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    • further polished WS using above suggestions and also included couple of more modifications highlighted in orange are those ok to include?   Background   1.1  The Defendant received the Parking Charge Notice (PCN) on the 06th of January 2020 following the vehicle being parked at Arla Old Dairy, South Ruislip on the 05th of December 2019.   Unfair PCN   2.1  On 19th December 2023 the Defendant sent the Claimant's solicitors a CPR request.  As shown in Exhibit 1 (pages 7-13) sent by the solicitors the signage displayed in their evidence clearly shows a £60.00 parking charge notice (which will be reduced to £30 if paid within 14 days of issue).  2.2  Yet the PCN sent by the Claimant is for a £100.00 parking charge notice (reduced to £60 if paid within 30 days of issue).   2.3        The Claimant relies on signage to create a contract.  It is unlawful for the Claimant to write that the charge is £60 on their signs and then send demands for £100.    2.4        The unlawful £100 charge is also the basis for the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.  No Locus Standi  3.1  I do not believe a contract with the landowner, that is provided following the defendant’s CPR request, gives MET Parking Services a right to bring claims in their own name. Definition of “Relevant contract” from the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4,  2 [1] means a contract Including a contract arising only when the vehicle was parked on the relevant land between the driver and a person who is-   (a) the owner or occupier of the land; or   (b) Authorised, under or by virtue of arrangements made by the owner or occupier of the land, to enter into a contract with the driver requiring the payment of parking charges in respect of the parking of the vehicle on the land. According to https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2006/46/section/44   For a contract to be valid, it requires a director from each company to sign and then two independent witnesses must confirm those signatures.   3.2  The Defendant requested to see such a contract in the CPR request.  The fact that no contract has been produced with the witness signatures present means the contract has not been validly executed. Therefore, there can be no contract established between MET Parking Services and the motorist. Even if “Parking in Electric Bay” could form a contract (which it cannot), it is immaterial. There is no valid contract.  Illegal Conduct – No Contract Formed   4.1 At the time of writing, the Claimant has failed to provide the following, in response to the CPR request from myself.   4.2        The legal contract between the Claimant and the landowner (which in this case is Standard Life Investments UK) to provide evidence that there is an agreement in place with landowner with the necessary authority to issue parking charge notices and to pursue payment by means of litigation.   4.3 Proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and country Planning Act 1990. Lack of planning permission is a criminal offence under this Act and no contract can be formed where criminality is involved.   4.4        I also do not believe the claimant possesses these documents.   No Keeper Liability   5.1        The defendant was not the driver at the time and date mentioned in the PCN and the claimant has not established keeper liability under schedule 4 of the PoFA 2012. In this matter, the defendant puts it to the claimant to produce strict proof as to who was driving at the time.   5.2 The claimant in their Notice To Keeper also failed to comply with PoFA 2012 Schedule 4 section 9[2][f] while mentioning “the right to recover from the keeper so much of that parking charge as remains unpaid” where they did not include statement “(if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met)”.     5.3         The claimant did not mention parking period, times on the photographs are separate from the PCN and in any case are that arrival and departure times not the parking period since their times include driving to and from the parking space as a minimum and can include extra time to allow pedestrians and other vehicles to pass in front.    Protection of Freedoms Act 2012   The notice must -   (a) specify the vehicle, the relevant land on which it was parked and the period of parking to which the notice relates;  22. In the persuasive judgement K4GF167G - Premier Park Ltd v Mr Mathur - Horsham County Court – 5 January 2024 it was on this very point that the judge dismissed this claim.  5.4  A the PCN does not comply with the Act the Defendant as keeper is not liable.  No Breach of Contract   6.1       No breach of contract occurred because the PCN and contract provided as part of the defendant’s CPR request shows different post code, PCN shows HA4 0EY while contract shows HA4 0FY. According to PCN defendant parked on HA4 0EY which does not appear to be subject to the postcode covered by the contract.  6.2         The entrance sign does not mention anything about there being other terms inside the car park so does not offer a contract which makes it only an offer to treat,  Interest  7.1  It is unreasonable for the Claimant to delay litigation for  Double Recovery   7.2  The claim is littered with made-up charges.  7.3  As noted above, the Claimant's signs state a £60 charge yet their PCN is for £100.  7.4  As well as the £100 parking charge, the Claimant seeks recovery of an additional £70.  This is simply a poor attempt to circumvent the legal costs cap at small claims.  7.5 Since 2019, many County Courts have considered claims in excess of £100 to be an abuse of process leading to them being struck out ab initio. An example, in the Caernarfon Court in VCS v Davies, case No. FTQZ4W28 on 4th September 2019, District Judge Jones-Evans stated “Upon it being recorded that District Judge Jones- Evans has over a very significant period of time warned advocates (...) in many cases of this nature before this court that their claim for £60 is unenforceable in law and is an abuse of process and is nothing more than a poor attempt to go behind the decision of the Supreme Court v Beavis which inter alia decided that a figure of £160 as a global sum claimed in this case would be a penalty and not a genuine pre-estimate of loss and therefore unenforceable in law and if the practice continued, he would treat all cases as a claim for £160 and therefore a penalty and unenforceable in law it is hereby declared (…) the claim is struck out and declared to be wholly without merit and an abuse of process.”  7.6 In Claim Nos. F0DP806M and F0DP201T, District Judge Taylor echoed earlier General Judgment or Orders of District Judge Grand, stating ''It is ordered that the claim is struck out as an abuse of process. The claim contains a substantial charge additional to the parking charge which it is alleged the Defendant contracted to pay. This additional charge is not recoverabl15e under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, Schedule 4 nor with reference to the judgment in Parking Eye v Beavis. It is an abuse of process from the Claimant to issue a knowingly inflated claim for an additional sum which it is not entitled to recover. This order has been made by the court of its own initiative without a hearing pursuant to CPR Rule 3.3(4)) of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998...''  7.7 In the persuasive case of G4QZ465V - Excel Parking Services Ltd v Wilkinson – Bradford County Court -2 July 2020 (Exhibit 4) the judge had decided that Excel had won. However, due to Excel adding on the £60 the Judge dismissed the case.  7.8        The addition of costs not previously specified on signage are also in breach of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, Schedule 2, specifically paras 6, 10 and 14.   7.9        It is the Defendant’s position that the Claimant in this case has knowingly submitted inflated costs and thus the entire claim should be similarly struck out in accordance with Civil Procedure Rule 3.3(4).   In Conclusion   8.1        I invite the court to dismiss the claim.  Statement of Truth  I believe that the facts stated in this witness statement are true. I understand that proceedings for contempt of court may be brought against anyone who makes, or causes to be made, a false statement in a document verified by a statement of truth without an honest belief in its truth.   
    • Well the difference is that in all our other cases It was Kev who was trying to entrap the motorist so sticking two fingers up to him and daring him to try court was from a position of strength. In your case, sorry, you made a mistake so you're not in the position of strength.  I've looked on Google Maps and the signs are few & far between as per Kev's MO, but there is an entrance sign saying "Pay & Display" (and you've admitted in writing that you knew you had to pay) and the signs by the payment machines do say "Sea View Car Park" (and you've admitted in writing you paid the wrong car park ... and maybe outed yourself as the driver). Something I missed in my previous post is that the LoC is only for one ticket, not two. Sorry, but it's impossible to definitively advise what to so. Personally I'd probably gamble on Kev being a serial bottler of court and reply with a snotty letter ridiculing the signage (given you mentioned the signage in your appeal) - but it is a gamble.  
    • No! What has happened is that your pix were up-to-date: 5 hours' maximum stay and £100 PCN. The lazy solicitors have sent ancient pictures: 4 hours' maximum stay and £60 PCN. Don't let on!  Let them be hoisted by their own lazy petard in the court hearing (if they don't bottle before).
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pt2537 v Black Horse Finance


pt2537
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Hi perseus

 

i have not had any written contact from black horse, however i did have a call from the local branch manager at southampton the other day telling me that they are dealing with my letter (LBA). my partner took the call and they wouldnt say too much to her. anyway i called them back and i got the idea that they were trying to delay me by saying that they were looking into it so i re-itterated to them that if nothing in the way of a settlement is forth coming by the 7th feb then its off to the county court and the bit i included about being a second year law student when they started telling me i was wrong regarding the law certainly stopped them in their tracks.anyway i will update this post on or before the 7th feb.

 

 

good luck all

 

regards

paul

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I began action with Black Horse on 15/1. Needless to say my prelim. letter was ignored. I sent copies to Cardiff (where my account is held) and to the Asset Finance office in Barnet. I had all the figures I needed on full statements I had asked for weeks ago; before thinking about recovering charges. Sent my LBA earlier today by recorded delivery direct to the Asset Finance Office. I am expecting (eh!) a reply but not holding my breath.

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people I dont want to teach you how to suck eggs..... but if you ever want to suck an egg this is proberbly the best way...... :p

Sending the SAR is the tried and tested route... but I simply phoned customer services and requested the breakdown and I recieved it within a week.... free of charge. Secondly all the banks/loan companys will ignore your letters initially or allocate a reply deadline fitting within their own internal complaints procedures... just ignore THEIR time scales and forward your next letter whether that be the LBA or a letter informing them that action has been taken against them. As for the missing recorded deliveries/ unsigned for recorded deliveries once again once their deadline has elapsed that YOU set proceed to your next step. In the vast majority of cases you will not get any real response or indeed refunds untill your claim has been submitted so you really should'nt allow the SAR/LBA process to drag on by their time wasting, although obviously thats not to say these early steps can be ignored in their entirety.

 

MrP

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i totally agree Mr P , it would seem that black horse are merely trying to delay me by saying "its being dealt with so wait til i get a reply" still ive started filling out the N1 form ready to take it to the courts on the 7th.

 

will update once anything happens

 

regards

paul

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Sent my LBA to Black Horse Asset and Finance Office recorded delivery on Thursday, 1.2 It was received on Friday,2.2.Envelope on my door mat today, 3.2 from BH Acknowledging receipt of LBA but informing me that it's been sent to Cardiff " so that the relevant department within the Cardiff Office can ignore it, oops!, can make a response". Probably same reply as my prelim. letter. I didn't get one. Pat on the back to Royal Mail. Second class frank on BH envelope, delivered next day.

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michael make sure you still follow the prelim letter (14 day notice) and then LBA (14 day notice) before issuing a claim because you need to demonstrate to a judge that you have given them adequate time to reach a mutually agreeable decision.

 

MrP

:o

I'm afraid I didnt bother ,and I already have the claim in now , I have done the same with Nationwide and with Lloydstsb I never sent any letters because I did not have time as the charges were applied to my account on the 1st of Feb 2001 , so , if I had written to them first , they would have replied that the charges were over six years old

anyway , it will be intresting to see how my claims turn out

thank you

Michael

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just a quick update.

 

spoke to black horse finance centre manager who advised me that they would not be contesting my claim. he said that he will call again on thursday to let me know when things will be settled and asked if i would hold off court action.

 

i replied that i have filled out the N1 and as it is not due to be filed until thursday i will wait until thursday afternoon until i go to the county court to get the ball rolling. i explained that he should have enough time to call me thursday and if he didnt the its off to court we go( he seemed a little surprised by that :lol::lol::lol:) still im not gonna let them dictate the time frame

 

i will update this thread when / if i get a reply on thursday

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Hi joesoap

 

i spoke to cardiff office and found them to be f**king useless to be honest,all they seemed interested in was trying to convince me to take more finance and when i explained i was not interested in finance and that they had levied unlawful charges( in my opinion) against my accounts they became rude and told me not to quote the law to them. as a result a formal complaint has been lodged with their head offfice.

 

i hope you have more luck

 

 

regards

paul

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Well isn't that just fine and effing dandy? Beaten off Fulham, now this. Is your account held at Cardiff or Soton? I had sent my LBA rec deliv to Barnet (asset and finance) but they passed it on to Cardiff. I've complained numerous times lately on my son's behalf direct to the chairman's office at LTSB. Looks like it could be my turn.

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hi joesoap

 

no probs, my account was based in the southampton branch. however the calls go initially through to cardiff call center at st william house, tresillian terrace.so thats why i end up speaking to cardiff.

 

i had 2 accounts with black horse,one was a straight forward loan which any branch could deal with and one was a flexible reserve account which only southampton were authorised to deal with

 

i hope this helps

 

regards

paul

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Sorry for jumping in, PT. So, if both my accounts get me phone calls from Cardiff, SAR should go there, yes?

 

OB

Please read the Stickies and FAQs. Your question may have been answered already.

 

Old Bear vs. NatWest - won after first letter £600

Mrs Bear vs. Studio - won after first letter £360

Old Bear vs. Abbey - won after first letter - only £50, but it's the principle

Old Bear vs. Black Horse - £117 of charges wiped off 2 loans, but more WILL follow

Mrs Bear vs. Index (Littlewoods) - SAR sent - 2/2/2007

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Hi OldBear.

 

i sent my SAR to the london office (25 Gresham Street) same as lloyds tsb s registered office.

 

however it was not needed as what i did was to call the cardiff call centre on 08702427878 and very politley asked if they would be able to send me a copy of the statements from my loans. i didnt mention why i wanted them and the lady was very helpfull and sent them through a couple of days later. so you could try that it may be of help. if not then i would send the SAR to the registered office held on the data protection commissioners register which is

 

Black Horse Personal Finance

25 GRESHAM STREET

LONDON

EC2V 7HN

regards

paul

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FYI..

 

I called Black Horse finance this morning on the 08702427878 number, and they are sending a copy of the loan statements with all the charges added at the end.. but to get a breakdown of charges I was told to write and ask for them (they didn't mention anything about access fees.. so I didn't send any money.. we'll see what happens)

The address they gave was

Black Horse Personal Finance

St. William House,

Tresillian Terrace,

Cardiff,

CF10 5BH

Not sure about the content of the prelim or lba letter though.. does anyone have any examples?

Circo Loco @ DC10, Ibiza. My favorite place in the world on a Monday afternoon.

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FYI..

 

I called Black Horse finance this morning on the 08702427878 number, and they are sending a copy of the loan statements with all the charges added at the end.. but to get a breakdown of charges I was told to write and ask for them (they didn't mention anything about access fees.. so I didn't send any money.. we'll see what happens)

 

The address they gave was

 

Black Horse Personal Finance

St. William House,

Tresillian Terrace,

Cardiff,

CF10 5BH

 

Not sure about the content of the prelim or lba letter though.. does anyone have any examples?

 

Hey Matthew - here's a link to all the template letters you'll need. Just customise with your own personal details and away you go!

Don't forget to send recorded delivery tho - ensure you get a receipt for posting and for any postal orders. They like to lose them and refuse acknowledgement too!

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/bank-templates-library/

 

Hi Old Bear and PT

After a long and confusing conversation with Black Horse's customer services dept..

"We don't have a Data Controller at 25 Gresham Street" - it's sent to another department.

I quoted as you did PT re ICO's website etc, but they still refused to acknowledge his or her existence.

Just go with the Gresham Street Address, but expect NO signature for your recorded delivery slip - they won't sign - send it Special Delivery and you may be lucky (for £4), then expect a long delay in 'whomever deals with them' but stick to your guns re time limits.

I found it's worth writing to St William House to their Bank Servicing Manager - recorded - and confirm that you have sent the SAR and the Postal Order - the date sent, and the recorded delivery docket number with the Postal Order Voucher ID no. It's in Black and White, and they cannot refute the numbers and tracking facility.

 

All the very best

P

If my advice has helped, please click on my scales. Thank you!

MBNA - CRA file to be cleared then finished!

__________________________________________

Abbey Personal - Final LBA 28/5/7 - then Court

__________________________________________

Capital One - Final LBA 28/5/7 - then Court

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GMAC - Sent DCA SAR 9th March 07 - confirmed not legally assigned.

Waiting for GMAC to provide breakdown of charges and CCA under s79

__________________________________________

Alliance & Leicester - Final LBA 28/5/7 - then Court.

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Hi Perseus.

 

i have made a complaint about Black Horse for non compliance under the data protection act for exactley those reasons IE not having a data controller at 25 gresham street. although it is the address on the data pro register now. plus on the data protection register around a month ago B/ Horse were registered at 51 holdenhurst road in bournemouth which was years out of date. i have had a email from the info commissioners office saying they have had a great deal of complaints like mine and are currently investigating

 

so nothing surprises me any more with B/H

 

I will elt you all know when i get a further response from the comms office

 

regards

paul

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Hi joesoap

 

thanks, im hoping that they settle up as my next battle is with B/Horses big brother LLOYDS TSB and that one is worth over 3000 but i have a 500 pound overdraft with lloyds and they will probably ask for it back when i start the claim against them so i need the money from this one to cover the O/D should they ask for it back.

 

still if they dont pay up tomorrrow they will pay up in court that im certain of

 

i will update tomorrow when i know whats going on

 

regards

paul

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Hi PT

Yeah, good luck, and re lloyds - I see the A & L got their nuckles wrapped big time - seems to have set a precedent too...

As long as you make a token payment into the lloyds account, you aren't leaving it in a 'delinquent state', and therefore - with your SAR and letter of dispute, they shouldn't (and in theory can't) foreclose!

 

All the best mate!

If my advice has helped, please click on my scales. Thank you!

MBNA - CRA file to be cleared then finished!

__________________________________________

Abbey Personal - Final LBA 28/5/7 - then Court

__________________________________________

Capital One - Final LBA 28/5/7 - then Court

__________________________________________

GMAC - Sent DCA SAR 9th March 07 - confirmed not legally assigned.

Waiting for GMAC to provide breakdown of charges and CCA under s79

__________________________________________

Alliance & Leicester - Final LBA 28/5/7 - then Court.

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Paul, Following my LBA to Barnet/Cardiff last Friday, I have received a letter today (not too bad going I suppose) acknowledging receipt and stating; we are currently assessing your claim for a refund of fees paid (no mention of the additional late payment interest I've asked for) and also the position regarding to fees accrued and unpaid; There are no F***ing fees unpaid except the £25 they hope to collect on completion of the loan, no chance. I wouldn't mind but the loan should have been finished in October 2004 but I'll be paying until June this year because of the interest that was added on. There were a few payments missed because of our business failure and at one time they were going to take us to court for repossession but that never happened. We did of course get lumbered with Solicitors fees which were added to the loan and which also accrued interset.Anyway, I have bashed off a fax asking what fees accrued and unpaid, apart from the £25 I know about. Hope you get your settlement today.Ian (real name) but credit companies have been taking the P so long I thought joe Soap was more appropriate.By the way, is it just me but on accessing your page I get a scripting error?

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