request under CPR part 18.

 

If it were me I would definately much favour the latter. You need to see the whole picture before you file your counterclaim really, and I'm not at all keen on estimated amounts.

 

As your not here to decide I'll assume your going to request the info first.

 

Part 18 is a provision which allows a party to request any information or clarification from the other which is necessary to prepare their case - which is ideal in your situation. You serve a preliminary request to the other side giving them a "reasonable" time to respond, then if they don't respond you can apply for an order from the court which would oblige them to comply. As they have already had 40 days plus to find and supply the info under your SAR, and as you need it as a matter of urgancy, I would say a week is reasonable, after which you can apply for an order.

 

Most of what the request will consist of is already there in the letter you posted previously - that can form the basis of your request. I'll put it into a part 18 compliant format for you and post it up later today.

[gandolfi]

Thanks, GaryH, that sounds like a good solid plan to me!

 

I will be able to drop in (in-between work) over the weekend if there are any updates.

 

All best,

Gandolfi

[GaryH]

No problem.

 

I don't forsee to much of a problem with this by the way, IMHO - they may even fold upon receipt of the part 18, although obviously you should'nt get your hopes up too high. I can't see any reason why this would be any different to a straight claim for charges, except obviously most of the refund will be swallowed up!

 

I'll post the part 18 later on.

[GaryH]

Sorry mate (again!) - I'm on this now though so give me an hour and we'll have the p18 ready to go.

[gandolfi]

No problem, GaryH!

It's great that you are helping me and giving your time.

I'm really looking forward to taking the next step with added confidence as a result of your advice.

Cheers!

Gandolfi

[GaryH]

Send a covering letter to Cobbetts, based on the one posted on the previous page -

 

Gandolfi

xxxxxxxxxx

xxxxxxxxxx

 

xxxxxxxxxx

National Westminster Bank

xxxxxxxxxx

xxxxxxxxxxx

7th June 2007

Copy sent to Court

Re: Claim Number: xxxxxxxxx

 

URGENT ATTENTION REQUIRED

 

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

I am writing with regard to the Court claim filed by your company against me on 12 March 2007. I filed a defence to the Court on 11th April 2007, stating that the amounts are now in dispute as I believed they were made up of bank charges which I believe to be unlawful contractual penalties contrary to the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 and the common law.

 

I subsequently requested more time to particularise my defence on the grounds that I was awaiting your response to my Data Protection/Subject Access Request letter (10th April), which asked for detailed information regarding my relationship with National Westminster Bank. A copy of this letter was supplied to the Court with my defence. I informed the Court that I wished to file an amended defence and issue a counterclaim as soon as this information was supplied.

 

As stated in my Subject Access Request letter, you were given 40 days in which to comply. The deadline for providing the requested information passed on 24th May. Despite my request for a complete list of charges and transactions relating to my banking history with your organisation – including the following accounts, xxxxxxxxxxxxx Business Current, xxxxxxxxxx Personal Current, xxxxxxxxxxxxx Business Loan – you have failed to supply the information required. Your response has been wholly inadequate and incomplete.

 

My Business Account was opened in 1989, yet you have only sent bank statements from 29/03/01 to 29/12/06. The Business Loan began in July 2001, yet you have only provided statements from 4/10/02 to 30/9/04. You have provided no information whatsoever regarding my Personal Current Account. Furthermore, you have made no response to my request for information or evidence regarding any manual intervention in relation to my banking history and have not disclosed any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention.

 

To enable me to file a fully particularised defence and counter-claim, I require specific information regarding these accounts to be provided forthwith. Given that this matter is now the subject of legal proceedings, you are obliged to provide this information under Part 18 of the Civil Procedure Rules.

 

Please find enclosed a preliminary request for information and clarification under part 18. This request supersedes the Data Protection request made on 10th April 2007. The information must be furnished by the 19th June 2007, which gives you seven working days to provide what has been requested. I consider this period more than adequate in view of the fact that the same information was requested by way of the Data Protection Act request dated [date].

 

Should you choose to ignore this request, fail to comply in full, or fail to comply on time, this will be reported to the Court and an order enforcing your compliance will be sought without delay.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

 

 

Part 18 request to attach;

 

CLAIM NUMBER: *******

 

 

 

In the XXXXXXX COUNTY COURT

 

Between:

 

[YOU]

Claimant

 

 

-And-

 

 

 

NatWest BANK PLC

Defendant

 

 

 

_______________________

 

REQUEST FOR INFORMATION AND

 

CLARIFICATION UNDER CPR PART 18

_________________________ ___

 

 

DATE OF SERVICE: [date sent]

 

To enable me to file a fully particularised defence and counter-claim, I require specific information regarding the accounts cited in the Claimant's Particulars of Claim to be provided forthwith. The information must be furnished by the 19th June 2007, which gives you seven working days to provide what has been requested. If you fail to comply, this will be reported to the Court, and an order enforcing your compliance will be applied for forthwith.

 

1. In respect of my alleged indebtedness to the Claimant please provide:

 

a) True copies of the original signed agreements between myself and National Westminster Bank, as referred to in paragraphs 1) and 3) of the particulars of claim.

 

b) All documents relating to any insurance added to the accounts, including the insurance contract and terms and conditions, date it was added and deleted (if applicable).

 

c) A true copy of any Default Notice/s issued in respect of these accounts, as referred to paragraph 3) of the particulars of claim;

 

2. I believe my alleged indebtedness to the Claimant to be comprised in full by bank charges which amount to contractual penalties contrary to common law and statute. Therefore, in order that I may prepare and file a fully particularised counterclaim to the Claimant's action, please provide:

 

a) Full Terms and Conditions and charges tariffs relating to each account, from the date when the accounts were opened and including any revisions or amendments to the present day.

 

b) A full and comprehensive statement history for each account, providing each and every statement sheet from the time the accounts were opened until the present day.

 

c) Specific details of all fees/charges levied by National Westminster Bank in respect of these accounts and a detailed breakdown of said fees/charges and what each charge relates to and on what date said fees/charges were levied.

 

d) Where there has been any event in my accounts' history which has required manual intervention by any member of National Westminster Bank, or any other person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my accounts held or formerly held with National Westminster Bank. If you are unable to supply this data because there has been no such manual intervention, then please be so kind as to confirm this in your response.

 

Copy the court, perhaps with a covering letter.

 

If they don't comply properly or on time, then I'll help you with the application.

 

 

[gandolfi]

GaryH, you are a star!!! Thank you!

 

I will get it in today's post with a copy to the court.

 

I just have two small queries...

 

1) The claimant's address on the claim form is not Cobbetts (I've not had anything from them), but an address in Telford (collections dept?, I think). Should I send it to that address?

 

2) In paragraph '2' of the CPR Part 18 request, it says 'I believe my indebtedness to the claimant to be comprised in full by bank charges...'. The calculations I have done so far show that the debt is made up of 50% charges/50% debited interest on those charges (does not include additional CI – just interest they have charged me).

Is it still OK to go with your wording in the letter or should I amend it to say 'comprised in full by bank charges which amount to contractual penalties contrary to common law and statute and the interest debited from my account in respect of those charges'?

 

Thanks again, GaryH! I really do appreciate it.

Gandolfi

[GaryH]

No problem.

 

1) Yes, your right. Sorry Cobbetts was an assuption on my part. Send it to whatever address they've given on the claim form.

 

2) Yes, your suggested amendment is fine.

[gandolfi]

No problem.

 

1) Yes, your right. Sorry Cobbetts was an assuption on my part. Send it to whatever address they've given on the claim form.

 

2) Yes, your suggested amendment is fine.

 

That's great, thanks Gary. I've prepared the letter.

 

Just wanted to confirm one other thing. The CPR Part18 request only asks for information on the accounts that are shown in their particulars of claim (business and loan). However, my personal account will also be part of my counterclaim. They transferred funds from my personal account to the business account (and closed the personal account), so they are connected.

Can I amend the first line to the following, so that it is included:

 

'To enable me to file a fully particularised defence and counter-claim, I require specific information regarding the accounts cited in the Claimant's Particulars of Claim as well as information regarding my Personal Current Account (No xxxxxxxxxxxxxx) to be provided forthwith.'

 

I think that is everything.....apart from my worry that I haven't yet told them how much I am likely to be claiming in total. If they are going to back down, I'd like them to know how much I am expecting to have refunded so that they can make an offer....Should I be doing anything about that? It seems unlikely that they will comply with the Part 18, doesn't it? I'd like to provide them with an escape route (ie. to pay-up what they owe me), if possible...

 

Will be sending this off today anyway,

BIG THANKS to you GaryH!

Best wishes,

Gandolfi

[gandolfi]

GaryH.....Apologies for my repeated posts in the last few minutes...want to try and catch the post, if I can.

 

I noticed that the letter refers to the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999. Is it OK to use this even though their claim is for sole trader business debts? On the SAR, I only referred to Common Law and Statute - I left out references to consumer law, as suggested elsewhere.

 

Just wanted to check.....part of the counterclaim will be for personal account, but their claim against me is for business only.

Thanks!

Gandolfi

[steven4064]

If it is for a business account you should leave out any reference to the UTCCR 1999. Although if you leave them in the DJ will jsut dismiss them as irrelevant and move onto tyhe next bit. It's better to get it right thougfh

Steven

 

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[GaryH]

Sorry, I didn't realise it was a business account. As Steven's post above then, take it out. Replace with Unfair Contracts (Terms) Act 1977 if you like. Not strictly necessary mind you, its not a statement of case after all.

 

With regards to the other post above, yes, that should be fine. Its necessary to prepare your case so I can't see a problem with obtaining information relating to the other account as well.

[gandolfi]

Thanks Steven and welcome to the thread

 

OK, so do you (and GaryH if you are out there) think that the following amendment would be better...?

 

Instead of:

I filed a defence to the Court on 11th April 2007, stating that the amounts are now in dispute as I believed they were made up of bank charges which I believe to be unlawful contractual penalties contrary to the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 and the common law.

 

I write:

'I filed a defence to the Court on 11th April 2007, stating that the amounts are now in dispute as I believed they were made up of bank charges which I believe to be unlawful contractual penalties that are contrary to Statute and unlawful at Common Law.'

 

I'm reluctant to amend the letter without GaryH's go-ahead...

 

Thanks and best wishes,

Gandolfi

[GaryH]

Fine.