Jump to content


  • Tweets

  • Posts

    • The case against the US-based ride-hailing giant is being brought on behalf of over 10,800 drivers.View the full article
    • I have just read the smaller print on their signs. It says that you can pay at the end of your parking session. given that you have ten minutes grace period the 35 seconds could easily have been taken up with walking back to your car, switching on the engine and then driving out. Even in my younger days when I used to regularly exceed speed limits, I doubt I could have done that in 35 seconds even when I  had a TR5.
    • Makers of insect-based animal feed hope to be able to compete with soybeans on price.View the full article
    • Thank you for posting up the results from the sar. The PCN is not compliant with the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 Schedule 4. Under Section 9 [2][a] they are supposed to specify the parking time. the photographs show your car in motion both entering and leaving the car park thus not parking. If you have to do a Witness Statement later should they finally take you to Court you will have to continue to state that even though you stayed there for several hours in a small car park and the difference between the ANPR times and the actual parking period may only be a matter of a few minutes  nevertheless the CEL have failed to comply with the Act by failing to specify the parking period. However it looks as if your appeal revealed you were the driver the deficient PCN will not help you as the driver. I suspect that it may have been an appeal from the pub that meant that CEL offered you partly a way out  by allowing you to claim you had made an error in registering your vehicle reg. number . This enabled them to reduce the charge to £20 despite them acknowledging that you hadn't registered at all. We have not seen the signs in the car park yet so we do not what is said on them and all the signs say the same thing. It would be unusual for a pub to have  a Permit Holders Only sign which may discourage casual motorists from stopping there. But if that is the sign then as it prohibits any one who doesn't have a permit, then it cannot form a contract with motorists though it may depend on how the signs are worded.
    • Defence and Counterclaim Claim number XXX Claimant Civil Enforcement Limited Defendant XXXXXXXXXXXXX   How much of the claim do you dispute? I dispute the full amount claimed as shown on the claim form.   Do you dispute this claim because you have already paid it? No, for other reasons.   Defence 1. The Defendant is the recorded keeper of XXXXXXX  2. It is denied that the Defendant entered into a contract with the Claimant. 3. As held by the Upper Tax Tribunal in Vehicle Control Services Limited v HMRC [2012] UKUT 129 (TCC), any contract requires offer and acceptance. The Claimant was simply contracted by the landowner to provide car-park management services and is not capable of entering into a contract with the Defendant on its own account, as the car park is owned by and the terms of entry set by the landowner. Accordingly, it is denied that the Claimant has authority to bring this claim. 4. In any case it is denied that the Defendant broke the terms of a contract with the Claimant. 5. The Claimant is attempting double recovery by adding an additional sum not included in the original offer. 6. In a further abuse of the legal process the Claimant is claiming £50 legal representative's costs, even though they have no legal representative. 7. The Particulars of Claim is denied in its entirety. It is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief at all. Signed I am the Defendant - I believe that the facts stated in this form are true XXXXXXXXXXX 01/05/2024   Defendant's date of birth XXXXXXXXXX   Address to which notices about this claim can be sent to you  
  • Recommended Topics

  • Our picks

    • If you are buying a used car – you need to read this survival guide.
        • Like
      • 1 reply
    • Hello,

      On 15/1/24 booked appointment with Big Motoring World (BMW) to view a mini on 17/1/24 at 8pm at their Enfield dealership.  

      Car was dirty and test drive was two circuits of roundabout on entry to the showroom.  Was p/x my car and rushed by sales exec and a manager into buying the mini and a 3yr warranty that night, sale all wrapped up by 10pm.  They strongly advised me taking warranty out on car that age (2017) and confirmed it was honoured at over 500 UK registered garages.

      The next day, 18/1/24 noticed amber engine warning light on dashboard , immediately phoned BMW aftercare team to ask for it to be investigated asap at nearest garage to me. After 15 mins on hold was told only their 5 service centres across the UK can deal with car issues with earliest date for inspection in March ! Said I’m not happy with that given what sales team advised or driving car. Told an amber warning light only advisory so to drive with caution and call back when light goes red.

      I’m not happy to do this, drive the car or with the after care experience (a sign of further stresses to come) so want a refund and to return the car asap.

      Please can you advise what I need to do today to get this done. 
       

      Many thanks 
      • 81 replies
    • Housing Association property flooding. https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/438641-housing-association-property-flooding/&do=findComment&comment=5124299
        • Like
      • 161 replies
    • We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
        • Like
  • Recommended Topics

I got a Nip 36/30 W.Yorks. SJP failing to provide the licence? **RESOLVED**


style="text-align: center;">  

Thread Locked

because no one has posted on it for the last 152 days.

If you need to add something to this thread then

 

Please click the "Report " link

 

at the bottom of one of the posts.

 

If you want to post a new story then

Please

Start your own new thread

That way you will attract more attention to your story and get more visitors and more help 

 

Thanks

Recommended Posts

Hi,

I got a Nip 18/4/23   36/30  West Yorkshire.

I am 95% sure  the form required licence details but not the actual licence.

Last week I received a single justice procedure for failing to provide the licence.  

I do appreciate that they are entitled to do this … however …. I am SURE they changed procedures meaning they could endorse from the submitted licence number abolishing the need to submit the physical licence ..

Does anyone have recent experience / knowledge of this change in particular for West Yorkshire as it might be a force specific role out 

Link to post
Share on other sites

A NIP requires no response. It is simply a notice informing you that a prosecution is being considered.

Are you talking about submitting your licence when accepting a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (£100 and 3 points)?

If so, the requirement to submit your licence when accepting such an offer was discontinued late last year (around the beginning of December, IIRC).

I can't think of any other circumstances where you would have to submit your licence but let me know what has happened and I should be able to tell you how to proceed. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • dx100uk changed the title to Law change abolishing need to submit licence with NIP?

For  FPN this page on gov.uk confirms what has been said, you don't (normally) need to send your licence, just the licence number.

Penalty points (endorsements): Returning your driving licence for endorsement - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

This solicitor's site confirms the law changed from 1 December 2022, no need to send in physical licence, although it doesn't say what the specific regulations were that made the change.

Stephen Oldham Solicitors | Post in your driving licence when you accept a fixed penalty for speeding (thedrivingsolicitor.co.uk)

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

The specific regulations can be found in Section 54(3)(b) and Section 57A(3) of the Road Traffic Offenders' Act.

If you look here you will see an amendment to those sections dated 30th November 2022:

WWW.LEGISLATION.GOV.UK

An Act to consolidate certain enactments relating to the prosecution and punishment (including the punishment without conviction) of road traffic...

If the OP could tell us exactly what has happened I may be able to assist him to proceed with his SJPN.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks MitM.

So for the OP if you need to refer to relevant law that made the change it was in section 94 of the Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022 which was brought into force on 30 November 2022 by the snappily named Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022 (Commencement No. 4 and Transitional Provisions) and Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 (Commencement No. 1) Regulations 2022

This may be a dumb question  @heathertippex but are you absolutely certain you gave your driving licence number with all the details correct when you replied to the Conditional offer for a FPN?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi people, thanks for your replies.  
 

yes I am 99% sure.  

I paid the penalty £100 online & then filled the form in & sent it back with my driving licence number on it. (Wish I’d taken a photocopy first,,)   The reason I am so sure is that I have forgot to send my licence back in the past .. about 10 years ago & I got a letter reminding me to send it in. On this occasion I remember thinking how much more sensible it is to simply give them my driving licence number. 


When I got the SJP last week I was totally confused (holiday packing!)  I thought it was actually a new format NIP  I didn’t know about.  

I responded to it (considering deadlines) & indicated I wanted to go to court on the basis that it was 5.5 months after an alleged offence.

 At this stage I didn’t marry it up to conditional offer of speeding fine and 3 points I acknowledged and paid on 18/4/23 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, so has your £100 been refunded?

Whether it has or it hasn’t is really of no consequence. However, you should make sure it is returned.

Did you plead guilty or not guilty in response to the SJPN? The process you should have adopted is to plead guilty and in the “mitigating circumstances” section state that you paid the penalty and submitted your DL details as the law requires. You should go on to respectfully request that you are sentenced at the Fixed Penalty level (£100 and 3 points). However, since you have asked for a court hearing, you can do the same when you appear. Magistrates have guidance which suggests such an approach should be taken in your circumstances:

"Where a penalty notice could not be offered or taken up for reasons unconnected with the offence itself, such as administrative difficulties outside the control of the offender, the starting point should be a fine equivalent to the amount of the penalty and no order of costs should be imposed. The offender should not be disadvantaged by the unavailability of the penalty notice in these circumstances."

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi people, thanks for your replies.  
 

yes I am 99% sure.  I paid the penalty £100 online & then filled the form in & sent it back with my driving licence number on it. (Wish I’d taken a photocopy first,,)   The reason I am so sure is that I have forgot to send my licence back in the past .. about 10 years ago & I got a letter reminding me to send it in. On this occasion I rember thinking how much more sensible it is to simply give them my driving licence number. 
When I got the SJP last week I was totally confused (holiday packing!)  I thought it was actually a new format NIP  I didn’t know about.  So I responded to it (considering deadlines) & indicated I wanted to go to court on the basis that it was 5.5 months after an alleged offence.  At this stage I didn’t marry it up to conditional offer of speeding fine Iand 3 points I acknowledged and paid on 18/4/23 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi 

on the third page in very small print it says:

conditional offer - paid but licence details not received by HMCTS 

I have no way of proving that I filled in their form and sent it back. Their postal address is a PO Box in Bradford and so recorded delivery cannot be sent. 
 

Indeed this  SJP I received last week states the form can be filled in on line or sent into the address provided - though I cannot find any address provided on the form….

Also why they have waited 5.5 months to raise this ‘alledged oversight’ with me

Link to post
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, heathertippex said:

conditional offer - paid but licence details not received by HMCTS 

[my bold]

So it looks like they are not, as you first thought, saying you should have sent in the physical licence, but that you didn't provide your driving licence details. Could that mean you did fill in the licence number but made an error and gave an incorrect number, maybe just one wrong digit?

So what is the answer to @Man in the middle question? Did you plead Guilty or Not Guilty to the SJPN?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Quote

I pleaded not guilty to the SJP 

Then you need to contact the court and retract that Not Guilty plea, substituting "guilty" instead. If you maintain a Not Guilty plea you will face a trial and in the highly likely event that you are convicted, you will face sentencing under the normal guidelines with no discount for a guilty plea. This will also be accompanied by a request from the prosecution for a contribution towards their costs and that usually starts at £620. You should also ensure that your request for a hearing which you can attend is maintained otherwise you will be sentenced under the "Single Justice" procedure at a hearing which you cannot attend.

Assuming you appear in court in person you should request that you are sentenced at the fixed penalty level in accordance with the guidance I provided at post #7.   You will have to convince the court that you did indeed comply with the conditions of the fixed penalty offer. It's a pity you did not at least retain a copy of your response. It's always a good idea to keep a copy of anything you send and obtain a free certificate of posting at the Post Office. 

Quote

Also why they have waited 5.5 months to raise this ‘alleged oversight’ with me.

Because the only option open to the police when you have failed to comply with the conditions of their offer of a fixed penalty is to prosecute you via the courts. They have six months (from the date of the offence) to begin proceedings and in many areas they take almost all of that time.

Edited by Man in the middle
  • Thanks 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh wow …. Ok I will make contact with the courts tomorrow and change my plea. 

Hopefully I am never in this situation again but if I am I will always take a copy and get proof of postage.

I wonder why if they can take payment online and the completion of the single justice form on line then why they don’t do the licence details on line …. Better for the environment , saves money and protects everyone with proof of receipt. 

 Really really appreciate all this help …. I’ll keep you all updated 👌

Link to post
Share on other sites

next time remember... come here 1st !!

its not as if you are a newbie to CAG and it's wonderful help!

it's also courteous to result your threads too...not get help and leave things hanging..

 

dx

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes it is a great help.   Retail you I will up date on the outcome  of this matter.

 

so sorry I thought I had updated on the other matter when I thanked for all the help and said I’d probably just pay the fine. Probably I could have made that clearer.  Sorry 

Link to post
Share on other sites

You've still not updated the other thread though...

It's not just a courtesy thing... It helps other users when they come looking for help on CAG.

We could do with some help from you.

PLEASE HELP US TO KEEP THIS SITE RUNNING EVERY POUND DONATED WILL HELP US TO KEEP HELPING OTHERS

 

 Have we helped you ...?         Please Donate button to the Consumer Action Group The National Consumer Service

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

Good morning… just a quick update. 
 

I have had a refund of the £100 into my bank account and there is a court hearing this coming Thursday.. I’m not looking forward to that!!  Any advice or pointers greatly appreciated! 
 

Whilst going through some paperwork I have found that I did take a copy of the completed form which is completed correctly and I definitely sent to them …. though I accept that’s not proof of postage or of them having received the form 🤦‍♀️

Link to post
Share on other sites

Good morning Man in the Middle, 

Yes I did request they change my plea from not guilty to guilty and this time i got proof of postage... But the flipping computer I did the letter on crashed so I cant print off a copy.   

Hopefully if they cant find that one they will accept that I wouldn't send an empty envelop with proof of postage :( 

I received their summons on referral to court which says a magistrate has decided should be referred to a full court hearing for a case management hearing.   

Why oh why they couldn't have just sent me a letter or email saying they couldn't find it .... I'd have sent them a copy of the form.  That would save all this money and me from having to take time from my already struggling business ( Hospitality :( ) 

Hearing is 1 for 1.30 today.. i'll let you know how I get on.  Thanks for all the help and advice :)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Just back from the Magistrates court. 

 The case was made that I was speeding and that I paid the fine but didn't submit the paper form and they asked for costs to be applied.  I said that I paid the fine and did send the form of which I had a copy. 

I added that I was sorry if they couldn't find the form or if they were short staffed but that I did send it.  The magistrates accepted this to be the case immediately and didn't ask to see my copy of the form.

They ordered the original 3 points and the £100 fine but added £40 as a surcharge... which I tried to argue against as I had fulfilled my side of the requirements and have had to take time from work for no fault of my own but they said they are required by law to add it.  Miffed about that on principal but guess I should count it as a win.

Hopefully I will never be in this situation a gain but lessons learnt are to send everything with POP and photocopy/print and save forms and correspondence .

Thank you to everyone who contributed to helping me on this matter :)

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for letting us know. It always helps to get feedback.

I'm surprised at the addition of the surcharge. Yes, it must be imposed by law but the usual way to get round it is to make the fine £72 and the surcharge £28. You could argue that if they accepted that you did comply with the conditions of the offer you should not be disadvantaged at all and there is adequate mechanism for that. Their Legal Advisor (the person sitting in front of them) should have advised them accordingly.

All in all a decent - if slightly incorrect - outcome and appealing against the sentence is probably not worth the hassle. As you say, "lessons learned" (but of course you won't be caught speeding again, will you?  😀

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • dx100uk changed the title to I got a Nip 36/30 W.Yorks. SJP failing to provide the licence? **RESOLVED**

well done

thread title updated.

can you please update this thread. tooo

Speed camera evidence - Speeding and Motoring Offences - Consumer Action Group

thank you

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 Caggers

    • No registered users viewing this page.

  • Have we helped you ...?


×
×
  • Create New...