Zubo v Egg

[Cristal]

Z! many thanks for your comprehensive reply. What is POC? let me know and I will get it to you. Will also dig out the original paper work and scrutinise. Won't be able to do anything until tonight.

 

huge thanks! CXXX

[angry cat]

You are correct zubo that the copy of my alleged agreement (July 2001) was pre dated.

However, all that I was sent under my CCA request was the front of the agreement, the back of the agreement and the DD mandate.

There is no mention of default charges and I was not sent the 2001 conditions whaich are part of the agreement and if the conditions from part of the agreement, why wasn't I sent them...where are they.

 

I am of the opinion that mine is probably enforceable but surely, it cannot be properly executued.

 

Love AC

[zubo]

You are correct zubo that the copy of my alleged agreement (July 2001) was pre dated.

However, all that I was sent under my CCA request was the front of the agreement, the back of the agreement and the DD mandate.

There is no mention of default charges and I was not sent the 2001 conditions whaich are part of the agreement and if the conditions from part of the agreement, why wasn't I sent them...where are they.

 

I am of the opinion that mine is probably enforceable but surely, it cannot be properly executued.

 

Love AC

 

AC

 

Yes the lack of the correct TCs makes it improperly executed. Also default charges missing strengthens your case. If the front and back were different pieces of paper - how do you know they are the same one single document. The predated seems to look decidely bad - how can they predate what should be their confirmation of execution of your agreement based on your information... the more I consider this, the more I think its unenforceable.

Z

[rich2568]

Zubo- I`ve just got my CCa from Egg this morning. It has the same 2 pages mentioned earlier (Ref:-ECD002/2.2.09.10.00). Has the double EGG in the t.r.h. corner of the 1St page?This was dated by me 16/10/02 and dated 13/10/02 (3 days earlier?)by Az Alibhai . Is his a pre-printed sig. Also there is no info. on default charges within the CCA- yet they charged me 2X£20 for `Overlimit Charges`? They state that with the CCA came Egg Credit Card Agreement Conditions which they refer back to when the Default Notice was issued. However when they offered a loan to settle the Egg Card there was 3 pages of T & C`s within it.

 

Any thoughts on this?

[tomterm8]

Zubo, looking at your page 1... you have name, and address on the first page, and both are blank... therefore the document does not have all the prescribed terms, and is unenforceable.

[ian1969uk]

Zubo, looking at your page 1... you have name, and address on the first page, and both are blank... therefore the document does not have all the prescribed terms, and is unenforceable.

 

He's just blocked them out for security.

[tomterm8]

He's just blocked them out for security.

 

Doh! mr thick-o, lol;)

[zubo]

Zubo- I`ve just got my CCa from Egg this morning. It has the same 2 pages mentioned earlier (Ref:-ECD002/2.2.09.10.00). Has the double EGG in the t.r.h. corner of the 1St page?This was dated by me 16/10/02 and dated 13/10/02 (3 days earlier?)by Az Alibhai . Is his a pre-printed sig. Also there is no info. on default charges within the CCA- yet they charged me 2X£20 for `Overlimit Charges`? They state that with the CCA came Egg Credit Card Agreement Conditions which they refer back to when the Default Notice was issued. However when they offered a loan to settle the Egg Card there was 3 pages of T & C`s within it.

 

Any thoughts on this?

 

The essence of my and everyone else's disputes appear to be:

 

(i) the agreement appears to be reconstructed - I have never signed a two page document and will seek to see the original, I am of the opinion that the document I signed with Egg was an agreement but an application.

(ii) they have not provided the T&Cs which were issued at the time.

(iii) there is no mention of Default Notices

Finally I have asked them to prove to me that Az Alibhai was employed by Egg and authorised to sign the alleged agreement - after all it does sound like the agreement itself - reconstructed - who on earth would have a name which sounds like alibi?

Oh, and also IF this was signed by Egg pre-dated than what does that mean? It cannot possibly be pre-approved, so it is a precontractual document, and subject to new documents - THE agreement returned to me with their signature and for me to sign.

 

Right thats about it.

 

I have been sent a pre-trial letter - more likely another frightener.

Well I will put these points and ask Egg to comment yet again and remind them again that they are in default and send the complaint to OFT.

 

Z

[ian1969uk]

Zubo, I'm still going through all this with Egg, who now have Hillesden acting for them. In my opinion, there's nothing they can do until they AT LEAST fully comply with S78, and that means that they must send the terms and conditions applicable at the time the account was opened.

 

The results of my SAR brought some interesting internal messages showing the guy who was dealing with my complaint frantically contacting other departments within Egg looking for those T&Cs. I've never had them, so am pretty sure they can't find them. To me this will be a complete defence to any court claim, as they remain in default of S78.

 

This is in addition to all of the points you've raised above. I would suggest, too, that the pre-trial letter is just one more attempt to scare you.

 

Remember, as well, to keep shoving threats of a counterclaim for S85 at them. They will be terrified of losing a counterclaim on this basis as it could potentially cost them millions. Look carefully, too, at the two pages as on mine it would appear that they type font is different on each one, which would be extremely strange for what is supposed to be a single document.

[ian1969uk]

Also, there is a statement that the agreement would only be binding on them when they have completed their final checks. This may be challengeable, then, as a void agreement as it purports to bind you to a future regulated agreement.

[tomterm8]

Hm... Looking at it, does anyone see "Total Charge For Credit" anywhere?

[ian1969uk]

Don't think that needs to be there for running account credit. How could they tell you the total charge, it would depend on how much you spent/monthly payments etc. That only needs to be there for fixed sum credit, like loans.

[tomterm8]

Don't think that needs to be there for running account credit. How could they tell you the total charge, it would depend on how much you spent/monthly payments etc. That only needs to be there for fixed sum credit, like loans.

 

Well... I'm going by http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/consumer_credit/oft786a.pdf p38, "The 2004 Regulations amend the requirements in relation to the ‘total charge for credit, rate of interest etc’ – Sch 1 paras 9 and 10. All credit agreements (other than fixed-sum agreements under which the total amount payable does not exceed the total cash price) must now state the total charge for credit (TCC). This must appear as part of ‘Other Financial Information’. "

[rich2568]

Could this be 2 seperate documents?

 

They produce the 1st with the terms of the Interest then the second page (which could be the reverse as Egg do print on both sides as per my Loan Terms and Conditions) does have a different font which could be the application?

[ian1969uk]

Well... I'm going by http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/reports/consumer_credit/oft786a.pdf p38, "The 2004 Regulations amend the requirements in relation to the ‘total charge for credit, rate of interest etc’ – Sch 1 paras 9 and 10. All credit agreements (other than fixed-sum agreements under which the total amount payable does not exceed the total cash price) must now state the total charge for credit (TCC). This must appear as part of ‘Other Financial Information’. "

 

From the OFT guidance on what an agreement must contain:

 

5 In the case of all running-account agreements, instead of giving details of the total

charge for credit as in point 4 above, the details to be shown are the rate of any

interest on the credit provided under the agreement and the total amount of other

credit charges (for example, a commitment fee).

[NitrousOxide]

Hi,

I'm in the same situation so will subscribe and help. I too have the 2 page agreement. Interestingly the assignemt document specifacally states which part of the T&C's they've assigned it under. Hey err... I CCA'd you and didn't get those. I strongly believe if this were argued in court a judge would want to see those T&C's.

You could also argue against such things as interest being added as well. My egg account is with Caqpest and the interest they are adding is phenomenal. They will say they have the right to under the agreement. Well go ahead then and show me.

[NitrousOxide]

Hi,

Hope you don't mind me posting in your thread as I feel the details are identical. Feel free to link to other threads as well.

Letter From Egg

 

Letter From Caqpest

 

Page 1 Of Agreement

 

Page 2 Of Agreement

 

Notice the letter from Egg and capquest are the same font, use the same barcode and have the identicle info in the top left.

Again also only a 2 page agreement.

[rich2568]

Within the new thread `Agreement Enforceability`- within` General`, it is stating this:-

The Egg agreements don't need cancellation rights as there was no face to face discussion between creditor and debtor prior to the signing of the agreement. Therefore, they are non-cancellable agreements

.

 

This thread goes into a lot of details on this subject- very interesting!

 

What does anybody think of this actual post from Ian?

[ian1969uk]

rich, it's not really my statement. The links I posted show what it and isn't a cancellable agreement. In terms of our Egg agreements, did we have face to face discussions with Egg before signing the agreements. No we didn't, therefore it is not a cancellabe agreement.

 

It's fact, not just my opinion.

[rich2568]

Lets alter the word `statement` to `post`- because that`s what I meant.

 

After all the hard work you have put in on the thread, I certainly wouldn`t then assume it was your opinion. The guidance is all there from the OFT.

 

Now it`s up to the individuals who have agreements through Egg and other lenders to see which criteria theirs falls into.

 

There would be quite a few people on this thread who will be surprised at the guidance which states that there actually ARE non- cancellable agreements.

 

Have now updated post 93 Ian for your records- no offence intended-honest!

[zubo]

I cannot recall the debates we had on cancellable or non, Peter B was always my best guide.

 

However, I don't recall that cancellation details was an issue - what WAS an issue was the lack of mention of Default procedures and that IS a prescribed term as I recall.

 

Z

[ian1969uk]

I cannot recall the debates we had on cancellable or non, Peter B was always my best guide.

 

However, I don't recall that cancellation details was an issue - what WAS an issue was the lack of mention of Default procedures and that IS a prescribed term as I recall.

 

Z

 

Default charges are a required term, not a prescribed term.

[zubo]

Default charges are a required term, not a prescribed term.

 

thats what i said did'll i??

 

z

[vinegarvera]

Thanks Zubo

 

Did you send a second letter to Egg after they sent your CCA? Sorry if I have missed it somewhere.

[linz2011]

subbing any further updates here?