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Hi all (especially Guido T and Parkvale), hope you are well! Long time no post from me.

 

Firstly, BIG thanks to Mindzai for a fantastic spreadsheet, which I have now conquered. All of the figures have been calculated and I'm ready to fight back....

 

To sum up the situation......a claim was issued against me for loan/overdraft debts with Nat West (£15k). I have banked with them (business and personal) for 17 years. I replied to the claim stating that I intended to defend because the debt is now in dispute as it is made up of unlawful bank charges that I intend to reclaim. I also sent a SAR letter to the bank and copy to the court (as per template).

 

On the allocation questionaire (for their claim against me) I requested a stay and more time to particularise my defence with a view to submitting an amended defence and counterclaim as soon as Nat West had supplied me with the requested account information. Meanwhile, I would calculate the figures using the statements I have kept (most of them).

 

The 40 day SAR deadline is now up and they have sent only a small number of statements for business/loan accounts and no statements at all for the personal account. They haven't complied with the request, so I have gone ahead with a calculations using the majority of my statements.

 

The figures are as follows:

 

PERSONAL Acc (from 1996 onwards - with some gaps):

Penalties = £1421

(no significant interest charged on penalties)

Contractual Interest @ 10.45% = £1973.75

Contractual Interest @ 29.50% = £13, 036.29

s69 Court Interest @ 8% = £977.63

 

BUSINESS Acc (from 1991 onwards - with one year missing, 1993):

Penalties = £6251

Interest Charged on Penalties = £6476.19

Total = £12,728.09

Contractual Interest @ 10.45% = £15,650.33

Contractual Interest @ 29.50% = £131,307.89

s69 Court Interest @ 8% = £7203.01

 

I am now ready to submit these figures to Nat West informing them that I intend to use them as a counterclaim to their action against me.

 

I am scared as hell, but it is really clear that their charges pushed me into a debt trap (loans + more charges) throughout my relationship with them, so I want my money back!!!

 

I've been reading through BONG's thread which seems a really useful source for claims that include both contractual interest and use of the Limitations Act to claim beyond six years. Any other recommendations would be welcome. Sources of information on the wording of claims featuring the Limitations Act would be particularly helpful.

 

My case is a really complex one that includes both business and personal accounts and I am still feeling a little out of my depth. The templates I intend to use are for business accounts which don't refer to consumer law. Is it better to just use that for the entire claim or should I also add the consumer law with reference to the Personal account?

 

Also, If I were to follow the absolute principle of equity in my claim for full contractual interest at the UAB rate (which they are still charging me on the O/D), the final figure would be ridiculously high (£158,493!). The 10.45% rate is equivalent to their loan rate (which they are charging me on the loan proportion of my debt) which gives a final claim figure of £31,773.17.

 

My instinct is to submit the 10.45% claim with the 8% court rate in the alternative. Is this correct do you think? I want to get it absolutely right from the beginning.

 

Also, a lot of the interest claims are for a proportion of the interest on Nat West 'Business Development' loans that relate to the business account. They were only necessary because of the excess charges that had accumulated. It is fairly straightforward, I think, because they were directly related to the account and were not taken out with other banks. However, any advice on that element would be much appreciated. I have been very careful with the proportionate interest calculations and haven't doubled-up with O/D interest at the same time (all in proportion to accumulated charges at interest date).

 

Advice on the letter to Nat West would be appreciated - is it OK to just send the LBA and then go straight in with the Counterclaim? Or should I write the preliminary letter first? Time is short with their claim against me still running. However, I want to be seen to have given them sufficient opportunity to respond....

 

Anyway, I'm revved up and waiting to hit back!!

 

Thanks again in advance for help!

 

PS - should I be contacting moderators/submitting litigation details etc? Not sure of the etiquette, but any help from the top would be gratefully received.

 

 

 

:)

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Hi Gandolfi............... and phew!!! I've got headache after reading all that - way too complex for me on a Friday night!!!

 

PM Parkvale with your litigation details - name of bank, amount of claim plus claim number!

 

Good luck mate, hedgey xxxx :p


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I do not answer queries via PM. If you send me a PM, please include a link to your thread - any advice I am able to offer will be on your thread.

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I am off out now to get drunk, private message me in case I forget to respond tomorrow.


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I am off out now to get drunk, private message me in case I forget to respond tomorrow.

 

:D :D :D


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Thanks Hedgey!

Sorry I made your head hurt....too much heavy-duty information for a friday night, I know. No wonder GuidoT had to go and get drunk!!

 

Hope you all had a good Bank Holiday weekend anyway - it's good that the banks get a break every now and then, I guess!

 

PM sent to Guido T. Will let Parkvale know the details as soon as my Counter Claim goes in against Nat West.

 

Cheers!

 

 

:D

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Hi Gandolfi

 

My instinct is to submit the 10.45% claim with the 8% court rate in the alternative. Is this correct do you think? I want to get it absolutely right from the beginning.

if u r going to try and claim 10.45% why not go for the full CI rate as u r giving the judge an alternative any way????......Also u could use the higher rate of interest as a bargaining tool if needed................................

 

Scott

  • Haha 1

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I negotiated with the bank over the interest, and it is much better to aim higher and drop. Than start lower and raise. Good luck.


A person is only as big as the dream they dare to live.

 

 

Good things come to he who waits

 

 

Its your money taken unlawfully from your account and you have a legal right to claim it back.

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This is a PM from Gandolfi that I will respond to in square brackets below:

 

Hi Guido T

Hope you had a well-deserved drunken night on friday and a good Bank Holiday! (Congratulations on your recent success against Nat West BTW!!!)

 

Thanks for responding to my thread again - I realise friday night probably wasn't the best time to drop such complex stuff into the forum. I work away from home a lot and it was the first chance I'd had to catch up.

 

I've got the rest of this week to focus on my claim and get everything sent to Nat West to really start the ball rolling. Because it is so complex I want to make sure I'm doing it right from the start.

 

My plan at the moment is to construct a letter that includes the following:

 

1) To draw attention to their non-compliance regarding my S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) letter. To request missing statements and full disclosure of any manual intervention. State that I am continuing my claim on the basis of the statements that I already have and that the claim is likely to increase when I receive the outstanding information from them.

 

[i would estimate your charges based on previous years for now as my post 14, I do not know much about non compliance with SAR]

 

2) Request T&Cs and charges leaflets for the whole period (can I expect them to supply these? I want to make sure I'm on solid ground re: T&Cs).

 

[i am not sure on this point, but some terms are linked to here:

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/lloyds-bank/82148-got-court-date-important.html

specifically here:

Internet Archive Wayback Machine

I have not got this to work though]

 

3) Template Prelim/LBA(?) letter - ensuring that references to Consumer Law are stated as relevant to Personal Account charges only. Claim for refund of charges, interest on those charges plus Contractual Interest at 10.45% (the loan rate being charged by them at the moment on 2/3rds of my debt). I will also point out that if I have to submit a Counterclaim, the 8% court interest will be presented to the Judge in the alternative at that point.

 

[Confused about requirement for letters now, as you are counterclaiming these are not required and nor do you have time]

 

4) Spreadsheets with details of all figures.

 

My main worries are:

1) whether to anticipate their attempt to use the Limitations Act. Do I raise it first in my letter? What should the wording for that be?

 

[Do not issue an pre-emptive defence, let then run the statute barred argument first, if indeed they do]

 

2) do i need to explain how the interest calculations on the spreadsheet were made (for the interest they charged me)? i.e. Do I say "I am also claiming a refund of the O/D and Loan interest which was taken from my account as a direct result of accumulated charges and the resulting necessity of taking out Business Development Loans to repay those charges (loans that would otherwise have been largely unnecessary). The amount of interest claimed is proportionate to the total balance of borrowing (avg O/D for the interest period + Loan balance) against the total accumulated charges at the interest point."?

 

[i do not know about this]

 

3) Also worried about their claim against me still ticking away as I prepare this Counter Claim......At some point I have to submit my amended defence to the court with all of these details....

 

[You must deal with this soonest]

 

Perhaps what I should do is get this package together to send to Nat West as a prelim letter, stating that I will be sending a LBA in 14 days time and that the Counterclaim will be submitted 14 days after that. I can submit that letter along with my spreadsheets to the Court as my amended defence. Hopefully that will [put the brakes on their action...? This way I will be seen to give Nat West sufficient time to respond to my claim before action is taken.

 

[Your amended defence and counterclaim should be submitted simultaneously with headings accordingly, if you PM me your email address I can send you one I have prepared but not based on bank charges so that you can get a feel for it. As I said no need for LBA]

 

Does this sound OK? Sorry to burden you with an excess of information - hopefully, once I have taken this first big leap into the unknown things will move more steadily in smaller steps.

 

Thanks again for helping me. I really appreciate it!

 

[i reiterate you must get on with this]

 

 

:-)


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Thanks Scott, and welcome to the thread!

All advice (especially from a celebrated winner) is much appreciated! I raised a glass (several actually) to your win last month - it was a big boost for me in the early stages. Hope you've been enjoying the success!

 

So, if I were to apply the UAB rate (29.5%) as contractual interest, the total claim would reach almost £160,000. That would be £14,000 charges+interest, plus £146,000 contractual interest. I'd very much like to knock you off the top spot with such a huge claim, but I'm not sure I want to risk sticking my neck out as far as that....if I wasn't already being pursued in court by Nat West for the debt that was caused by the charges, I might be more inclined to try it. It makes sense logically, but with all of the other complications (Business+Personal, pre-6 Years etc), is it pushing it too much, do you think?

 

Did you claim contractual interest? From reading your thread I thought you just claimed the 8%...I would be happy with that, but want to claim a contractual rate from the very beginning.

 

Does anybody know what the authorised borrowing rate is for business accounts. Maybe that would be a more justifiable figure?

 

Thanks again for help. Cheers!

:)

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Thanks Guido T

I'm on the case and aim to submit everything by the end of this week. I realise the urgency, but wasn't sure about going straight to the Counterclaim without supplying Nat West with the information beforehand, to give them an opportunity to settle before court action. If you feel that I have no choice (or that it is better) then I will go ahead with the Counterclaim straightaway. Your guidance for the Amended Defence/Counterclaim would be very helpful (I'll send my email to you).

 

The figures are all in place now. I've included estimates of the parts that are missing. Despite Nat West's non-compliance with the SAR, I already have most of my statements.

 

Still unsure about the correct CI rate to claim. Aiming high and negotiating is right, I think. But a £160,000 claim including CI @ 29.5%? Can that be justified?

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hi

 

thanks for your kind comments....

 

i only claimed the statutory 8% as there were very few people who had claimed CI there were a few that had won with CI but the claims were fairly small, one of your subscibers PARKVALE has just won with CI so he is better informed to advise u on that aspect of your claim......

 

 

Im about to start another claim which is for £4k with the CI 29.6% it adds up to £14k ..........so im going to give it a go.........the worst that will happen is i will accept the £4k with the 8%.............

 

 

All decisions need to be made by yourself as its your money......personally i can't see the judge awarding you £146k in interest alone!!!!!!!!!!! but if u had asked me 2 years ago could i win £36k from natwest i would have said no,people are still pushing the boundarys day by day so who knows what will be awarded??????????

 

I am aware of claims higher than yours, one of the claims is for £300k again with CI @29.8%...........

 

I wish u luck u have some good advisers on this thread , have a read of PHOTOMANS threads as he is also following the same path as yourself..

 

Regards

 

Scott

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Go straight to counterclaim to protect your position, too late to be concerned with allowing them the opportunity to settle beforehand. I bet they did not provide you with the opportunity to settle.

 

I will email you tomorrow when I am in the office.

 

I have not known anyone to succeed in court with a contractual interest claim. Having said that I have a claim that goes back 10 years with Lloyds, of which I think £2.5K of £4K is CI at 18%. I would not claim the £160K and I think you already know why.


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Thanks Scott - I think you are right, that much interest would be groundbreaking to say the least. I want to be confident that the amount claimed is absolutely justified and that the true potential benefits of my lost money are reinstated. I don't want to falsely enrich myself as a result of my claim.

I'll have a closer look at Photoman's thread too.

Thanks and best wishes,

Gandolfi

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This is going to be a long post, I'm afraid. I am at a crucial stage and am about to submit all info to the bank/court regarding my Defence/Counterclaim.

 

Guido T has helped enormously to get me this far. His advice has been to file an amended defence and Counterclaim asap. However, I read on a separate thread

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/73679-illegal-ccj-account-desperate-8.html

that an informed Counterclaim can't be filed until the bank supplies the information required in my SAR. I have adapted a letter (below) from posts 51 & 52 of that thread to apply to my own case (with acknowledgements and thanks to Laiste and Electric Lemon).

 

I now have two choices.......your advice would be very helpful...

 

1) I send the first of the following two letters and go straight ahead with my Counterclaim.

My worry is that, so far, the bank have not received ANY specific details of my claim for refund of charges/interest etc. I trust and value Guido T's advice to file the counterclaim now, I just want to make absolutely sure that this is my best and only choice of action.

 

2) My second option is to send both letters, giving the bank 14 days to either settle in full or to comply with my request for full disclosure.

The problem with the second option is that time is short and I do not want to be defeated in Nat West's action against me because I haven't submitted an amended defence/counterclaim in time.

 

Anyway, here are the letters with some ?????questions????? shown like this in the text.

Any comments/additions/amendments/advice welcomed. Thankyou!

 

LETTER ONE

Mr Gandolfi

XXXXX

XXXXX

 

 

1st June 2007

 

National Westminster Bank

 

Copy sent to Court

 

Re: Claim Number: XXX XXXXX

Account Numbers: XXXXXXXX and XXXXXXXX and XXXXXXXX

 

Request for full disclosure of account information

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

I am writing with regard to the Court claim filed by your company against me. I filed a defence to the Court on 11th April 2007, stating that the amounts are now in dispute as I believed they were made up of unlawful bank charges. I subsequently requested more time to particularise my defence on the grounds that I was awaiting your response to my Data Protection/Subject Access Request letter (10th April), for information regarding my relationship with National Westminster Bank. (a copy of this letter was supplied to the court with my defence), I informed the Court that I intend to file an amended defence and issue a Counterclaim as soon as the requested information was supplied.

 

As stated in my letter, you were given 40 days in which to comply with my request. The deadline for providing the requested information passed on 24th May. Despite my request for a complete list of charges and transactions relating to my banking history with your organisation – including the following accounts, XXXXXXXX Business Current, XXXXXXXX Personal Current, XXXXXXXX Business Loan – you have failed to supply the information required. Your response has been wholly inadequate and incomplete.

 

My Business Account was opened in 1989, yet you have only sent bank statements from 29/03/01 to 29/12/06. The Business Loan began in July 2001, yet you have only provided statements from 4/10/02 to 30/9/04. You have provided no information whatsoever regarding my Personal Current Account.

 

Furthermore, you have made no response to my request for information or evidence regarding any manual intervention in relation to my banking history and have not disclosed any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention.

 

********To enable me to file a defence and counter-claim, I require specific information regarding the account to be provided forthwith.*****???? or ???? ******* I therefore have no option but to submit my amended defence and Counterclaim on the basis of the information that is available to me.****** ????? Which should I use??????

 

Given that this matter is now the subject of legal proceedings, you are obliged to disclose under the Civil Procedure Rules, the information and documents detailed below. This letter supercedes the Data Protection request made on 10th April 2007. The information must be furnished by the XXth June 2007, which gives you fourteen days to provide what has been requested.

 

If you fail to comply, this will be reported to the Court, a copy of this letter will be provided as evidence to the same and an order enforcing your compliance will be sought.

 

The following information is required:

1) I hereby request all data that National Westminster Bank hold on me from all relevant filing systems, to include a complete list of all transactions and charges on my accounts held/formerly held with National Westminster Bank. I also require a transcript of all recorded phone calls pertinent to these accounts and all notes made in relation to those calls.

 

2) Additionally, where there has been any event in my accounts history which has required manual intervention by any member of National Westminster Bank, or any other person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my accounts held/formerly held with National Westminster Bank.

 

If you are unable to supply this data because there has been no such manual intervention, then please be so kind as to confirm this in your response.

 

3) I also require true copies of all original signed agreements between myself and National Westminster Bank.

 

4) Full Terms and Conditions and charges tariffs relating to each account, from the date when the accounts were opened and including any revisions to the present day.

 

5) Documents relating to any insurance added to the accounts, including the insurance contract and terms and conditions, date it was added and deleted (if applicable).

 

6) A true copy of any Default Notice issued in respect of these accounts.

 

7) Specific details of the fees/charges levied by National Westminster Bank in respect of these accounts and a detailed breakdown of said fees/charges and what each charge relates to and on what date said fees/charges were levied.

 

I also enclose details of my intended Counterclaim for unlawful charges and interest on those charges based on the bank statements that are currently available to me.

 

Please note that if my request for full disclosure of the information requested above is not supplied by XXth June, I will proceed with an amended defence and Counterclaim using the attached calculations.

 

I look forward to your co-operation in this matter. Additionally, as the information requested contains sensitive personal details, I expect it to be sent by guaranteed next day delivery, to ensure its safe arrival.

 

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

LETTER TWO

Mr Gandolfi

xxxxxxxxxx

 

National Westminster Bank

xxxxxxxxxx

 

Copy Sent to Court (Claim Ref: XXXX)

 

[date]

 

 

Request for repayment of charges

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

ACCOUNT NUMBERS: XXXXXXXXX Business Current, XXXXXXXX Personal Current, XXXXXXXX Business Loan

 

My request

Further to my enclosed letter requesting all information on my accounts' history with your organisation and in relation to your County Court claim (Ref: XXXXXX) I am writing to ask you to refund to me the charges which you have levied from my accounts over the last 16 years.

 

I now understand that the regime of fees which you have been applying to my accounts in relation to direct debit refusals, exceeding overdraft limits and so forth are unlawful at Common Law, Statute and recent consumer regulations.

 

??????....do I leave the reference to Consumer regulations in - part of my claim is for Personal Acc/part for Business Acc??????or do I just use non-consumer??????.

 

The charges debited to the accounts are punitive in nature; are not a genuine pre-estimate of cost incurred by the bank; exceed any alleged actual loss to the bank in respect of any breaches of contract ; and are not intended to represent or related to any alleged actual loss, but instead unduly enrich the bank which exercises the contractual term in respect of such charges with a view to profit. The precedent for this was Dunlop Pneumatic v New Garage [1915] AC 79.along with Murray v. Leisure play [2005] EWCA Civ 963.

 

If you say that this is not the case, then will you please demonstrate this by letting me have a full breakdown of the costs to which you have been put by as a result of my breaches, in order to reassure me that your penalties really do reflect your costs.

 

Additionally, it has now been confirmed that your particularly high level of penalties are considered to be unfair per se by the OFT who reported on the 5th April 2006 and are therefore presumed to be unlawful in the absence of specific proof to the contrary.

 

Your responsibilities

I would draw your attention to the terms of the contracts which you agreed to at the time that I opened my accounts. It is an implied term of those contracts that you would conduct yourselves lawfully and in a manner which complies with UK law.

 

I am frankly shocked that you have operated my account in this way as I had always reposed confidence in your integrity and expertise as my fiduciary

 

????is there an alternative to fiduciary - not sure that it is right????

 

I consider that your repeated representations that your charges are fair and reasonable are deceptive and that they have deceived me into agreeing to pay them. Your concealment of the true nature of your charges has prevented me from asserting my right until now.

 

What I require

I calculate that you have taken £XXXX plus £XXXX which you have charged me in overdraft and loan interest for the sum which you have taken. Total £XXXXX .

I enclose a schedule of the charges which I am claiming with this letter. In addition, I claim £XXXX compound interest on the amounts claimed using the same rate that you have applied, and continue to apply, to the debt that has been caused by your unlawful charges. The grounds for claiming this rate is based in equity and a legal requirement for fairness.

 

[????This contractual section needs more work!!!??? Any advice????]

 

Additionally you have entered a default notice against my credit record. This default occurred merely in respect of unlawful charges levied by you or was the result of impecuniosity caused directly by the taking by you of penalty charges which you had applied unlawfully to my account.

 

In addition to full payment of the sum mentioned above, I require that you remove the default entry from the register. Please note that mere correction or amendment to the entry will not be acceptable.

 

 

My targets to resolve this matter

I hope that you will enter into a sincere dialogue with me about this matter. In addition to my request for information on my accounts as detailed in the enclosed letter, I will give you 14 days to reply to me accepting, unconditionally, my request for repayment in principle and letting me know a date by which I will receive payment.

 

If you dispute that I am entitled to a refund of these charges, I request that you forward within the above mentioned time scale, a copy of the Terms and Conditions that were in force at the time my account was opened, and any subsequent amendments to those Terms and Conditions. These are requested under CPR Pre-Action Protocol 4.6©, and failure to provide them will be brought to the attention of the court, should it be necessary to file a Counterclaim to your action in the county court.

 

If you do not respond, or you do not respond positively, within this time period, there will be no further communication from me and I shall issue a counterclaim without delay.

 

 

 

 

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

 

 

 

Apologies for long post. Thanks for bearing with me. Any thoughts on how to proceed?

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I have asked someone who knows way more than me to have a look at this for you.


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I have asked someone who knows way more than me to have a look at this for you.

 

Thanks Guido T.

 

I spoke to the bank to ask for details of current interest rates yesterday. They said they were having an argument with the court about where my defence was. They say they haven't seen it yet and asked me to post them a copy. I said I didn't want to discuss the case over the phone and would prefer that everything was in writing. Hope that was right...

 

That does seem to suggest that there may be some time to spare...?

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I've got three quarters of the way through the thread but I've got to go out now - I'll come back later and hopefully will be able to come up with some suggestions on the best way forward by tommorow morning.


Please remember to DONATE! Help CAG keep up the fight!

 

 

Any advice or opinion is offered informally & without liability. Use your own judgment and if in doubt seek advice of a qualified and insured professional.

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I've got three quarters of the way through the thread but I've got to go out now - I'll come back later and hopefully will be able to come up with some suggestions on the best way forward by tommorow morning.

 

Thanks GaryH! Welcome to the thread - I'm really pleased you are able to give your time and help. I look forward to your response.

 

Hope you have a good evening.

 

I'm off out now too - have been staring at computer screen for three days solid and need a break!

 

Best wishes

:)

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Hi there Gandolphi!

 

Wow - what an interesting thread you have here.

 

I must say I think that so far you really are doing a Sterling job. I am very impressed!

 

I am right behind you & if I can be of any help please dont hesitate to ask. I would be absoloutely delighted to see you achieve such a fabulous claim.

 

Thats some really amazingly high amounts!! Makes my eyes water!!;)

 

Good Luck & the best of luck. I'm always around so shout if you need me, if not for info, then just for moral support.

 

Best,

Electric:D

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Thanks for your encouragement Electric!

 

And thanks for the information I gathered from your thread - it has been really useful. It's good to know we're not alone in all of this! If there's any help I can give you in return, do let me know.

 

Best of luck with your fight. With all the moral support and brilliant advice from the people on this site, we'll get there in the end.

 

All best wishes,

Gandolfi

 

:D

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I've got three quarters of the way through the thread but I've got to go out now - I'll come back later and hopefully will be able to come up with some suggestions on the best way forward by tommorow morning.

 

Bump (in particular for GaryH)


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Just bumping this thread to see if anyone can offer advice regarding my previous query, below.....?

 

Thanks all,

Gandolfi

 

This is going to be a long post, I'm afraid. I am at a crucial stage and am about to submit all info to the bank/court regarding my Defence/Counterclaim.

 

Guido T has helped enormously to get me this far. His advice has been to file an amended defence and Counterclaim asap. However, I read on a separate thread

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/73679-illegal-ccj-account-desperate-8.html

that an informed Counterclaim can't be filed until the bank supplies the information required in my SAR. I have adapted a letter (below) from posts 51 & 52 of that thread to apply to my own case (with acknowledgements and thanks to Laiste and Electric Lemon).

 

I now have two choices.......your advice would be very helpful...

 

1) I send the first of the following two letters and go straight ahead with my Counterclaim.

My worry is that, so far, the bank have not received ANY specific details of my claim for refund of charges/interest etc. I trust and value Guido T's advice to file the counterclaim now, I just want to make absolutely sure that this is my best and only choice of action.

 

2) My second option is to send both letters, giving the bank 14 days to either settle in full or to comply with my request for full disclosure.

The problem with the second option is that time is short and I do not want to be defeated in Nat West's action against me because I haven't submitted an amended defence/counterclaim in time.

 

Anyway, here are the letters with some ?????questions????? shown like this in the text.

Any comments/additions/amendments/advice welcomed. Thankyou!

 

LETTER ONE

Mr Gandolfi

XXXXX

XXXXX

 

 

1st June 2007

 

National Westminster Bank

 

Copy sent to Court

 

Re: Claim Number: XXX XXXXX

Account Numbers: XXXXXXXX and XXXXXXXX and XXXXXXXX

 

Request for full disclosure of account information

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

I am writing with regard to the Court claim filed by your company against me. I filed a defence to the Court on 11th April 2007, stating that the amounts are now in dispute as I believed they were made up of unlawful bank charges. I subsequently requested more time to particularise my defence on the grounds that I was awaiting your response to my Data Protection/Subject Access Request letter (10th April), for information regarding my relationship with National Westminster Bank. (a copy of this letter was supplied to the court with my defence), I informed the Court that I intend to file an amended defence and issue a Counterclaim as soon as the requested information was supplied.

 

As stated in my letter, you were given 40 days in which to comply with my request. The deadline for providing the requested information passed on 24th May. Despite my request for a complete list of charges and transactions relating to my banking history with your organisation – including the following accounts, XXXXXXXX Business Current, XXXXXXXX Personal Current, XXXXXXXX Business Loan – you have failed to supply the information required. Your response has been wholly inadequate and incomplete.

 

My Business Account was opened in 1989, yet you have only sent bank statements from 29/03/01 to 29/12/06. The Business Loan began in July 2001, yet you have only provided statements from 4/10/02 to 30/9/04. You have provided no information whatsoever regarding my Personal Current Account.

 

Furthermore, you have made no response to my request for information or evidence regarding any manual intervention in relation to my banking history and have not disclosed any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention.

 

********To enable me to file a defence and counter-claim, I require specific information regarding the account to be provided forthwith.*****???? or ???? ******* I therefore have no option but to submit my amended defence and Counterclaim on the basis of the information that is available to me.****** ????? Which should I use??????

 

Given that this matter is now the subject of legal proceedings, you are obliged to disclose under the Civil Procedure Rules, the information and documents detailed below. This letter supercedes the Data Protection request made on 10th April 2007. The information must be furnished by the XXth June 2007, which gives you fourteen days to provide what has been requested.

 

If you fail to comply, this will be reported to the Court, a copy of this letter will be provided as evidence to the same and an order enforcing your compliance will be sought.

 

The following information is required:

1) I hereby request all data that National Westminster Bank hold on me from all relevant filing systems, to include a complete list of all transactions and charges on my accounts held/formerly held with National Westminster Bank. I also require a transcript of all recorded phone calls pertinent to these accounts and all notes made in relation to those calls.

 

2) Additionally, where there has been any event in my accounts history which has required manual intervention by any member of National Westminster Bank, or any other person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my accounts held/formerly held with National Westminster Bank.

 

If you are unable to supply this data because there has been no such manual intervention, then please be so kind as to confirm this in your response.

 

3) I also require true copies of all original signed agreements between myself and National Westminster Bank.

 

4) Full Terms and Conditions and charges tariffs relating to each account, from the date when the accounts were opened and including any revisions to the present day.

 

5) Documents relating to any insurance added to the accounts, including the insurance contract and terms and conditions, date it was added and deleted (if applicable).

 

6) A true copy of any Default Notice issued in respect of these accounts.

 

7) Specific details of the fees/charges levied by National Westminster Bank in respect of these accounts and a detailed breakdown of said fees/charges and what each charge relates to and on what date said fees/charges were levied.

 

I also enclose details of my intended Counterclaim for unlawful charges and interest on those charges based on the bank statements that are currently available to me.

 

Please note that if my request for full disclosure of the information requested above is not supplied by XXth June, I will proceed with an amended defence and Counterclaim using the attached calculations.

 

I look forward to your co-operation in this matter. Additionally, as the information requested contains sensitive personal details, I expect it to be sent by guaranteed next day delivery, to ensure its safe arrival.

 

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

LETTER TWO

Mr Gandolfi

xxxxxxxxxx

 

National Westminster Bank

xxxxxxxxxx

 

Copy Sent to Court (Claim Ref: XXXX)

 

[date]

 

 

Request for repayment of charges

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

ACCOUNT NUMBERS: XXXXXXXXX Business Current, XXXXXXXX Personal Current, XXXXXXXX Business Loan

 

My request

Further to my enclosed letter requesting all information on my accounts' history with your organisation and in relation to your County Court claim (Ref: XXXXXX) I am writing to ask you to refund to me the charges which you have levied from my accounts over the last 16 years.

 

I now understand that the regime of fees which you have been applying to my accounts in relation to direct debit refusals, exceeding overdraft limits and so forth are unlawful at Common Law, Statute and recent consumer regulations.

 

??????....do I leave the reference to Consumer regulations in - part of my claim is for Personal Acc/part for Business Acc??????or do I just use non-consumer??????.

 

The charges debited to the accounts are punitive in nature; are not a genuine pre-estimate of cost incurred by the bank; exceed any alleged actual loss to the bank in respect of any breaches of contract ; and are not intended to represent or related to any alleged actual loss, but instead unduly enrich the bank which exercises the contractual term in respect of such charges with a view to profit. The precedent for this was Dunlop Pneumatic v New Garage [1915] AC 79.along with Murray v. Leisure play [2005] EWCA Civ 963.

 

If you say that this is not the case, then will you please demonstrate this by letting me have a full breakdown of the costs to which you have been put by as a result of my breaches, in order to reassure me that your penalties really do reflect your costs.

 

Additionally, it has now been confirmed that your particularly high level of penalties are considered to be unfair per se by the OFT who reported on the 5th April 2006 and are therefore presumed to be unlawful in the absence of specific proof to the contrary.

 

Your responsibilities

I would draw your attention to the terms of the contracts which you agreed to at the time that I opened my accounts. It is an implied term of those contracts that you would conduct yourselves lawfully and in a manner which complies with UK law.

 

I am frankly shocked that you have operated my account in this way as I had always reposed confidence in your integrity and expertise as my fiduciary

 

????is there an alternative to fiduciary - not sure that it is right????

 

I consider that your repeated representations that your charges are fair and reasonable are deceptive and that they have deceived me into agreeing to pay them. Your concealment of the true nature of your charges has prevented me from asserting my right until now.

 

What I require

I calculate that you have taken £XXXX plus £XXXX which you have charged me in overdraft and loan interest for the sum which you have taken. Total £XXXXX .

I enclose a schedule of the charges which I am claiming with this letter. In addition, I claim £XXXX compound interest on the amounts claimed using the same rate that you have applied, and continue to apply, to the debt that has been caused by your unlawful charges. The grounds for claiming this rate is based in equity and a legal requirement for fairness.

 

[????This contractual section needs more work!!!??? Any advice????]

 

Additionally you have entered a default notice against my credit record. This default occurred merely in respect of unlawful charges levied by you or was the result of impecuniosity caused directly by the taking by you of penalty charges which you had applied unlawfully to my account.

 

In addition to full payment of the sum mentioned above, I require that you remove the default entry from the register. Please note that mere correction or amendment to the entry will not be acceptable.

 

 

My targets to resolve this matter

I hope that you will enter into a sincere dialogue with me about this matter. In addition to my request for information on my accounts as detailed in the enclosed letter, I will give you 14 days to reply to me accepting, unconditionally, my request for repayment in principle and letting me know a date by which I will receive payment.

 

If you dispute that I am entitled to a refund of these charges, I request that you forward within the above mentioned time scale, a copy of the Terms and Conditions that were in force at the time my account was opened, and any subsequent amendments to those Terms and Conditions. These are requested under CPR Pre-Action Protocol 4.6©, and failure to provide them will be brought to the attention of the court, should it be necessary to file a Counterclaim to your action in the county court.

 

If you do not respond, or you do not respond positively, within this time period, there will be no further communication from me and I shall issue a counterclaim without delay.

 

 

 

 

 

Yours faithfully,

 

 

 

 

 

Apologies for long post. Thanks for bearing with me. Any thoughts on how to proceed?

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BUMP for a mod.............. apparently, Gary H?


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BUMP for a mod.............. apparently, Gary H?

 

Thanks Hedgey, and welcome.

 

Gary H - I realise you must be incredibly busy, but I'm hoping you will be able to help...

 

Many thanks

Gandolfi

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