Advice please…..�Responsible Lending V Irresponsible Borrowing�

[tiglet]

I don't see why you couldn't ask to see your CCA's - after all, at this stage you aren't contesting anything, simply asking to look at them.

 

IMO, saying you've admitted the debt by the IVA is like saying you admit the debt by paying them - that isn't really the point, the point is can they legally enforce the debt, surely?

[Penfold92]

I don't see why you couldn't ask to see your CCA's - after all, at this stage you aren't contesting anything, simply asking to look at them.

 

IMO, saying you've admitted the debt by the IVA is like saying you admit the debt by paying them - that isn't really the point, the point is can they legally enforce the debt, surely?

 

That is also my point

[Penfold92]

Also surely people asking for a refund of illegal charges is the same?

 

You paid the charge therefore why should you get money back?

 

What about people claiming on closed/ settled accounts, same situation you paid therefore acknowledged the debt. Are you saying that by putting the debts in an IVA I am legally confirming them, whereas the above examples have not? If so then that is highly unfair in the legal system.

 

I was in big trouble and rather than running away I tried to orgainse a way out. Surely that is trying to act responsibly, all be it a bit late, so why should I be punished to trying to do the right thing? I still believe a Judge would look at the bigger picture if the creditors will not...

 

Penfold

[hellhasnofury]

Hello,

 

I am following your thread with great interest.

 

I have been in financial difficulities and will be paying for this till the year blah.

 

I will take responsibility for spending money in the beginning. Every time I reached the limit these so called fiduciarys put it up and up and up. The minium payments they took soaked up my earnings and I had nothing. So you apply for a loan and they give it to you (with ppi) applied that you did not want or realise that they were actually mis-selling it to you. So the next year or two things are ok. But the limits are still going up and up and up. So you top up your loan(with more ppi applied) and it goes ok for a while. The banks take their unlawful charges and apply more and more charges. and then BANG! Your world caves in.

 

I have worked hard all of my life paid all bills and never been defaulted on anything till last year. The natwest have been the worst. £2120 bank charges and a ppi of £5000+.

 

Anyway that is my story and your thread has inspired me and I thank you for that.

 

What did you ask when you rang the FO. No sorry how did you start.

[Penfold92]

What did you ask when you rang the FO. No sorry how did you start.

 

I called the helpline on the website and the lady I spoke to said she could not give advice I merely went round the houses to find out how the complaints were going and she gave a little info...Try it yourself and post the response you get. Would be interested to find out.

 

Penfold

[Penfold92]

consumer helpline

 

• 0845 080 1800

[gizmo111]

Also surely people asking for a refund of illegal charges is the same?

 

You paid the charge therefore why should you get money back?

 

What about people claiming on closed/ settled accounts, same situation you paid therefore acknowledged the debt. Are you saying that by putting the debts in an IVA I am legally confirming them, whereas the above examples have not? If so then that is highly unfair in the legal system.

 

I was in big trouble and rather than running away I tried to orgainse a way out. Surely that is trying to act responsibly, all be it a bit late, so why should I be punished to trying to do the right thing? I still believe a Judge would look at the bigger picture if the creditors will not...

 

Penfold

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general-debt/69385-ivas-where-you-stand.html

[Penfold92]

Hi Gizmo,

 

Thanks for that and it is what I suspected. But please note in my case the IVA will have been settled by the time any windfall or compensation will be received. Under the terms of an IVA once settled it is settled and the creditors cannot reclaim extra money.

 

In my case the snowballing debt caused me to go into an IVA so if irresponsible lending is to blame then I feel I have a strong case to be compensated for what I have lost and the stress and strain to my family.

 

I would like help/ advice on how to go about proving that money was lent irresponsibly and I feel that is the hardest thing to do...I will keep searching though.

 

Penfold

[Penfold92]

Hi,

 

This is a draft letter I would like to send as soon as the IVA is settled. Please can you guys rip it apart to help me make it better?

 

address

address

address

address

05/03/2007

Complaints Department,

MINT Loans,

120 Moorgate,

Rotherham,

S60 2UA

Dear Sirs,

RE: Credit Card number XXXXXXXXXXXX

I hereby formally request true copies of the signed agreement referring to the above account number. This is my right under the legislation contained within section 77 (1) and section 78 (1) of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 - your obligation also extends to providing statements of account. I enclose a £1 cheque in payment of the statutory fee. I understand that this should be supplied within 12 working days.

As you are aware, a credit agreement that is not properly documented and signed by the customer is totally unenforceable under the CCA and therefore is a complete defense to any court claim that is subsequently issued.

As well as the above I would like to know what your lending practices are under section 13.1 of the Banking Code referring to Financial Assessment and Security? The reason for asking for an explanation is that at the time of the original application I was not only addicted to gambling, but also hugely indebt already.

The Banking Code 2003 says that “Before we lend you any money or increase your overdraft, credit card limit, or other borrowing, we will assess whether we feel you will be able to repay it.”

Now the Banking Code Guidance notes for subscribers 2003 it then states “This assessment should include looking at one or more of the following.

• The customer’s income and financial commitments
  
• How they have handled their finances in the past
  
• Information from credit reference agencies and, with the customer’s permission, others such as lenders, the customer’s employer and landlord
  
• Information the customer provides including information to prove their identity and why they want to borrow the money
  
• Credit assessment techniques, such as credit scoring
  
• Any security provided”

Please advise me, which methods were used to allow for “Responsible Lending” and coming up with a credit limit of £19,200 based on someone with debts of around £80,000 at the time? What references were taken up and please also supply me with the original application form print out from the internet.

The main issue here is not if I spent the money offered, but why it was offered in the first place? I could not spend what I did not have and hence my personal situation could not get any worse. By your irresponsible lending you directly added £20,000 to my personal debt, which equates to about a fifth of my end debt at the IVA stage.

As you will be aware my wife and I had to go into an IVA and then settle it by selling our home as we could not maintain the payments on that either. I have spoken with the Banking Code Helpdesk and the Financial Ombudsman Helpdesk and both have advised me to complain directly to you in the first instance.

I am asking for compensation for the irresponsible lending practices you used to offer me such a large limit without fully looking at my whole financial picture and hence the following personal stress, strain and eventual loss of my home.

Yours faithfully,

 

 

Penfold

[gizmo111]

I wouldsend as 2 seperate documents.

[Penfold92]

I wouldsend as 2 seperate documents.

 

Do you mean CCA request and then complain letter seperately?

 

Also I will be adding a bit about the NNC report done for the British Bankers Association Annual COnference 2004...very interesting reading!

 

Penfold

[Penfold92]

Another paragraph to add goes like this:

 

"Responsible Lending was also discussed by the National Consumer Council's address to the British Bankers Association Annual Conference 2004. This very interesting report specifically discusses Overindebtedness and evidence of irresponsible lending including the transfers of credit card balances and unsolicited credit card cheques.

The NCC wanted a Consumer Credit Directive for Responsible Lending. Were RBS present at this conference? Were any of these implimented as this was prior to my application with MINT?"

[gizmo111]

Do you mean CCA request and then complain letter seperately?

 

Penfold

 

Yes.

 

You ned to be specific in what you are actually asking them for by way of compensation.

[Penfold92]

Yes.

 

You ned to be specific in what you are actually asking them for by way of compensation.

 

Gizmo, do you or anyone else have any idea what or where I should be getting those figures from? As I am attacking from a completely different angle I do not know of anyone trying this before. I have no idea what would be reasonable?

 

What is the cost emotionally and socially of facing a huge amount of debt, having to go into an IVA and then settle it by selling your home because you cannot go bankrupt?

 

Ideas would be appreciated...

 

Penfold

[hellhasnofury]

Gizmo, do you or anyone else have any idea what or where I should be getting those figures from? As I am attacking from a completely different angle I do not know of anyone trying this before. I have no idea what would be reasonable?

 

What is the cost emotionally and socially of facing a huge amount of debt, having to go into an IVA and then settle it by selling your home because you cannot go bankrupt?

 

Ideas would be appreciated...

 

Penfold

 

Thats a hard one penfold,

 

I am not sure what you can claim for but I am sure they would be for personal suffering and the fact you now have no house. Did you see a Doctor about the stress and have that documented. Citizens Advice many be worth chatting to for ideas

 

How much money have you personally lost. and how much more expensive things are going to be for you

 

I think you should consider cost of the house. and will you be able to get another mortgage or not. If you can get a mortgage will it be at a higher rate because of your credit history. It stays on your file for 6yrs.

 

I wish you good luck in your quest and will watch your thread with interest

[gizmo111]

Gizmo, do you or anyone else have any idea what or where I should be getting those figures from? As I am attacking from a completely different angle I do not know of anyone trying this before. I have no idea what would be reasonable?

 

What is the cost emotionally and socially of facing a huge amount of debt, having to go into an IVA and then settle it by selling your home because you cannot go bankrupt?

 

Ideas would be appreciated...

 

Penfold

 

I wouldn't know where to start or even if a claim would be upheld - at the ned of the day a judge will consider the facts that you spent the money, and you short settled by entering into a IVA.

 

I suggest you take professional advice before you proceed any further.

[Gingerheid]

I agree with everything that has been said...

 

The consumer credit industry in this country is a pyramid scheme and you are the perfect example of it. Lenders are repaying each other their repayments interest and charges and recording it all as record profits. It's a [problem] that will eventually come tumbling down; first for the individuals concerned, and afterwards for the companies.

 

However, rather than just say everything that's been said before again...

 

If you want to be a glass half full person, you've actually come it out quite well in a lot of ways. There are lots of things that could have happened to you that haven't.

 

Your creditors could easily have turned down the first IVA proposal, or they could have turned down the amendment.

 

The first of these could have led to you being kicked out your home by the fastest creditor to untie the dogs' chains to a charging / possession order. This would have been a lot less organised and controlled than you having the oportunity to sell the house at a time of your chosing.

 

This would also have inevitably lead onto, as would the second option, your bankruptcy. If you had been made bankrupt in these circumstances you would inevitably have been looking at a bankruptcy restrictions order for contributing to your bankrutpcy through gambling and rash or hazardous speculation. If there was 1% chance bankruptcy wouldn't have finished your job off, a bankruptcy restrictions order would have shot that off chance straight off the face of the planet.

 

On top of all that, your clean credit record wouldn't then have re-emerged until 6 years after the end of the bankrutpcy restrictions order - which would would probably have been 5 years or more depending on how much you gambled.

 

So in a sense, I'm going to argue that your actually quite lucky. I doubt you feel lucky, but I think you have been!!!

[Penfold92]

So in a sense, I'm going to argue that your actually quite lucky. I doubt you feel lucky, but I think you have been!!!

 

 

Hi Gingerheid,

Thanks for your response. Firstly, being honest you are smack bang correct and lots of things could have gone other ways. But they did not and the creditors knew they would get nothing out of making us bankrupt. At that time when we were trying to get the IVA through the redemption penalty meant that they would not get anything and a judge would not “chuck” us out of our home with 2 young children!

So you are right I should shut up and forget the whole thing and put it behind us and move forward, which is what we were going to do.

But then I am now thinking, why should I? Is it not about time someone published/ exposed the “pyramid structure” that you so aptly described? It is merely creditors taking advantage and paying the numbers game knowing that overall they are “quid’s in” and always will be.

I may not get anywhere, but then a judge may, just may see what I am trying to say. I did not steal to do what I did. I borrowed and if a lender sees statement after statement of gambling transactions, don’t you think they should say something or stop offering more money? Just because I made every minimum payment does that mean I am not in trouble? Does it mean I am not snowballing a debt?

I am currently talking to a few litigation lawyers on this matter and if they see any point of sense in trying this… I will keep this posted.

Penfold

[hellhasnofury]

Hi penfold, just read your post.

 

I know where you are comming from, truly I do.

 

I have credit limits increasing without asking and spent the money. only on things like petrol and everyday things. I knew that I could not use my bank account because it was so stretched and they were taking charges upon charges and I was going over my overdraft.

 

I would then panic because I knew the S**t was going to hit the fan and I would have to tell the people I love that we would maybe lose our house and our home. I could not bear the shame of telling my loved ones and would look at the faces of my childrenl So I would apply for a loan or top up a loan and prey and prey I would be accepted and I was so lucky they did and would accept anything High interest rate etc, that would be ok for a while, but making minium payments and all the interest they charged I could not seem to get out off it!! and then I would start to panic and it went on and on and on.

 

I eventually came to I time and could not do I anymore I had nowhere to go. This truly was the worst time in my life. I was so ashamed. I have worked hard all my life and had nothing.

 

We are so ignorant and will be fooled by these companies who trick you into believing that they have come to your rescue and save you in the nick of time from the black hole.

 

I think not!!!!!

 

When you apply for credit, they do credit searches like Experian. They can gain all information about all the creditors you have on your file. How much you owe on each loan, credit card, mortgage etc how much you pay each month and over what term, years months, it lasts.

 

When you apply they do ask how much you earn, but don't ask for proof, because they don't really care.

 

It has made me realise, They are not remotely interested in you as an individual, they are only interested in how much money they can make from you before and after they default you.

 

I sound like a bit of a cinic(sorry spelt wrong) but I been there, seen it and wearing the teashirt.

 

I fully understand where you are coming from

 

I think the site should post your thread as a sticky or put this as a must read. There would be thousands reading it giving support and following in your footsteps.

 

I have true respect for you

[hellhasnofury]

Sorry to dicuss this but I hope you can undrstand why I ask this

 

Did you approch a Doctor or receive any counselling re your addiction for gambling.

 

This is a illness like alcoholism. eating disorders, agraphobia etc etc this is about a state of mind that you cannot help and requires treatment.

 

Would this diagnosis help you in your plight?

 

As I have stated this in my last post, had they done credit searches they would be aware of the problem.

 

Did they know

 

Or were you just an easy target.

[gizmo111]

I may not get anywhere, but then a judge may, just may see what I am trying to say. I did not steal to do what I did. I borrowed and if a lender sees statement after statement of gambling transactions, don’t you think they should say something or stop offering more money? Just because I made every minimum payment does that mean I am not in trouble? Does it mean I am not snowballing a debt?

 

All a creditor will do is check your payment history, not each individual statement, at some point you have to accept that you were also responsible by spending the money (whatever it was on) and by increasing your debt when you knew it was becoming untenable.

[Gingerheid]

But then I am now thinking, why should I? Is it not about time someone published/ exposed the “pyramid structure” that you so aptly described? It is merely creditors taking advantage and paying the numbers game knowing that overall they are “quid’s in” and always will be.

 

I don't think it's really a secret. The biggest danger for society is that they will not always be quids in. They are making profits consisting of money that doesn't exist, and no [problem] like that can carry on for ever.

 

I may not get anywhere, but then a judge may, just may see what I am trying to say. I did not steal to do what I did. I borrowed and if a lender sees statement after statement of gambling transactions, don’t you think they should say something or stop offering more money? Just because I made every minimum payment does that mean I am not in trouble? Does it mean I am not snowballing a debt?

 

There would seem to be a need for that judge to decide what reponsibility should be apportioned to each party. Maybe it shouldn't be apportioned 100% to you, but I don't think he would apportion 100% to the creditors either. This is a case where nobody won - you lost out as a result of your actions and theres, but so did they. They didn't benefit from this.

 

When I say nobody... of course... nobody except.... the people you 'gambled' with; it can it be called gambling and isn't just emptying a wallet out down an electronic drain. They won - they are the only people that got real profit consisting of real money out this.

 

Would you mind me asking where you are not laying blame at the doors of people most actively participated in setting up business that operated for the sole purpose of extracting as much money from people as possible and giving nothing in return but misery; people that operate in an industry that provides, to my eyes, no social benefit and only social problems? The people that let you fritter away stupid amounts of money, encouraged to you do so more and then legged it with the money and no loss to themselves? I'm just curious; it's coming across to me as a very odd thing that you seem to have a genuinely held grievance against creditors that lost out but the the gambling operators.

[Penfold92]

Sorry to dicuss this but I hope you can undrstand why I ask this

 

Did you approch a Doctor or receive any counselling re your addiction for gambling.

 

This is a illness like alcoholism. eating disorders, agraphobia etc etc this is about a state of mind that you cannot help and requires treatment.

 

Would this diagnosis help you in your plight?

 

As I have stated this in my last post, had they done credit searches they would be aware of the problem.

 

Did they know

 

Or were you just an easy target.

 

No I did not, my wife simply said she would leave the country with the children. No doctor needed trust me on that one! Problem was she left the finances to me all these years and I hid the statements etc so she never really knew the full story!

 

All a creditor will do is check your payment history, not each individual statement, at some point you have to accept that you were also responsible by spending the money (whatever it was on) and by increasing your debt when you knew it was becoming untenable.

 

Ok, but they have access to figures as well why not look at them too? Is that not “responsible”? That tells a story especially if things are going wrong…

 

Would you mind me asking where you are not laying blame at the doors of people most actively participated in setting up business that operated for the sole purpose of extracting as much money from people as possible and giving nothing in return but misery; people that operate in an industry that provides, to my eyes, no social benefit and only social problems? The people that let you fritter away stupid amounts of money, encouraged to you do so more and then legged it with the money and no loss to themselves? I'm just curious; it's coming across to me as a very odd thing that you seem to have a genuinely held grievance against creditors that lost out but the the gambling operators.

 

That is a very interesting point indeed, however, are you aware that their are credit cards out there that do not allow you to use ladbrokes.com or williamhill.com because they are gambling sites! Now that is responsible lending! I do not remember which ones they are, but I remember trying a few years ago and I was not allowed! Now that is being "Responsible"

 

After IVA has gone through I will try and no doubt be fobbed off and I am not trying to make a buck. Merely not allow the same thing to happen to anyone else. All I am saying it that the internet has made lots of things too easy, including gambling and the Government or FSA or someone should step in and say online gambling with other peoples money is not possible…

[Gingerheid]

Im am aware of the steps credit card companies have started to take since online gambling has become more prevalent. There are a number of other ones too, including limiting gambling to a percentage of the credit limit. Some cards take similar steps with cash, wish is also a danger sign.

 

If you'd put your mind to it, how long would it have taken you to find a way around it? You're probably not slow, so I'd say you'd come up with your first two in less than a minute.

 

... the Government or FSA or someone should step in and say online gambling with other peoples money is not possible…

 

That's sadly not possible; there's too many ways around it. The government would have liked to get certain types of other thing that are paid for by credit card off the internet and hasn't managed.

 

I think I now understand your argument as being that your lenders owed you a duty of care to ensure that you did not use their product to your own detriment through going through processes including physically monitoring people's credit card use including trends and actively comparing it against other borrowing from other sources.

 

This is a big duty of care. If I was a CC company I'd argue that there's no way I owed you all that if you didn't at least owe me in return the duty to consider your finances and not borrow what you couldn't afford to pay back.

 

And where would it end?

 

"I'm sorry sir, the card has been referred. You'll need to speak to your issuers the authorisations line. One moment."

"Hello Mr Penfold. My name's Matt, I work at the GreedyBank Credit Card authorisations centre. The reason I've declined your card is because you've been using it at FattyFreddiesFastFoods too often and I'm worried about the fitness of you and your family. Would you like me to send you some leaflets on healthy eating?"