Lloyds TSB - What is the Possibility of Account Closure

[Sophie-Jane]

Hi everyone

 

I have calculated that Lloyds TSB owes me over £630 in Charges

 

Its a Current Account - Cheque book, Visa Card and Internet banking

 

What I ask, if after trying / sucessfully or not, has anyone had their account closed by Lloyds TSB???

 

I need to know the answer prior to taking action, as I would need obviously another account elsewhere, but even then, would'nt I have similar charges if I went over the agreed limits, so going around and around in circles.

 

All info would be helpful

[Bookworm]

There's no answer to that. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. Open a parachute account now, just in case.

 

Yes, if you get charges elsewhere, they'll do the same and charge you. Then you'll reclaim the charges. Maybe they'll close you down, maybe they won't...

 

To be fair, most banks won't, and I suspect that even the ones who threaten might not. Only a few of the very vindictive ones have and even within the banks themsleves, there is no set policy.

 

So it's pot luck. Of course, if you quit now, you are doing exactly what they intend: to scare you into giving up what's lawfully yours. But hey, it's a free world! (so they tell me)

[Bean]

Hello & Welcome Sophie-Jane,

 

I am quite new to this, so I suggest getting the OK from a Moderator / Admin prior to acting on it: The Office of Fair Trading (OFT) has ruled against retaliatory action so I don't see any problem with stating in correspondence with the bank that you are aware of this.

 

You may wish to say that you will be observing and recording any signs of retaliatory action over the resolution period and immediately following. The implication being that it could ultimately be raised in court or could be notified to another official body (OFT, etc.) should need arise.

 

You'll still need a parachute account, but this shows you know your rights and that technically you should be protected.

 

Hope this helps,

Bean

[Sophie-Jane]

Hi Bookworm - ML and Bean

 

Many thanks for your kind words

 

I'm still quite new to this, its only really been the past week since I started actions, Now sent off Preliminary letters to Lloyds TSB, MBNA and Clydesdale finance, just them 3 totals over £1200.

 

Its no wonder people get into so much debt, High charges for even going a penny over their overdraft limit

 

With Lloyds TSB, I noticed that I was going to go over on that morning, Now I had funds in internet savings held with Lloyds, so transferred them straight over, at get this 3AM.

Still 2 Direct debits failed, and at that point I had more than sufficient funds to cover.

 

It is about time that CONSUMER POWER dictated that High charges for us soals who are on a pittance of a wage, or hit hard times, should not be charged such high penalties.

Its hard enough these days with things like Council tax keep going up by at least 10% every year, Wish my wages reflected that type increase

[Bean]

Things will look a bit better when you are on the topside of a settlement or two.

 

Best Wishes,

Bean

[Bookworm]

The Office of Fair Trading (OFT) has ruled against retaliatory action

 

Where and when? Can you post a link?

 

If you look under "general" at the answer I got from the OFT, it seems to indicate that the OFT are going to do SFA about closure of accounts.

[Bean]

Sorry I can't provide a link. My comment was based on information posted by a member on this site. It was not based on the source. Despite searching for the posting I have not yet been able to track it down.

 

The specific phrase 'OFT has ruled against retaliatory action' is too long for a search (phrase too long, too many results to run it, etc) and a couple of words from it take a considerable time to go through. When I find it, I will report back.

 

In the meantime, based on what I can refer to, see:

Bankfodder's 'Have you had your account closed or been threatened with closure for claiming?'

JimTheGent's 'Re:Abbey - A New Argument?', 22 April 2006

Don Quioxte, 10 April 2006, in 'Re: Capital One won't budge' thread

 

To be specific, I think you may reasonably say that you will be observing and recording any retaliatory action (or attempts at retaliatory action?) and reporting this to the OFT on the basis that it is unfair under Schedule 2 of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999.

 

Do you agree Bookworm, others?

 

Regards,

Bean

[Dammam]

I'd say they'll generally shy away from closure, but I'd guess that if you have a habit of accruing charges (as I have) that they will do their best to make sure you don't have grounds to sue them again by changing your account to a basic one without debit card or cheque facilities.

 

And yes, you could end up going from bank to bank, but next time you would be for-armed, and wouldn't get to the position where you were in an endless spiral of charges causing bounced payments causing more charges etc.(not that you were, but myself and many others got into that situation).

[Sophie-Jane]

Hi Dammam, you are quite right

 

When I was with the A&L, the DD charges were taken away straight away, which put you in more of a problem, as you started to occur Overdraft Fees from day on, on some occasions I had charges to the MAX they could charge.

 

At least with Lloyds, you can budget for the forthcoming charges, as they would take them out later.

 

Kind of Lloyds that way, but when I heard it was illegal, I saw RED, and the rest is history, I am after blood, not so much with Lloyds, but A&L, who really did my head in.

 

Thanks everyone, I am passing the message on, this is such a wonderful site, about time WE the Consumer got Our Message across to them institutions who have screwed us all up at some time in our life, and it is normally, when we have an emergency in life that we need more help

 

 

I'd say they'll generally shy away from closure, but I'd guess that if you have a habit of accruing charges (as I have) that they will do their best to make sure you don't have grounds to sue them again by changing your account to a basic one without debit card or cheque facilities.

 

And yes, you could end up going from bank to bank, but next time you would be for-armed, and wouldn't get to the position where you were in an endless spiral of charges causing bounced payments causing more charges etc.(not that you were, but myself and many others got into that situation).

[Bean]

Sophie-Jane,

 

Please be careful with your terminology here, and when you talk to others about it. These charges are NOT illegal, they are unlawful.

 

There is an excellent, and essential clarification by Bookworm in a thread with shifty50dog, 10 March 2006:

 

"They're not illegal, they're unlawful:

 

unlawful:

1 : not lawful : not authorized or justified by law

2 : acting contrary to or in defiance of the law

 

illegal:

1 : Prohibited by law.

2 : Prohibited by official rules"

 

Understand that I am not writing this to have a go at you in any way. I support your position and want to help you ensure your claim, and those of others, have a positive outcome wherever the law supports that.

 

Best Wishes,

Bean

[Sophie-Jane]

Well as expected, they say the usaul blah

 

Not giving my money back at this stage

 

Well its the 2nd letter stage, and then the Court it seems

[Sophie-Jane]

Just received the reply back from the 2nd letter

 

As expected, no give up by them

 

So now moneyclaim is now in action

 

This following is the reply back from my 2nd letter

 

Thank you for your letter dated xxxx, I am sorry to hear that you have not been happy with my response to date.

 

Unfortunately there is little I am able to add to my letter dated xxxx and I am only able to refer you back to the terms and conditions of your account, although I do respect you opinion about our charges

 

This letter is the banks final response, which means that if you remain dissatisfied you may refer your complaint to the Financial Ombudsman Service. If you decide to pursue your complaint through the Financial Ombudsman Service you must do so within 6 months from the date of this letter. I have enclosed a leaflet, which outlines how to contact them.

 

Yours Sincerely

 

David Just

Assistant Manager

[Sophie-Jane]

Hi Everyone

 

I have now received the paperwork from the court, they are intending to defend the case

 

Their Solicitors are -

 

Martineau Johnson, 78 Cannon Street, London, EC4N 6NQ

 

 

Now I need to get Ready

I have the sound clip of Peter McNamara to copy onto CD, do I send this off to their solicitors, what other information do I need to collate, so we can have a successful action against Lloyds, If it does actually end up at the court?

 

All help is appreciated

[BankFodder]

You are at exactly the same stage as most people get too when they are dealing with Lloyds and with their solicitors. This doesn't mean that the case won't go to court. It could do quite easily and so you are right to be prepared. However the first thing that you have to do is to return the allocation questionnaire. You have a limited time to do this and you may well have to pay a fee. However you will get this feedback if you win and if the bank offers to settle then make sure that their settlement figure includes the fee.

I suggest that for the moment you simply keep on reading the forum material, gather your evidence, read your banking contract closely, and get ready to receive the court date. Once you are notified as to the hearing date then let us know and we will help you prepare thoroughly.

Of course we all know that Lloyds's defence is merely trying to say that the charges are not penalties, they are charges for a service. This means that they have abandoned all pretence that the charges actually reflect their administrative costs. They are now acknowledging very clearly that they are making a profit. This makes several bodies life much simpler because the only thing now that needs to be shown to the court is either

A) that the bank's so-called "charge for contractual services" is really a penalty in disguise or

B) that if the charge really is a charge for contractual service then it is highly excessive as they are only entitled to make be reasonable markup.

Let us know if you need any help with the allocation questionnaire but you don't need to do much other than read until you receive the court date

[Sophie-Jane]

How long after "Acknowledgement of Service" from Money Claim Online

will I receive this "allocation questionnaire" as I did not receive it with the "Acknowledgement of Service" ??

[Sophie-Jane]

8th June 2006

 

Just received the Defence from Lloyds TSB Solicitors - Martineau Johnson (London)

 

If the Moderators require a copy, Please ask, It will take a while to post the wording, So bear with me, as I'm off out at moment

[Bean]

Your claim is progressing well Sophie-Jane

 

Best Regards,

Bean

[Sophie-Jane]

Hi

 

NOw I have the defence from LTSB

 

I Have read about using the transcript and a CD of P McNamara

 

I have downloaded the Soundfile, but it is not compatable with Window Media Player

 

Has anyone got it, so that I am able to Transfer onto CD as an audio file using Windows Media Player?????

 

What else can I be doing in the mean time

 

Thanks everyone for your assistance upto now

[breadline]

Good luck Sophie-Jane

Go kick butt. fingers crossed you get something before court.

 

BL

[Sophie-Jane]

Here is LLOYDS TSB Defence

Sophie-Jane

and

Lloyds TSB Bank PLC

1 . The defendant Lloyds TSB Bank plc (the Bank) is a bank. It is admitted that the Claimant has been a customer of the Bank at all material times.

 

2. By opening an account with the Bank, the customer enters into a commercial arrangement with the Bank for the provision of banking services. The Bank is entitled, as part of that arrangement, to charge for those services. At account opening a customer is provided with details of the Bank's charges, currently in a leaflet a guide to our banking charges. By using the account, the customer acknowledges that the charges are incorporated into the contract. For personal customers, a number of services are provided for free, notwithstanding that they are an expense to the Bank. Such services presently include, but are not limited to, providing;

 

cheques

bank statements

the facility to make payments by direct debit and standing order

debit cards

ATMs (cash machines)

 

3. By maintaining the account in credit, or within any agreed with the Bank, the customer may avoid most if not all charges. If the customer fails to ensure that there are sufficient cleared funds in the account to cover payments, whether by cheque, debit card, standing order or direct debit, the customer makes a request for a payment to be made from the banks own funds. if the Bank makes payment, or charge in accordance with the terms of the contract. On page 1 of the leaflet, the Bank explains that "there are normally no charges for everyday banking at Lloyds TSB when your account is in credit.

 

When you use an agreed overdraft, there is no monthly fee and we only charge interest on the amount you are overdrawn each day. Where you go overdrawn without an agreement or where you use special services, such as copy statements, we will make a charge. This guide explains how these charges work, and when they will apply.

If you want to use a service that we haven't listed, we'll tell you the cost of that service before you give us the go-ahead".

 

4. There is no breach of contract; the charge cannot therefore be a penalty, consequently there is no requirement that the charge be a pre-estimate of the Bank's loss.

 

5. The customer is given advance warning of charges being imposed; statements show the charges, if any, the customer has incurred during the course of a month, and which appear as debits on the following month's statement. Cusomers are warned by letter when they go overdrawn or over their agreed limit without arrangement with the Bank. If the customer fails to remedy the position, and payments such as standing orders and direct debits are refused then again the customer is warned by letter.

 

6. The charges are fair and reasonable, and it is denied that they are unlawful.

 

7. The customer is notified of the charges in plain intelligible language at the conclusion of the contract, and on each monthly statement. The charges are terms which relate to the price payable by the customer for a service provided by the Bank, and pursuant to Regulation 6 of the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999, are not subject to the assessment of fairness.

 

8. It is denied that s15 of the Supply of Goods and Services Act applies to this claim, since the Bank provides details of all charges which are incorporated into the contract as pleaded in paragraph 2 above

 

9. In the premises:

9.1 the charges are for banking services, and are not damages nor a penalty;

9.2 the Bank is entitled by contract to impose the charges, which are fair and reasonable;

9.3 it is demied that the charges are unlawful or contravene any statue or regulation.

 

10. The claiment's claim is denied in its entirety. It is further denied that the Claiment is entitled to the sum claimed or to any sum from the Bank.

 

Statement of Truth signed by - Heather Leeson - Partner in Martineau Johnson

[Sophie-Jane]

Allocation Questionnaire received, got until 26th June to send back

 

Questions A to C, F, H and I are ok

 

 

Question D - I suppose that is zero

 

Question E - Experts - Apart from the Peter McNamara Transcript and CD (When I have an copy of the Windows Media format)

 

Question G - Other information

 

Please any help is very appreciated

 

About time these Banks got what they deserve to us hard working, under paid Normal People

[Janet-M]

Can you say what no form you have please ? and type the question you are asking out so you get an accurate answer .thanks

[Sophie-Jane]

Can you say what no form you have please ? and type the question you are asking out so you get an accurate answer .thanks

 

Hi mjanet

 

It is Form N149 - Allocation Questionnaire (Small Claims Track)

 

Many thanks in advance for your help, it is very much appreciated, this one if won, will help me fight the others, as this actually is one which will benefit me directly, not go back into the account as a credit. i.e - I will come off with some money and be able to donate further to this wonderful Site - Keep the Good work up

 

 

Question D - Witnesses - So far as you know at this stage, how many witnesses (other than yourself) do you intend to call to give evidence? (Number)

 

Question E - Experts - Do you want permission to use an expert's report at the hearing? - (Yes - No)

If Yes - What will the expert's evidence deal with?

__________

 

If Yes, have you given a copy of that report to the other party? - (Yes / No)

 

In addition to using an expert's report do you want your expert to attend the hearing and give evidence? (Yes / No)

 

If Yes, Give the reasons why you think their evidence is necessary:

__________

 

The court may order the appointement of a single expert who can be instructed by both parties, if you think this would be not appropiate, please say why.

__________

 

Question G - Other Information

In the space below, set out any other information you consider will help the judge to manage or clarify the claim, Including any other information you consider should be supplied by the other party.

 

__________

 

One thing comes to mind, about proving that the Penalty charges are fair and reflects the true cost to the Bank.

 

Clour Key - Blue = Answer needed, Red = My Notes, Black = Wording off Form N149 - Allocation Questionnaire (Small Claims Track)

 

Hope this helps, as I am sure this will also help other Claiments with these Rip off merchants, They had it too easy for many years now

 

Thanks again mjanet

[Janet-M]

Question D & E no

 

Quote:

Section D - Witnesses

So far as you know at this stage, how many witnesses (other than yourself) do you intend to call to give evidence at the hearing?

Enter the number of witnesses you intend to call to give evidence not including yourself or any expert witness - Typically this would be 0

 

Quote:

Section E - Experts

Do you want permission to use an expert’s report at the hearing?

Unless you know otherwise, TICK NO

 

If Yes, have you given a copy of that report to the other party? - (Yes / No)

 

In addition to using an expert's report do you want your expert to attend the hearing and give evidence? (Yes / No)

 

If Yes, Give the reasons why you think their evidence is necessary

 

N/A as no to main question

 

I can't find anything on G but I personally put that I wanted to use a tape machine ( cant remember what its called lol ) to play a recording incase my transcript of an interview was challenged.(thinking of macnamara transcript )

 

I am not saying this is the right thing to put , just that I put it there

[Sophie-Jane]

I can't find anything on G but I personally put that I wanted to use a tape machine ( cant remember what its called lol ) to play a recording incase my transcript of an interview was challenged.(thinking of macnamara transcript )

 

I am not saying this is the right thing to put , just that I put it there

 

Thank you for that info

 

I have now got the CD's Burnt, (3), Court, Defence and myself

 

When I send off the Questionnaire, Should I also send off the CD and Transcript along with the Questionnaore and also to the Defence - Am I right ??

 

Thanks again