£1600 of Items, paid via PayPal Credit - not fit for purpose - returned but damaged by DPD - Also purchased Secursus parcel insurance

[MrsSl]

Hi all - would appreciate some advice if anyone can help.

Husband recently purchased some expensive guitar equipment (£1600) which didn’t meet his needs when it arrived.

He arranged to return it to the retailer using DPD and paid Secursus for insurance cover.

The equipment was returned in original packaging but somehow or other DPD managed to smash one of the items in transit. It’s a big sturdy bit of equipment so god knows how they managed it.

Retailer won’t refund items due to damage and sent them back to my husband.

He opens insurance claim with Secursus and has provided everything they ask for.

They have come back to say they won’t pay out as deep in their T&Cs they say they don’t insure returns unless expressly agreed in writing.

He had opened a claim with DPD who have paid back the nominal amount they will pay (something like £25, I forget the exact amount). He purchased the items on PayPal credit.

Has anyone gone through anything similar and had any luck in getting a satisfactory outcome?

I had thought I should complain to the Financial Services Ombudsman but not sure if they cover courier insurance?

 

[BankFodder]

Hi, we can probably help you. Do some reading of the first dozen or so topics in this sub- forum and monitor this thread for a full reply tomorrow.

Please can you put up a link to this insurance company. Are they part of DPD?

[MrsSl]

Many thanks, I’ll have a good read through this evening.

Secursus are separate to DPD. Here is a link: www.secursus.com 

https://www.secursus.com/en-gb/#

 

[jk2054]

Hi OP,

 

BF will come along with a full response but I've noted some stuff for you already and BF and others would be grateful for you to answer the questions at the end of my post.

In short - No claim against Secursus unfortunately - only against DPD.

In full -

The financial ombudsman (FOS) will cover regulated insurers in the UK provided that they are governed and registered with the Financial Conduct Authority (FCA).

 Secursus's website says "Secursus SAS is a French limited company."

 Unfortunately, this means they are an offshore company (very similar to packlink) so they won't be covered by the FOS nor by UK courts so your only claim will be against DPD.

However I note that DPD have paid a £25 payment to you. 

From looking at their website (secursus) It seems that Secursus insures after you have already booked it with the carrier.

Please therefore answer the following

- Did you send the item via DPD or via a broker e.g parcel2go

- If it was a broker then which?

- Did you declare the value correctly?

- What did you declare the value as?

 

[MrsSl]

Hi,

just checked with husband and he says he booked direct with DPD and declared the value correctly based on the total price paid.

he purchased 2 items in a bundle deal which are designed to work together - a guitar amplifier head and cab.

They were boxed separately as they are so big and heavy - each box weighed approx 16kg - he gave an estimated value for the item in each box based on the bundle price of £1600.

One box was delivered fine but the other - the more expensive item of the two, worth in region of £1200 - was smashed when the retailer opened the parcel to process the return.

They immediately contacted him and sent photos and details so he could claim on his insurance. 

[jk2054]

 Thank you,

What was the time  between when it was delivered and when the photos from the retailer were sent?

The only problem is you'll need to prove the damage occured in DPD not the retailer's possession.  So long as the time difference is small enough you'll be ok, but if it's weeks then it may be harder.

[MrsSl]

He got an automated acknowledgment of his online return arriving back with the retailer at 11.54am and he was then emailed by them at 12.34pm with photos of the damaged goods and advising that they could not accept the return.

They even said they thought it was well packaged (in the same packaging that they had sent the goods to him).

Incidentally he has just said that they sent it to him via DPD which is why he returned it to them using DPD

He is concerned he may not be able to claim through DPD as he accepted the refund from them (he’s confirmed it was £21.49 for the parcel cost) and they sent him £50 for the claim.

He accepted this as Secursus said he should accept it because he needed to have gone through the claim with DPD before he could proceed with them as his insurer

[jk2054]

I'm not convinced he contracted with DPD

 

Which website did he use to send it?

[MrsSl]

He said he sent it via the DPD website but then he took insurance through Secursus

[dx100uk]

Were these purchased via an ebay ad?

and is this paypal UK credit , has he a copy of the agreement he signed?

thread title updated

dx

 

 

[MrsSl]

No, they were purchased direct via the retailers website, not via eBay. The payment was via PayPal credit, we are based in uk 

Just to note as the title has been changed from my original title

- the items were as described at purchase but when he received them they/it just wasn’t suitable for his needs.

I don’t want to mislead anyone in thinking they weren’t as described.

When purchasing musical equipment there is usually a need to try them out to see how they sound and how they interact with equipment you already have, hence why it wasn’t suitable 

[dx100uk]

which equals a not fit for purpose return. title updated

was this paypal credit expressly taken out for this purchase or did it pre exist purchase?

please take the trouble to space your posts using sentences and blank line.

dx

[MrsSl]

Apologies, I’m typing on my phone, but very grateful for the advice and help received so far.

 

thank you 

[dx100uk]

3 minutes ago, dx100uk said:

was this paypal credit expressly taken out for this purchase or did it pre exist purchase?

 

[MrsSl]

I am a little confused by this query, sorry.

He chose to pay via PayPal credit for this purchase, as he had the option to pay via PayPal credit or PayPal via bank payment. 

[dx100uk]

when you take out paypal credit you have to agree to it by digitally signing (via a tick box etc) the agreement. a copy would have been sent to him in a msg or email?

it should say at the top cover by the consumer credit agreement 1994 etc etc?

does it?

dx

[MrsSl]

He has forwarded the email receipt which has this at the bottom:

 

PayPal UK Ltd is authorised and regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) as an electronic money institution under the Electronic Money Regulations 2011 for the issuance of electronic money (firm reference number 994790), in relation to its regulated consumer credit activities under the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000 (firm reference number 996405) and for the provision of Cryptocurrency services under the Money Laundering, Terrorist Financing and Transfer of Funds (Information on the Payer) Regulations 2017 (firm reference number 1000741). Some of PayPal UK Ltd's products including PayPal Pay in 3 and PayPal Working Capital are not regulated by the FCA. PayPal UK Ltd's company number is 14741686 and its registered address is Whittaker House, Whittaker Avenue, Richmond-Upon-Thames, Surrey, United Kingdom, TW9 1EH.

[BankFodder]

In terms of SECRUSUS, as you now understand, it seems that they aren't based within the UK jurisdiction so if they decide to decline some kind of claim you have a lot of difficulty.

Also, although they are insurers apparently in the former sense of the word, they don't seem to be regulated in the United Kingdom. As far as I understand, any firm carrying out insurance -related activities in the UK must be regulated by the PRA and the FCA. As far as I understand, this is an obligation and it can even amount to a criminal offence not to do so.

All that to one side – you have matter take out some kind of insurance with a foreign-based company with no domicile in the UK and so in terms of forcing them to carry out their side of the bargain by means of a County Court claim or a complaint to the FOS – you had better forget it.
Of course somebody could complain to the authorities that this company appears to be operating without regulation – but I can imagine the regulatory authorities can't be bothered.
Of course I could be wrong about the legal requirement to be regulated but it's not my understanding at the moment.
I would certainly be interested anyway to see this small print that they apparently have dragged out to deny your claim.

If you have a look at Companies House you will find that the company Secursus was domiciled in the United Kingdom until 2019. It was owned by a French man. He was domiciled in France but lived in Spain.
Then in 2019 they wound up the UK company and continue trading in France – well out of reach of the UK jurisdiction. By strange coincidence, about the same time, Packlink did exactly the same. They were domiciled in the UK and then mysteriously decided to move away from the jurisdiction.

Although consumer rights are broadly the same throughout Europe, the enforcement of consumer rights is much easier in the UK and of course it makes good sense for these companies to establish themselves out of reach of the UK courts.
You might want to say that they are still within the reach of the Fwench courts but am afraid that consumer expectations in Fwance are very low.
During the Covid pandemic, there was a huge problem of convincing Fwench citizens to take vaccinations. They were pathologically opposed to vaccines and I always thought that the solution was to package the vaccines into suppositories. That would have solved the problem because the Fwench would have been queueing up round the block for seconds.
I think that's how you would have to package their consumer rights as well.

I suppose it comes as no surprise that insurance companies make their money not by paying out claims but by not paying out claims. Although not in the insurance business and never have been, about 30 years ago I was actually invited to a days conference set up by the insurance industry called "loss denial". I was too busy and didn't go.

Of course one interesting thing – no surprise – is that on the website of Secursus, they emphasise that without some extra insurance you are only covered for certain minimum amounts. Of course this perpetuates the myth that seems to be widely believed throughout Europe that you must buy extra cover in order to get full protection.
On this forum we know very well that that is not true and that companies are prohibited by the Consumer Rights Act from limiting their liability if they fail to perform their contractual services correctly.

This is also interesting because we are well aware that the parcel delivery industry already makes billions of pounds through unlawful insurance premiums every year and now we have this company – and maybe there are others (who knows) doing the same thing – treading on the very easy so-called "insurance" market of the parcel delivery industry without all the complicated and onerous structure and overheads of actually having to deliver parcels

And once again, it's absurd that you should be required to take out insurance effectively to protect the parcel delivery company in case they fail to carry out their contractual obligations.

If you look towards the top of the sub- forum, you will find our little presentations about pizza delivery insurance and restaurant meal insurance. If you find those ideas absurd then ask yourself why you think the parcel delivery insurance is okay

[BankFodder]

And onto your particular problem.

I'm afraid that your description is a bit chaotic to my mind.

I understand that you sent one parcel containing two items but one item was damaged – is this correct?
The entire value of the contents of the parcel was £1600 but you don't seem to have told us what the value of the damaged item is.
I don't think we know what the damaged item actually is other than that is connected in some way to a musical instrument.

Presumably you were offered the DPD parcel delivery insurance. Of course we know that there is completely unnecessary and in fact it is unlawful – but as a matter of interest, why did you not take that out?

Because the French company is out of reach, you're going to have to sue DPD – which would be the easiest thing to do anyway.

[MrsSl]

Hi - apologies as it is rather complex.

Husband bought a guitar amplifier head and cabinet. They are two separate items but were sold in a bundle deal for £1600.

They were packaged in two separate boxes as they are both big, heavy items.

The amplifier was damaged on the return.  He estimates this to be valued at £1200 (based on the bundle price and their normal retail value)

The other item was fine.

Retailer will not accept the return due to the damage and will not refund or exchange so they have sent both items back to him.

He didn’t pay additional insurance through DPD as the cost was so high, hence taking out cover through Secursus.

 

 

Edited December 27, 2023 by dx100uk
unnecessary previous post quote removed.

[BankFodder]

Thank you that helps a bit.
So we can forget the business about the bundle. I understand that you sent a box containing an amplifier and the value is £1200 and it was damaged. Is it damaged beyond repair?

DPD are refusing to reimburse you and although you haven't said why, I expect that it is because you haven't bought their so-called "insurance". Is that correct?

They have paid you £25. Did they do this unilaterally or with your agreement?

By the way, have checked with some French contacts and it seems very likely that in order to offer insurance products in France, the company must be regulated there as well. There is no trace of any regulation number and so it may well be that this company is acting unlawfully across Europe – if my information is correct.
I can't imagine that all European insurance companies are not subject to some kind of regulation.

The trouble is that being a French company, if it is operating unlawfully then it is much easier to get away with it in France

[MrsSl]

DPD haven’t refused to reimburse us, yet.

They have paid £50, plus refunded the cost of the postage which was just over £20, which we accepted as Secursus said we needed to accept it while they were processing our claim. 

We haven’t yet tried to claim anything further from DPD as we were only told by Secursus yesterday that they wouldn’t pay out.

I may be wrong, but I am assuming because my husband accepted the £50, that DPD will now refuse to pay anything else. But he only accepted that as Secursus told him to accept it.

Edited December 27, 2023 by dx100uk
unnecessary previous post quote removed.

[BankFodder]

There is no relationship at all between DPD and secursus.

You're right, DPD may well try to say that as you have accepted a certain amount of money that that is the end of their liability.

I think you have to draft a letter to DPD and complain about the damaged parcel and demand your money back. Provide them with evidence of the value.

What evidence do you have?

 

Also was there any written condition about your acceptance of the £50? Did you sign anything? Please could you post up anything that came along with the payment or the offer of payment

 

And by the way, earlier on I asked you to post up the small print that they were relying upon to declined liability but you haven't addressed that request.

Is there a reason for that?

[MrsSl]

Re evidence of the value, he has the initial receipt for the goods purchased from the retailer. 

Re your query on damaged beyond repair.

We are not quite sure on the extent of the damage as the outer case of the amp has been smashed.

He has contacted the manufacturer of the amp who are based in the States.

The item is now discontinued but they can ship parts to him for $460 but as it would be coming from the States it will incur VAT and duty costs on top.

It would then need to be repaired by a professional here but we don’t know how much that would cost.

We don’t yet know if any of the electrical components are damaged either, so there could be further costs relating to that

 

Hi, thanks for the replies and advice so far. It’s much appreciated, especially given it is the Christmas period.

My husband has been in touch with Secursus and DPD throughout. He is at work today so I can’t check exactly what information he has had or has signed until he gets home tonight.

However I do know Secursus said they were denying the claim due to clause 5.2 (see below). I told him to dispute this as I think they were confusing the fact that the retailer returned the goods to him due to the damage (and they were aware this was happening).

For some reason I cannot copy and paste links or insert screenshot photos but I have copied this from their website T&Cs

Article 5 - Duration of coverage of the Parcel Insurance

5.1. For Items entrusted to a Carrier, the Parcel Insurance enters into effect at the moment when the insured Items, packaged per the requirements set out in article 8, are handed over to the Carrier and ends upon delivery, to the Recipient, against receipt issued by the latter, or, at the latest, 14 (fourteen) days as from the Pick-Up Date, this regardless of the means of transportation.

5.2. For returned Items, the Parcel Insurance terminates either 14 (fourteen) days after the Initial Pick-Up Date, regardless of the means of transportation. The Goods delivered and then returned to the Sender are not covered by Parcel Insurance (unless agreed in writing by Secursus).

 

 

[BankFodder]

So far as the terms and conditions go, I cannot imagine anything more onerous.
Even though it is not needed because you are adequately protected, if you are going to get it then you would want it to come in force if the parcel is lost. And  here they say that after 14 days from the date of pickup, the delivery insurance is no longer existant - roughly about the time that you start to appreciate that the parcel is indeed lost. Not only that, I suppose they have a get out because they would be able to say that you aren't able to identify the time that the parcel was lost and whether it fell within the 14 days or outside the 14 days

And then if you want to send the parcel back you have to get written agreement.

Did you read this stuff before you bought the insurance or did you only trouble to read it afterwards?

It's a complete rip-off.

French company – which doesn't appear to be regulated for insurance purposes in any jurisdiction. Which encourage you to take insurance and reminds you that if you don't then most parcel delivery companies will only pay you a maximum of £20 or so – which of course in the UK and other jurisdictions is completely untrue.

Let's move on. You say that you have got the sales receipts – but your sales receipt refers to the bundle and I am trying desperately to sever the damaged item from the item which was not damaged because you have held onto that. You're going to have to replace the amplifier – so how much is that worth?

In case you aren't sure – I'm trying to find out the value of the claim that you will eventually make in order to compensate you for the loss of the amplifier.