Credit Resolution Services (CRS) Extortionist!

[dcwinter]

Don't give in and whatever happens do not panic!!!

 

They don't own your debt so what they are doing is illegal.

 

Keep fighting and tell them you will not be paying charges. My soliictor says that it is incredibly unlikely that they will take it to court (they can't claim back their costs form you and it'll cost more to do it than you owe anyway.

 

The trick is, according to my solicitor, to keep stalling them. Make sure that you write to them requesting a copy of the contract you signed etc. That'll be a good week.

 

I thnk we should all take these guys to court as a joint claim... it'd begreat to do it as a group. I'm gonna write to my MP too to see what he says.

 

dc

[Gettingrippedoff]

Thanks dc I will send a letter to them by recorded post tomorrow.

I think I should be entitled to legal aid so may go and see a solicitor, just to clarify the situation.

 

Thanks for your help

[havinastella]

Thanks dc I will send a letter to them by recorded post tomorrow.

I think I should be entitled to legal aid so may go and see a solicitor, just to clarify the situation.

 

Thanks for your help

 

Make sure you ask if they are now the legal owner of the debt. I have a cunning plan if they say they are.

 

Jogs

[Gettingrippedoff]

Ok I will ask them, and let you know, thanks

[dcwinter]

Make sure you ask if they are now the legal owner of the debt. I have a cunning plan if they say they are.

 

Jogs

 

What would your plan be? I'm really intrigued because that is the case with me - they are not the legal owner of the bebt.

Edited March 17, 2009 by dcwinter

[thebees123]

DC ......great to hear that you're making headway. I'm working on an approach which I'll share shortly. Can you pls advise why the costs are not payable - earlier posts refer. Thanks. Regards

The Bees 123

[thebees123]

Hi

 

these guys panic you into doing things.

 

I've noted you're intention to get legal advice which is good.

 

Harlands and CRS are effectively the same outfit - different names just different games.

 

Your membership agreement is crucial in terms of what it says or doesn't about notice to cancel and rights if any to refer to collection agency and recover costs. Dig it out and look through it. If you haven't a copy ask for one from CRS/leisure company.

 

I can empathise with the usual denials of having ever received a cancellation notice etc.

 

The leisure company with whom you had the membership agreement and not Harlands (merely direct debit collectors in this case?) may have breached 2002 OFT rules regulating health club/gym membership agreements, but I'm sure Harlands/CRS will have certainly breached several of the 2003/2006 OFT provisions effectively regulating debt collection (I've given you two examples - see later -to start your list).

 

I've formally lodged a complaint with the OFT against a leisure provider, and Harlands/CRS who have breached as many as 10 separate provisions.

 

In your case issues around summons but no summons (psychological harrassment), disproportionate costs in relation to debt, are two off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are other, infringements - may I suggest you access a copy (link elsewhere on this thread) and work through it, mapping contraventions. When you're done if you feel inclined then you may wish to lodge a complaint with OFT, and can I encourage you to do so.

 

Essentially unless OFT gather intelligence on these outfits and their dodgy dealings nothing much will happen. OFT will be obliged to investigate bona fide complaints (not wild rants) and may revoke Harland Services Consumer Credit licence amongst other things. Even if Harlands attempt to claim they know nothing of CRS (LOL) it won't wash as if they are associated with dodgy outfits they will still be sorted out - this effectively is written into the code.

 

Good luck.

 

The Bees 123

 

PS

DC are you able to confirm why your costs are not recoverable. Is it because your membership agreement didn't allow for this?

Edited March 20, 2009 by thebees123

[dcwinter]

Hi Bees,

 

Yes, pretty much that is the case - I think that my solicitor is arguing this, but I will confirm soon with a copy of the letter (when I recieve it!).

 

Can you post a copy of the OFT complaint so that I can send one too. DOn't know where to start with it!

 

The more complaints they get the better as they'll be forced into action eventually!

 

Cheers

 

DC

[lsb65]

Hi my son,s having the same problems with Harlands. He dos'nt owe them anything, but they say he owes them £89 in chargers, relating to gym membership at the local council run gym.

 

He's refusing to pay, so they rang the other council run sports hall in town were he plays/coaches basketball and told the manager not to let him on the premises, because he owes them money!

[Gettingrippedoff]

Hi

 

I have received a letter back from CRS with a copy of my agreement.

 

I asked them in my letter if they now own the debt and they have replied saying they have been instructed to act on behalf of Harlands, as I was duly advised by letter.

 

So no real answer there?!

 

They want me to call them on receipt of this letter to tell them when my solicitors appointment is. They have suddenly gone all polite saying they look forward to hearing from me.

 

So next step is finding a solicitor and seeing where I go from here.

[thebees123]

Hi, can't remember what I previously advised but you need to read your agreement. I think as explained this will indicate what rights if any they have to refer to agency and collect costs if it is a membership agreement. Should appear under default/non payment/cancellation heading or similar. And yes plug in a solicitor if you can get legal aid. I think I may have advised re OFT excesive charging and pyschological harrassment etc your call though..........Avoid phone contact and stick to email if poss. Good luck

The Bees123

[thebees123]

Yes I did advise re OFT et etc............I reallly think is where there soft underbelly is...............if you want to turn the tables a little this I think is your best shot - why do you think there (for the moment) behaving a little bit more civily

[thebees123]

Hi my son,s having the same problems with Harlands. He dos'nt owe them anything, but they say he owes them £89 in chargers, relating to gym membership at the local council run gym.

 

He's refusing to pay, so they rang the other council run sports hall in town were he plays/coaches basketball and told the manager not to let him on the premises, because he owes them money!

 

Hi

 

if this true, really true, and your son can prove it then it is outrageous:

 

a) firstly there is a serious breach of the Data Protection Act and the company could/is very likely to be prosecuted

 

b) OFT - may look to take action against Harlands if CRS are up to these antics

 

c) the manager is in serious trouble if he has tried to exclude your son , and a complaint to your councillor/MP and local authority, along the right lines will have them really worried.

 

This is illegal, unethical and should be prosecuted. But you need to do A & B definitely (although OFT may assist with dual complaint).

 

Good luck

 

The Bees 123:)

[thebees123]

Hi Bees,

 

Yes, pretty much that is the case - I think that my solicitor is arguing this, but I will confirm soon with a copy of the letter (when I recieve it!).

 

Can you post a copy of the OFT complaint so that I can send one too. DOn't know where to start with it!

 

The more complaints they get the better as they'll be forced into action eventually!

 

Cheers

 

DC

 

Hi DC

 

thanks I would like to know what was in solicitor's ltr on this point.

 

I will provide copy text of OFT ltr I've written in case it helps. I need to tidy it up a little (sanitise it) first......so will post asap.

 

Good luck

 

Regards

 

thebees123

[thebees123]

Hi

 

these guys panic you into doing things.

 

I've noted you're intention to get legal advice which is good.

 

Harlands and CRS are effectively the same outfit - different names just different games.

 

Your membership agreement is crucial in terms of what it says or doesn't about notice to cancel and rights if any to refer to collection agency and recover costs. Dig it out and look through it. If you haven't a copy ask for one from CRS/leisure company.

 

I can empathise with the usual denials of having ever received a cancellation notice etc.

 

The leisure company with whom you had the membership agreement and not Harlands (merely direct debit collectors in this case?) may have breached 2002 OFT rules regulating health club/gym membership agreements, but I'm sure Harlands/CRS will have certainly breached several of the 2003/2006 OFT provisions effectively regulating debt collection (I've given you two examples - see later -to start your list).

 

I've formally lodged a complaint with the OFT against a leisure provider, and Harlands/CRS who have breached as many as 10 separate provisions.

 

In your case issues around summons but no summons (psychological harrassment), disproportionate costs in relation to debt, are two off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are other, infringements - may I suggest you access a copy (link elsewhere on this thread) and work through it, mapping contraventions. When you're done if you feel inclined then you may wish to lodge a complaint with OFT, and can I encourage you to do so.

 

Essentially unless OFT gather intelligence on these outfits and their dodgy dealings nothing much will happen. OFT will be obliged to investigate bona fide complaints (not wild rants) and may revoke Harland Services Consumer Credit licence amongst other things. Even if Harlands attempt to claim they know nothing of CRS (LOL) it won't wash as if they are associated with dodgy outfits they will still be sorted out - this effectively is written into the code.

 

Good luck.

 

The Bees 123

 

PS

DC are you able to confirm why your costs are not recoverable. Is it because your membership agreement didn't allow for this?

 

Getting ripped off thi s advice/suggestion was specifically for you, although it may be of use to others. The answer may lie here ...........worth a try.....they've behaved improperly , against OFT guidelines....if they dish rubbish (eg as they have with phoney summons etc......)........but up to you. The problem though is if these things are not reported to OFT and most people don't bother it allows these cowboys to continue to prey on others in the same way.

 

Regards

Thebees123

[lsb65]

Hi

 

if this true, really true, and your son can prove it then it is outrageous:

 

a) firstly there is a serious breach of the Data Protection Act and the company could/is very likely to be prosecuted

 

b) OFT - may look to take action against Harlands if CRS are up to these antics

 

c) the manager is in serious trouble if he has tried to exclude your son , and a complaint to your councillor/MP and local authority, along the right lines will have them really worried.

 

This is illegal, unethical and should be prosecuted. But you need to do A & B definitely (although OFT may assist with dual complaint).

 

Good luck

 

The Bees 123:)

 

Hi thank you for your reply.

 

I've been in touch with the OFT. They were quite helpfull. They've advised me on what to do next, including complaining to the manager and local council. Which is what I plan to do today.

 

One thing I will say. The gentleman I spoke to was,nt at all surprised when I told him about Harland's, and there tactics!

 

I'll let you know what happens.

[thebees123]

Good to hear you're making some progress.

 

OFT though should have treated your call as a complaint. It is one. Specifically - OFT Collection guidance - 2003 (2006 updated) - therefore you may wish to lodge it with them (maximum pain for Harlands/CRS) -

 

includes a section on .......psychological harassment........

which is " putting pressure on debtors......which is considered to be oppressive" (section 2.5)

 

Section 2.6 provides examples of unfair practices............

in particular subsection (i) is what you need to quote - "disclosing or threatening to disclose debt details to a third party " . This is what they deliberately did!

 

You may want to explore section 2.4 (f) if your son is genuinely not liable, otherwise just stick to 2.5

 

There is also a serious breach of the Data Protection Act. In particular an unlawful /unauthorised disclosure has been made in contravention of the Act. This was deliberate from what you've said and not accidental so very serious! To complain (there is an email form at Information Commissioner's Office - ICO).

 

Give them hell .........they deserve it. Unless these formal channels are used though they will not be sorted out.

 

Good luck

 

The bees 123

[alternative-answer]

I had a 12 month agreement with a gym, I exceeded the 12 month minimum term and requested to give 1 months notice. They said it is 3 months which would have made it a 15 month term. I wrote to them stating I would be giving them 1 month as I had not signed a 15 month agreement, they declined the offer and insisted it is 3 months a per the contract. I used the unfair terms in consumer contracts stating that they need only give 1 months notice to terminate my agreement but required 3 from me. This creates an imbalance in the contract and under the UTCC 1999 this agreement could not be enforced. They have now passed it to a collection agent CRS, a 3rd party, where no contract exists between myself and the 3rd party agent acting for the gym. CRS added £60 in charges which I believe is unreasonable, I have challenged CRS about their role in this matter, asking them for proof of claim that their exists a contract between them and myself. They insist that they have jurisdiction in this matter however I beg to differ. Under the Uniform Commercial Code (UCC), in order for another party to have a claim over you, both parties need to have contracted in the first place. CRS clearly do not know the law and are acting fraudulently against people.

[dcwinter]

Hi isb65,

 

Please please please make sure you complain to the Information Commissioners Office as I already have done - any breach of the Data Protection Act caries a minimum £5000 fine I believe.

 

One more complaint and it may well mean they get a massive fine.

 

Anyway, everyone here MAKE SURE YOU DRAG OUT ANY DEALINGS WITH CRS AS LONG AS POSSIBLE - WASTE THEIR TIME WITH IRRELEVENT PHONE CALLS LIKE I'M DOING. It's quite amusing, because you soon realise that they can't do a thing really. It's all psychological. Don't let them beat you - we can all beat them!!!!

 

 

------------------------------------------------------

 

By the way, thebees is right - avoid phone contact normally. However, I call to say "have you received my letter" etc. to waste time and also when they ask questions I say I can't reply by phone but will by letter... Can spread this out over 20mins. Means they make no money out of you longer term.

 

DC

Edited March 23, 2009 by dcwinter
Added futher advice

[thebees123]

I had a 12 month agreement with a gym, I exceeded the 12 month minimum term and requested to give 1 months notice. They said it is 3 months which would have made it a 15 month term. I wrote to them stating I would be giving them 1 month as I had not signed a 15 month agreement, they declined the offer and insisted it is 3 months a per the contract. I used the unfair terms in consumer contracts stating that they need only give 1 months notice to terminate my agreement but required 3 from me. This creates an imbalance in the contract and under the UTCC 1999 this agreement could not be enforced. They have now passed it to a collection agent CRS, a 3rd party, where no contract exists between myself and the 3rd party agent acting for the gym. CRS added £60 in charges which I believe is unreasonable, I have challenged CRS about their role in this matter, asking them for proof of claim that their exists a contract between them and myself. They insist that they have jurisdiction in this matter however I beg to differ. Under the Uniform Commercial Code (UCC), in order for another party to have a claim over you, both parties need to have contracted in the first place. CRS clearly do not know the law and are acting fraudulently against people.

 

Hi...sounds very familiar same tricks same culprits.........In addition to what you/ve said probably strongest remedy lies with an official complaint to OFT.

 

2002 OFT Code of Practice relating to Gyms and Health Clubs - some sections infringed.

 

2003(updated 2006) OFT code regarding collection activities infringed in several rspects.

 

If you haven't got your membership agreement may I suggest you get a copy. As you probably know the terms and conditions will indicate what notice you have to give and how long this is. Usually one months notice. Will also set out your rights, if any, to issue to collection agency.

 

If you do one thing to try and remedy this an official complaint to OFT is probably the best bet. Good luck.

 

The Bees 123

[alternative-answer]

It does say 3 months notice in the agreement, however my argument is having exceeded the 12 minimum contract this would make it 15 months, I did not sign up to 15 months, I made them an offer of 1 months notice in order to stay in honour and they declined it. When contracting one must always make offers in order not to fall into dishonour and as it stands I have been offering CRS to prove that there is a contract between myself and CRS. The fact is there is not and they know it, they have no jurisdiction in this matter. I will be making a complaint to the OFT, please can anyone provide phone numbers and addresses to contact them on.

[lsb65]

Hi Thebees123 and dcwinter

Thank you for your replies, and advice.

 

I've sent a letter off to the Council about the manager of the sports centre, I'll get in touch with Commisions office as well, hopefully today.

Let you know my progress when theres anything to tell. Thanks again

x

[thebees123]

It does say 3 months notice in the agreement, however my argument is having exceeded the 12 minimum contract this would make it 15 months, I did not sign up to 15 months, I made them an offer of 1 months notice in order to stay in honour and they declined it. When contracting one must always make offers in order not to fall into dishonour and as it stands I have been offering CRS to prove that there is a contract between myself and CRS. The fact is there is not and they know it, they have no jurisdiction in this matter. I will be making a complaint to the OFT, please can anyone provide phone numbers and addresses to contact them on.

 

Hi.....I hear what you're saying.

 

I think unless the three month notice period is regarded as an unfair term (you may wish to look specifically at OFT's 2002 code of practice on Health Club Membership Agreements which should address this point (The reference is on Page 3 of this thread ), the better (best?) line of attack is as you've put it, the jurisdiction of CRS. This is where again you may wish to double check as to what is said, if anything, about referring defaulters/ alleged defaulters to collection agencies and for their costs to be recoverable/enforceable. If it's silent or if other related protocols are broken (2003/2006 collection code applies - again earlier part of thread refers) then your path is to the OFT. They can be contacted by email at [email protected] Their web address is The Office of Fair Trading: making markets work well for consumers

 

Good luck and please keep this thread updated with progress.

 

The bees 123

[dcwinter]

Just had a letter from them about the money I 'owe'.

 

hey haven't heard from my solicitor yet so he gave me some real stick over the phone.

 

I'll post what my stupid letter stated later on.

 

The bees123 - please can you tell me waht you told OFT?

 

dc

[thebees123]

DC.................that's why it's best not to ring them unless you have no other choice!!!!

 

You are unclear about what the letter you have received actually means.........earlier you have said you/your solicitor has said you're not liable for costs - I have presumed because your membership agreement is silent on this...so it's a little unclear........??

 

Your solicitor is supposed to be helping you. I hope you have been in touch with him/her and politely explaining that the hole has just a little bigger so what is he/she going to do?

 

I will post OFT ltr for you to tinker with (later tonight if I get time or if not tomorrow). There will be several strands you can use to officially complain. It will be best to stick to the facts that matter and the provisons they appear to have infringed, as otherwise you will run the risk of devaluing your case if you include iffy allegations and things that won't stick. This will switch the investigators off rather than on - one has to portray things in the best light.

 

Once again good luck