Zubo v Egg

[ian1969uk]

Sorry Zubo, the one that's an application form is my Egg Money card. The one we are discussing in terms of lack of default charge description is my Egg Card.

[zubo]

Just to complicate matters, I just noticed my current Egg card is 03/06 (chip n pin?)which means I can issue them with a failure under S85 since that date too,

 

Z

[un1boy]

Hi Z,

 

My agreement is the same as yours- signed by the same "person" and has no default charge statements in it.

 

I am confused now, as I would have thought that the sig doc would have meant on the same page as the signature.

 

I am going to start writing to them etc and I will start my own thread.

 

Why did u mention that they should repay all interest etc? Because the agreement is unenforcable?

 

I thought that if it had both sigs, but no prescirbed terms then is wasn't unexecuted, just unenforcable.....

[InKogneeToh]

Hi all

 

I have in front of me all the pages of an Egg Card (Blue) Agreement that I applied for in addition to my standard Egg card in 2005, but didn't eventually take.

 

The first page is headed 'Credit Agreement regulated... blah blah, and there are 2 identical copies of this, one to keep and one to sign and return

 

Then it says 'This is a credit agreement between us, Egg..... and you. The main financial terms of the agreement are set out below. A copy of the agreement is enclosed for you to keep.

 

Then it has my and their names/addresses, credit limit info, interest and credit charges and repayment terms (all of the prescribed terms).

 

On the reverse it has the statements of rights, a signature box and their pre-printed signature.

 

The 2nd doc is headed ' Credit Agreement regulated ....etc. Then it has 'Conditions' and 'Please read this carefully' and 'These conditions are incorporated into the Credit Card agreement'

 

Then 'Introduction' and then 'This agreement sets out what we will do for you and what you must do for us in relation to the Egg Card. It is contained in these Card conditions and the Agreement form signed by you.

 

Then come 2 pages of conditions in which the default charges appear in condition 17.

 

So, the agreement here is stated as being covered by the 3 pages. IMO any agreement set out like this is probably going to be enforceable, even if considered 'improperly executed' in any way. The prescribed terms are all on the first page, the rest of the agreement is referred to in the first page and everything that should be included, has been.

 

Regards, Pam

[ian1969uk]

Yes Pam, it sounds like that one would be enforceable.

 

That's a different type of agreement to what me and Zubo have, though, and these lack any mention of the default charges.

 

Yours was 2005, Zubo's 2004 and mine 1999.

 

I wonder if Egg realised their mistake and started issuing new agreements?

[InKogneeToh]

Hi

 

I have just dug out the paper work for the card I did take in 2001 and the agreement is exactly the same - 3 pages - all exactly as described in my last post (and it was applied for via the internet)!

 

What documents do you have? Is it just what you have been sent as a copy as they may only be sending out the 1st 'page'.

 

Regards, Pam

[ian1969uk]

This is where Zubo posted up his agreement, but mine looks exactly the same:

 

Egg agreement

[InKogneeToh]

Hi

 

Zubo's pictures above are of the front and back of the 1st page and are exactly like mine. At the top of the front page it says: 'This is a Credit Agreement blah blah .....A copy of the agreement is enclosed for you to keep'.

 

I had a copy of this page to keep plus the 2 other pages that contain the rest of the agreement.

 

If they have only sent you the page as shown above then they have not fully complied with the CCA request as the agreement is actually 3 pages.

 

Regards, Pam

[ian1969uk]

Hmm, but is then pushed on this non-compliance, they could just copy any old page 2 and 3 and send them stating they are part of the agreement. Is there anything that links those pages together in yours?

[zubo]

Pam

 

Yours sound very different to ours - there is no more for ours Egg has sent me exactly the same again.

 

Can you post yours so we can spot the differences.

I think Ian is correct - they have fixed the agreement now but not ours...

 

Z

[InKogneeToh]

Hi

 

All 3 pages of the 2001 edition have the following reference no. in the bottom left hand corner:

 

ECD002/2.1.28.06.00

 

I am guessing that this is a reference to the date of the document template current to the date that my agreement was made - August 2001.

 

The 2005 agreement docs all have the following:

 

MCD001/2.2.09.10.00

Int. Ref - (NOT your acc no) 2682565

 

If you can read the ref. no. on the bottom of your 1st page doc. then you should expect any further pages they send you to correspond.

 

Regards, Pam

[ian1969uk]

Interesting. There is a reference number on the page with prescribed terms, matching the reference number on the copy of the direct debit mandate they sent me.

 

There is no corresponding reference number on the signature page, but maybe this is because you said it was the reverse of a page.

 

Is there a reference number on your signature page Pam?

[un1boy]

Is there a reference number on your signature page Pam?

 

Is an automated signature allowed?

[ian1969uk]

Is an automated signature allowed?

 

Just guessing here but probably yes after the Electronic Comms order.

[InKogneeToh]

Interesting. There is a reference number on the page with prescribed terms, matching the reference number on the copy of the direct debit mandate they sent me.

 

There is no corresponding reference number on the signature page, but maybe this is because you said it was the reverse of a page.

 

Is there a reference number on your signature page Pam?

 

Hi

 

No number on there - it's the reverse of the 1st page that contains all of the prescribed terms, i.e. interest rate, credit limit info. etc.

 

Have you actually written to Egg again and requested the rest of the agreement?

 

Regards, Pam

[ian1969uk]

Yes.

[zubo]

Just guessing here but probably yes after the Electronic Comms order.

 

Probably right - but don't think it was retrospective so could do with the date when this was effective.

 

In the words of a well known retailer - in fact might put it on my tagline

 

Every Little Bit Helps

[zubo]

Letter in response to Default received:

 

I have received from you a Default Notice which has been unlawfully issued and which I reject. It is not I who is in Default but Egg. I draw your attention to Section 78 (6) If the creditor fails to comply with subsection (1) then (a) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement.

You have not supplied me with a true copy of an executed agreement – I have explained fully why your agreement is unexecuted and does not meet the CCA requirements in my previous letter.

You are now in default.

You are reminded that you it is unlawful for you to attempt to enforce the agreement, make charges against the account, share my data with third parties, attempt to default me or attempt to sell the account.

I await your comments.

 

 

Z

[InKogneeToh]

Letter in response to Default received:

 

I have received from you a Default Notice which has been unlawfully issued and which I reject. It is not I who is in Default but Egg. I draw your attention to Section 78 (6) If the creditor fails to comply with subsection (1) then (a) he is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement.

You have not supplied me with a true copy of an executed agreement – I have explained fully why your agreement is unexecuted and does not meet the CCA requirements in my previous letter.

You are now in default.

You are reminded that you it is unlawful for you to attempt to enforce the agreement, make charges against the account, share my data with third parties, attempt to default me or attempt to sell the account.

I await your comments.

 

 

Z

 

Hi Zubo

 

Do you mean 'unexecuted' or 'improperly executed'? There is a world of difference between these 2 terms and if you were involved in any court action you would need to be very careful what you are alleging about the status of an agreement, otherwise it could be detrimental to your claim/defence.

 

Regards, Pam

[zubo]

Hi Zubo

 

Do you mean 'unexecuted' or 'improperly executed'? There is a world of difference between these 2 terms and if you were involved in any court action you would need to be very careful what you are alleging about the status of an agreement, otherwise it could be detrimental to your claim/defence.

 

Regards, Pam

 

goddammit Pam, you know us foreners kannot spik the lingo like wot yu kan...

 

corse its improperly executed dats wot i sed didl i?

 

Zx

[the main man]

Hi Zubo,

 

Have read your thread and subscribing!

My wife the Main Woman has had the same 2 docs sent following her CCA request which was signed by her on the 16th Feb 2004, 16 days after yours. Although this probably has no relevance, I find it strange that the printing on the first copy like mine has double egg (no pun intended!) and the second page just normal text?

[zubo]

Hi Zubo,

 

Have read your thread and subscribing!

My wife the Main Woman has had the same 2 docs sent following her CCA request which was signed by her on the 16th Feb 2004, 16 days after yours. Although this probably has no relevance, I find it strange that the printing on the first copy like mine has double egg (no pun intended!) and the second page just normal text?

 

yes MM, my real assertion is that this is not the true agreement but one which has been reconstructed....

 

Z

[angry cat]

Hi zubo!

 

I wonder if you could check out the egg agreement that I was sent?

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/33174-consumer-credit-act-agreements-333.html#post801106

 

Thanks

 

AC

[Cristal]

yes MM, my real assertion is that this is not the true agreement but one which has been reconstructed....

 

Z

 

Z! Is it okay to discuss an Egg Loan on this thread? In reply to my CCA, Egg sent me what could be a properly executed agreement (am v. frustrated that I can't scan it!). It states that it's a CA regulated by CCA 1974, has my name and address, interest rate, APR,number of monthly payments, My Rights, refers to the T&C but without my rights to cancel. It then says 'This agreement will only be binding on us when we have completed and are satisfied with our final credit checks and other searches, and you have signed and returned this agreement to us'. 'Jenny Lewin' signed 2 days before I did.

 

I continued to question the validity of this agreement, sent an SAR (EGG are delaying, claiming the ID I sent them was out of date - it isn't - and asking for other ID). I followed up withy endless letters and a Notice of Default. EGG ignored the letters and set Eversheds on me again. I wrote back to EGG and CC'd Eversheds, several times, reminding them that this account is officially in dispute and it is unlawful for EGG to pass my details on to third parties. No replies from EGG, a few threatening ones from Eversheds and the odd phone call from them.

 

Then, about 10 days ago, I was sent a Court Clain from EGG, which I intend to defend. I then sent a VERY stiff letter to the head of the Client Liaison Team, pointing out the account was in dispute and to withdraw the Court Claim immediately. I've rec'd in a 'sorry you have to complain and here's a charter for EGG complaints, etc.' from someone in 'Customer Realtions Office' - essentially ignoring the contents of my letter. I am furious and legally vulnerable, now that EGG has started the legal ball rolling - tho if I defend it with all my correspondence and the allegation that the EGG agreement is not properly executed will EGG actually go to court (there are other threads where EGG has gone to court)?

 

As ever, I defer to your infinite wisdom and sage advice in these matters!

 

CXXX

[zubo]

Z! Is it okay to discuss an Egg Loan on this thread? In reply to my CCA, Egg sent me what could be a properly executed agreement (am v. frustrated that I can't scan it!). It states that it's a CA regulated by CCA 1974, has my name and address, interest rate, APR,number of monthly payments, My Rights, refers to the T&C but without my rights to cancel. It then says 'This agreement will only be binding on us when we have completed and are satisfied with our final credit checks and other searches, and you have signed and returned this agreement to us'. 'Jenny Lewin' signed 2 days before I did.

 

I continued to question the validity of this agreement, sent an S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) (EGG are delaying, claiming the ID I sent them was out of date - it isn't - and asking for other ID). I followed up withy endless letters and a Notice of Default. EGG ignored the letters and set Eversheds on me again. I wrote back to EGG and CC'd Eversheds, several times, reminding them that this account is officially in dispute and it is unlawful for EGG to pass my details on to third parties. No replies from EGG, a few threatening ones from Eversheds and the odd phone call from them.

 

Then, about 10 days ago, I was sent a Court Clain from EGG, which I intend to defend. I then sent a VERY stiff letter to the head of the Client Liaison Team, pointing out the account was in dispute and to withdraw the Court Claim immediately. I've rec'd in a 'sorry you have to complain and here's a charter for EGG complaints, etc.' from someone in 'Customer Realtions Office' - essentially ignoring the contents of my letter. I am furious and legally vulnerable, now that EGG has started the legal ball rolling - tho if I defend it with all my correspondence and the allegation that the EGG agreement is not properly executed will EGG actually go to court (there are other threads where EGG has gone to court)?

 

As ever, I defer to your infinite wisdom and sage advice in these matters!

 

CXXX

 

Cristal,

 

Sorry for the long delay.... its been a manic several days....

 

PM me the POC to check out how best to advise.

 

You have virtually the same issues as I have, except that yours is slightly stronger - yours was pre-dated by them, I think AC's is the same.

 

I suspect that EGG will pursue these in court because they think the Court will enforce. Remember, the most significant reason where they will not enforce is - if there is no debtor's signature and/or if it's not an Agreement (imho) OR the original agreement, and/or if its missing any prescribed terms.

 

We need to put together a compelling reason not to enforce. To complain to TS/OFT is quite frankly at this stage diverting your attention away from addressing the court case. Lets focus on that.

 

I just re-read your post. It's a loan... you need to carefully and thoroughly check the Financing. I have destroyed my son's car lease agreement because these were incorrect - this is a prescribed term. Do the sums. PM me details.

 

Zx