Money received but not asked for

[Ruud]

Hi all,

 

To summarise, 12 months ago i applied for a loan with Northern Rock, however after sending the application in i decided to change the amount and timescale. I rang them and they agreed to destroy the original agreement and send out a new application for the new amount (£15000) and new timescale (5 years).

 

This money was paid into my account as per agrement, a few days later a further £15000 was paid into my account, unbeknownst to me at the time as i was abroad for the month. When i returned i discovered this money and also 2 direct debits taking 2 lots of £310 per month out of my account. I spoke to northern rock whom confirmed the second amount was a mistake. As i had inadvertently spent some of the money i continued paying it back monthly which was crippling me financially and so I rang Northern rock to ask them to restructure the payments, this was in May. They wanted me to pay back the amount paid in error plus interest and than take out a new loan to incorporate my first loan plus the amount paid in error and all of the interest. This is where we encountered problems. I felt that as they had paid me the money in error and there was no credit agreement in place for the second sum, i should not have to pay the interest they were asking for, merely the amount of money left unpaid and the original loan (plus interest). Northern rock insisted that they had a credit agreement for both amounts, i told them it was impossible but was told they definately had two agreements and that they could send out a copy of them both to me and i must continue with my payments for the money paid in error. I refused to make these payments until the issue of the credit agreement could be resolved. The copies of the agreements never arrived and i regularly got calls over the weeks informing me i was defaulting on the loan, when i would try and appraise them of the situation - that there was no credit agreement so i couldn't be defaulting we had to go through the same arguement as before - there is an agreement and they had a copy which would be sent to me - and this still failed to arrive. In the end i refused to speak to the call centre staff until a supervisor finally agreed to 'investigate the matter' A month later i received a letter appologising for their mistake and stating i could either pay back the amount paid in error minus the payments i'd made and no interest had been charged as there was no agreement in place, or i could sign a credit agreement for the remining amount - I rang to inform them i was going to look at remortgaging my house as the first means of paying it off but this takes a bit of time -This was late october by now. Midway through november i started receiving daily calls from northern rock recoveries whom informed me i was 5 months in arrears with my payments and had to make an immediate payment. As before i explined the position only to be told they had not sent the letter and they have copies of two agreements which will be sent to me. These still have not arrived and they have now contacted me again to say they have found the letter i was sent and that they want me to combine the two loans.

 

I am concerned that they are trying to get me to sign an agreement to pay back the money on their terms - which are not good - when i may not be obliged to do so at all?

 

How do i remove the bad credit details which i have incurred as a result of a non existant credit agreement?

 

What is my legal position on the money paid in error? As i understand it given that they did not perform any financial assessment on me for this additional money and there is no credit agreement in place, or a signed direct debit, do i have a legal obligation to repay it? If so what are the conditions that can be imposed etc?

 

Any help greatly appreciated as they are putting a lot of pressure on me at the moment?

[Ruud]

To keep you updated and in the hope i'll be stopped from making any errors, I have today sent in the letter requesting a copy of the credit agreements, I already have it in writing from them that they only have one but I realise i need to send this specific request before the debt is legally unenforeceable.

[chezt]

Hi all,

 

To summarise, 12 months ago i applied for a loan with Northern Rock, however after sending the application in i decided to change the amount and timescale. I rang them and they agreed to destroy the original agreement and send out a new application for the new amount (£15000) and new timescale (5 years).

 

This money was paid into my account as per agrement, a few days later a further £15000 was paid into my account, unbeknownst to me at the time as i was abroad for the month. When i returned i discovered this money and also 2 direct debits taking 2 lots of £310 per month out of my account. I spoke to northern rock whom confirmed the second amount was a mistake. As i had inadvertently spent some of the money i continued paying it back monthly which was crippling me financially and so I rang Northern rock to ask them to restructure the payments, this was in May. They wanted me to pay back the amount paid in error plus interest and than take out a new loan to incorporate my first loan plus the amount paid in error and all of the interest. This is where we encountered problems. I felt that as they had paid me the money in error and there was no credit agreement in place for the second sum, i should not have to pay the interest they were asking for, merely the amount of money left unpaid and the original loan (plus interest). Northern rock insisted that they had a credit agreement for both amounts, i told them it was impossible but was told they definately had two agreements and that they could send out a copy of them both to me and i must continue with my payments for the money paid in error. I refused to make these payments until the issue of the credit agreement could be resolved. The copies of the agreements never arrived and i regularly got calls over the weeks informing me i was defaulting on the loan, when i would try and appraise them of the situation - that there was no credit agreement so i couldn't be defaulting we had to go through the same arguement as before - there is an agreement and they had a copy which would be sent to me - and this still failed to arrive. In the end i refused to speak to the call centre staff until a supervisor finally agreed to 'investigate the matter' A month later i received a letter appologising for their mistake and stating i could either pay back the amount paid in error minus the payments i'd made and no interest had been charged as there was no agreement in place, or i could sign a credit agreement for the remining amount - I rang to inform them i was going to look at remortgaging my house as the first means of paying it off but this takes a bit of time -This was late october by now. Midway through november i started receiving daily calls from northern rock recoveries whom informed me i was 5 months in arrears with my payments and had to make an immediate payment. As before i explined the position only to be told they had not sent the letter and they have copies of two agreements which will be sent to me. These still have not arrived and they have now contacted me again to say they have found the letter i was sent and that they want me to combine the two loans.

 

I am concerned that they are trying to get me to sign an agreement to pay back the money on their terms - which are not good - when i may not be obliged to do so at all?

 

How do i remove the bad credit details which i have incurred as a result of a non existant credit agreement?

 

What is my legal position on the money paid in error? As i understand it given that they did not perform any financial assessment on me for this additional money and there is no credit agreement in place, or a signed direct debit, do i have a legal obligation to repay it? If so what are the conditions that can be imposed etc?

 

Any help greatly appreciated as they are putting a lot of pressure on me at the moment?

 

Hi - I can't really help much but I just wanted to suggest you look into the 'direct debit guarantee' which has to be adhered to when someone sets up a d/debit from your account ... is there anything in this guarantee which can help as surely if you've not signed 2 d/debit forms they can't deduct 2 payments from your account as it is without your authority. i know this doesn't help your case on the payments but it may just help a little with the overall situation

 

.. Good luck ... it certainly sounds like a bit of a headache!

[Ruud]

Having written my letter requesting copies of both credit agreements under the CCA sections 77-79 on the 3rd January, enclosing my £1 fee (which was cashed) I have as yet received neither credit agreement. This has suprised me as i was expecting the one that i signed to arrive. I assume I'm right in thinking that this means both debts are unenforceable and I don't have to pay them a penny more?

 

Furthermore does this mean that as my request has passed the 30 days mark the money paid to them so far was taken by them illegally and i can claim it back?

 

Thanks in advance

 

Ruud

[bally35]

Hi

Have a look at CCA threads.

I'm sure that the maximum waiting time for this is twelve days and after that date the agreement cannot be enforced.

Hopefully if I'm wrong others will let you know.

Sorry to be of so little help

 

Good luck

Bally

[bally35]

http://http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/general/33174-consumer-credit-act-agreements.html

 

Here is link

[Ruud]

Thanks Bally, I'll checck out the link

[fiford]

Hi Ruud,

Hope it's okay to suggest this here, but I would recommend you log on to the Motley Fool http://www.fool.co.uk and go on to their Dealing With Debt discussion board. You'll get fantastic advice there.

Someone from their reclaiming charges board referred me to this site so I'm just returning the favour really.

fiford

[Ruud]

Thanks fiford, I'll have a look, although the advice and imformation here is very good, I've been following a similar thread to this one to save cluttering the forum.

 

For information, Northern Rock have not contacted me about the mony paid in error since i sent my formal CCA requst so i know have to construct a letter asking for the monies back which they wrongly and illegally took from my account, any advice on this would be gratefully received.

 

As for the loan, they seem completely oblivious to the fact that they are in default and ring me daily with a weekly letter requesting i pay arrears. At present i am not responding as i believe i do not have to until they send me a fully compliant creit agreement, can someone confirm this is correct plw

eases as i am basing tis on other similar threads?

 

AMny thanks

Ruud

[Ruud]

Having done some further reading around the threads I've decided to send this letter tomorrow, hope it's alright but i now need to prepare litigation, is this going to be similar to the bank charges threads? Any help nuch appreciated thanks XX

 

 

Northern Rock Personal Loans

Hepworth House

Claypit Lane,

LEEDS,

LS2 8AE

 

 

 

28th March 2007

 

Agreement Numbers: XXXXXXXXXXX & XXXXXXXXX

 

 

Dear Sir / madam.

 

 

I wrote to you by recorded delivery on January 3rd 2007 asking for a copy of the credit agreements under S77-79 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974, enclosing a fee of £1. This letter was delivered and signed for on January 8th 2007 as documented by the Royal Mail.

 

The Consumer Credit Act allows 12 working days for this request to be carried out before your company enter into a default situation. If the request is not satisfied after a further calendar month, your company commit an offence. These time limits expired on January 23rd 2007 and February 22nd 2007 respectively. I have still not received the documents as required by S77/8 Consumer Credit Act 1974. I am therefore of the opinion that an offence has now been committed.

 

As you are no doubt aware subsection (4) states:

 

If the creditor under an agreement fails to comply with subsection (1)—

(a) He is not entitled, while the default continues, to enforce the agreement; and

(b) If the default continues for one month he commits an offence.

 

Therefore as at January 23rd 2007 both of these accounts became unenforceable at law and it is now my intention to refer this matter to the enforcement authorities. As an offence of this nature may have an impact on your ability to hold a credit licence, it is important that you give this letter your immediate and prompt attention.

 

In addition these accounts are no longer enforceable and payments to them have therefore ceased. You cannot take any action to collect payment and this includes telephoning me. Any default notices or adverse comments your company have recorded on my credit reference file should be immediately removed. Please note that mere correction or amendment to the entry’s will not be acceptable.

 

Additionally any monies I may have paid to your company should be returned to me forthwith.

 

Failure to respond favourably to this letter within seven (7) days of receipt will result in immediate litigation being commenced against your company without further notice.

 

I need not remind you that further attempts to discuss the matter with me or to seek payment from myself in this manner would be an act of criminal harassment.

 

Under the Protection from Harassment Act 1997 s 1. A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months, or a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale, or both.I will not enter into any telephone discussions on this matter and have been logging all calls made by your company to be used in a court of law if necessary.

 

 

I await your rapid response.