do you have to pay parking tickets from private companies

[Butterflycollecter]

Hello

 

yesterday i received a " parking charge notice " whilst parking at Tesco's in Birmingham apparently i was parked in staff parking however this was not made clear , on closer inspection ( after i returned to my car ) there was a A3 sign from Euro Car Parks . Should i pay this ? is it enforcible ?

 

Thank you

[Howard0181]

no and no!!

[Butterflycollecter]

Cool thank you - although should i write to them or just ignore it ?

[Howard0181]

many people would ignore. If it was me this would be my response.

 

 

Your Ref: XXXXXXXX

 

Dear Sirs

 

Re: Vehicle Reg XXXXXXXXXXXXXX

 

I have recieved an invoice from you dated XXXXXX in the sum of XXXXX. Would you please advise on what basis you feel that I have entered into any contract with either your company or the landlowner.

 

Yours faithfully

 

I would not add anything else.

 

The contract is with the landlowner or parking company and the driver of the car. Please remember only a Court can make you pay this sum of money. The company will likely hound you for the money but there is very little they can do. If they pass to a debt collector you write back and state that the amount is in dispute and that if they feel they have a case then they should issue a County Court Summons.

 

I cant see they have a case. Please take the time to read the great thread on private car parking on this site.

[Butterflycollecter]

Thank you for your quick response . I have decided to write using your template. Thanks once again X

 

Ps i really feel empowered by this site .. "power to the people"

[HarrassedMum]

Thanks for that template Howard0181. I have today received a PCN from AS Secruri-t Ltd, the first communication from them, demanding £176.25 for parking at Wimborne Market on Sun 7/10/07. Before I discovered all the stuff on them and PCNs however (and this marvellous forum) I fired off an email to their appeals dept, informing them that I was the driver and wouldn't pay as I couldn't afford to so they'll have to send me to prison!! (Dramatics I know but I was in tears, having had it with vehicle fines of one form or another since moving down to Dorset a year ago!).

Can I still send them the template letter, despite fessing up as the driver?

Many thanks to anyone who can advise - these things cause so much stress!

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

HarassedMum,

 

My advice is to do nothing and see if they come back to you.

Are you the registered keeper?

[HarrassedMum]

Thanks for prompt reply Bernie...

 

Yes, I am the registered keeper....unfortunately, I also admitted in my email I'd seen the No Parking sign (can't recall being informed I'd be charged £176 for my indescretion though...). Banging my head on the desk for my petulance.....

 

Do I still have a case against these guys? I've never had a letter from them before invoicing me for a lesser amount and surely this is way over 'fair compensation' to the landowner for 'loss of revenue' despite it being a Sunday when nobody works on the industrial estate anyway......

 

Also, can they decide to pass it on to a debt collecting agency if they think they've got a case against me?

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

OK, it would be helpful if you could send me the text of the e-mail you sent by PM. Before I respond I'd like to see exactly what you said but suggest you don't post it in a public forum.

The easy way to do that is to click my name in blue to the left of this post

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

HarrassedMum,

Thanks for sending that through which I have looked at. Firstly what I am going to say is only what I would do in your shoes. You must make up your own mind on what to do and take action at your own risk.

That’s the legal disclaimer bit, now to get constructive.

Firstly, it is clear that this is a private “fee” not a regular police or LA parking ticket (which differ between each other but more importantly from the sort of thing that you have received). Police or LA parking tickets have the force of law behind them but cost a lot less. Private tickets generally do not have the force of law (but can do if carefully done) and rely not on law but ignorance, harassment and intimidation. They can and should be stood up to.

I take it that the letter through the post some days after the alleged incident was the first you heard of it. That seems to be clear from what you have sent me. It would be useful also if I could see the letter you received, I have sent you a PM with my email address if you can scan and send it to me.

Would you be able to get a picture of the “No Parking” sign that you saw, or at least the text? Don’t worry if it takes a few days.

What these people have to do is to prove that you entered into a legally binding contract with them which would have involved you providing unqualified acceptance to their terms and conditions. There is nothing in your e-mail that suggests that you did. In fact quite the contrary, it seems clear to me that had they made you aware of the charges you would not have parked there.

“They” have a further problem in that if their sign does indeed say “No Parking” and that’s it then they cannot really claim a contract but would have to base their claim on trespass and they would then have to prove their losses.

When you go back and look at the signs, have a look for signs saying that images are being recorded by CCTV. (I’m assuming that is how the alleged incident was recorded.) The Data Protection Act requires them to have them. Make a note of what the signs say.

The bottom line is, I think that you may be receiving some uncomfortable and aggressive letters over the next few weeks and months. I will happily assist you with drafting letters to deflect them. They may well try and intimidate you with threats of debt collectors and bailiffs. They can take no action against you without a court order and to get that you will have had an opportunity to defend yourself in court. BUT, THE REALITY IS that it is extremely unlikely to get to that stage.

Remember there are people here to offer help and support.

[Barnsley Boy]

Harrassed Mum,

 

Don't worry - you may not now be able to use the registered keeper defence - but this is merely the first, not the only.

 

See the sticky at the top of the Forum - Private Parking - All you need to know.

 

1. Dispute any contract.

2. Dispute the stated terms of any inferred contract.

3. If you breeched the terms of any inferred contract, the contractual remedy is "damages" which have to bear some resemblance to the actual loss suffered by the claimant.

4. Statutory remedies - "Unfair Contract terms" etc

 

In practical terms keep it simple - in next email simply state that the debt is disputed, issue proceedings within 14 days or cease and desist from all further contact.

 

Do not respond to them again unless in the unlikely event of you receiving a County Court Summons [very very unlikely - it costs them money and your defence is free]

 

The chance of you getting such a summons is almost literally 1 in 1000. I've spent a rake of time on this and other forums. Only 1 private parking company has made one so far, even then they did not turn up on the day.

[HarrassedMum]

Bernie - thanks very much....am sending you copies of the letter and invoice. Will get photo's as soon as I can and post to here if it helps others...I can see others have been caught by the Wimborne mob before so wonder what they did?

 

Barnsley Boy, thanks very much too....am still very nervous from their professional looking stationery and statement that should payment not be received within 28 days of date of issue a summons will be issued in the county court. Also, any written challenge must be received within seven days of the date of this notice (ie yesterday).

 

Should I now write to them (ignoring my earlier email) and state that I believed I wasn't committing an offence as it WAS a Sunday and the estate doesn't trade on Sundays and I wouldn't have parked on a unit's forecourt if I thought I was preventing access? (I know, this is probably irrelevant in them raking in their pound of flesh) but I'm afraid I'm a little naive where private parking firms are concerned as I've never encountered them before...

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

Bernie - thanks very much....am sending you copies of the letter and invoice. Will get photo's as soon as I can and post to here if it helps others...I can see others have been caught by the Wimborne mob before so wonder what they did?

 

Barnsley Boy, thanks very much too....am still very nervous from their professional looking stationery and statement that should payment not be received within 28 days of date of issue a summons will be issued in the county court. Also, any written challenge must be received within seven days of the date of this notice (ie yesterday).

This is the reaction they want and depend on. They rely on people feeling scared and confusing what they are doing with an LA ticket. They also rely on the laws of numbers, just a percentage of people paying up is a result for them.

Should I now write to them (ignoring my earlier email) and state that I believed I wasn't committing an offence as it WAS a Sunday and the estate doesn't trade on Sundays and I wouldn't have parked on a unit's forecourt if I thought I was preventing access? (I know, this is probably irrelevant in them raking in their pound of flesh) but I'm afraid I'm a little naive where private parking firms are concerned as I've never encountered them before...

My view is not to. They will not issue a summons as they know they won't win. They will try some intimidation first but with support from here you will be able to stand firm.

[HarrassedMum]

Thanks guys!!

 

Will await (with dread) the next letter then....

[Barnsley Boy]

Harassed Mum

At the risk of sounding like Bernie's echo - I agree with everything he's just said.

 

You are making the mistake of appealing to the Parking Company's better nature. They simply haven't got one - they just want your money. In all circumstances that people have reported on, appeals howsoever made, for whatever reason, are summarily rejected.

 

Ignoring is by far the best tactic. As B the B so rightly said, the people here will support you all the way.

[HarrassedMum]

Ah Thanks BB and B The B!!!

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

HarrassedMum,

 

I have read the letter and pcn you sent me. Am I right in thinking that the pcn came with the letter rather than being stuck to your windscreen.

 

I can fully see why this has spooked you. It does look official but if you look beyond the surface you can start to pick holes.

 

I'm identifying some of them as pointers for others and the future:

 

The Parking Charge Notice

States: "It is an offence for an unauthorised person to remove or interfere with this notice". It is? Cite the statute or case law then!? How does a person know if they are "authorised"?

States: "Breach of Rules and Regulations" so it's a breach of contract then is it, not trespass.

States : "In consideration of which you have agreed to pay the sum of £[loads]" Have you really? You pay consideration in discharge of a contract not for breaking one. If you break one then the law on penalties applies (ie they are unlawful except in narrow circumstances).

States: You were "illegally parked" Cite the statute or case law then!?

States: "It is an offence to transfer or accept tickets". It is? Cite the statute or case law then!?

States: "Photographs will only be sent at a cost of £5". Nah, I'll wait for the evidence bundle when you have to "disclose" it. That'll be free!

States: [Appeals must be received] "within seven days of the date of this notice". Ignores Interpretation Act, unreasonable as the pcn was not received within seven days of its own date.

 

The Covering Letter

States: "the time limits for payment and appeals can be read as commencing from the issue date or this letter". How kind! What's the "issue date"? What about Interpretation Act?

States: "since this is a civil matter it is decided in law that the registered keeper is vicariously responsible". Oh yeah I forgot that!!! Please be good enough to refresh my memory by citing the statute and case law that decided this?

States: "If you are not the person who the letter is addressed to then you must return the letter and all enclosures if any back to the company immediately. It is possible that sometimes the debtors do deny their identity and we therefore request you supply us a copy of a current utility bill (eg gas/electric/land line telephone) or a current tennancy agreement in your name as proof of occupancy." Must I? It's you who has to prove stuff not me! Such impertinence!

[HarrassedMum]

Yes BB it was stapled to the letter - don't recall seeing anything on the windscreen at the time either.

God, it looks so unnerving though to have to have the wherewithall to nitpick all their statements - how do you have that knowledge?

[HarrassedMum]

So sorry.....should have addressed that to B The B, not BB!

[Barnsley Boy]

VERY comprehensive reply from Bernie the Bolt

 

Harassed Mum - what Bernie's excellent dissection of the documentation means in practical terms is that the Private Parking Company have shot their bolt [no pun intended Bernie].

 

They are staking everything on you falling for it being official. Now that you've rumbled them there is nowhere for them to go. There is a vanishingly small chance of them risking their paperwork being held up to scrutiny in a County Court, the Judge would take a dim view - probably clap them in irons.

 

You will get bull**** posted to you [all 2nd class] but stand firm, see these shysters for what they are - pathetic chancers who huff and puff but are completely toothless.

[HarrassedMum]

God they are scumbags aren't they! Just think how intimidated older people feel to get mail like that too! I'm going to complain to the local council next week - its obviously a good way of [causing problems] out-of-town weekend market visitors by the unit holders - must boost their income no end hey?

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

Be interested to know what the council say. Just don't expect them to be too clued up.

[mazza's mum]

Has anyone had dealings with Controlaccount? They are the debt collecting agency of Euro car parks, I believe. Am having serious probs with them. My daughter go a parking ticket - didn;t tel me but tried to negociate a payment schedule with them as she was too broke to pay. She did all the right things - tried to ring, e-mail etc eventually spoke to an employee who agreed a scheldule of payments. daughter duly paid one instalment via bank - next thing they had hiked up the charge by £50 to £ 262 with threatening letter, saying final chance to avoid litigation etc. She again managed to get thro but having no success with said employee asked to speak to her boss. got thro to him - he agreed that she owed £200 not the amount being demanded. I spoke to this chap and he agreed that £200 would be the final payment and that there would be no outstanding sums to pay. I duly paid this amount by credit card and was assured that i would have a letter stating that there would be no further outstanding amounts (this was on 31/10/07) No such letter has been received but imagine my horror when today my daughter received another threatening letter demanding another £50! Haven't yet been in touch as office closed but what advice can anyone give me - grateful for all suggestions1 Many thanks

[Muggerbee]

Mazzasmum

 

try this letter :

 

Dear sirs

 

With reference to you letter dated xxxx and you refernce of xxx

 

I would advise you that at no point did i owe any debt to your client and in fact i paid £ xxx of money to yoursevlves on xx xx xxxx in error and under duress assuming that you were in a legal position to demand this sum from me due to the nature of your paperwork and your presentaions to me therein regarding the legal aspects of the same.

 

After having sought legal advice, I am now aware that this was in fact an unenforceable penalty based on an implied contract of dubious merit. As such i reserve my right to claim this sum plus costs and statutory interest from your client as well as any liquidated damages I may have incurred.

 

I would be grateful if you could pass this communication to your client and advise them that this can be construed as a "letter before action" , It would be in the interests of all concerned if you would confirm your receipt of this letter and your cooperation in passing it on verbatim to your client.

 

I must caution you that any further communications from yourselves will be considered as criminal harrasment and will be reported to the appropriate authorities, I am sure you are aware that such behaviour will not be tolerated by the regulatory bodies, if indeed you are accredited, and could jeopardise your continued trading.

 

I await your immediate confirmation that you have indeed communicated this to your client and that you will no longer be contacting me with any inference that you have any right whatsoever to collect an unsubstiantated debt from me.

 

If at any point your client obtains a county court judgement against me , then i will be happy to reengage in discussions with yourselves.

[Guest perky88]

And muggerbee (apparantly, this man has a monkey as his picture on other sites ... will let you all draw your own conculsions to this) is any legal basis for your letter.

 

PLEASE PLEASE PELASE only reply if you have a case you can clearly show a PPC took a company to court and the driver won.

 

If you CAN NOT .. Please do not reply ... (I know you cant as there are none... I dont know the reasons but there are none !!! - and I dont mean judgements because someone never turned up .. I mean judgemnts after a CORRECT legal discussion).

 

muggerbee is another "internet/armchair lawyer" .. no experience to back him up just lots of cases he would have won if given the chance ...mmmmmmmm