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    • the claimant in their WS can refer to whatever previous CC judgements they like, as we do in our WS's, but CC judgements do not set a legal precedence. however, they do often refer to judgements like Bevis, those cases do created a precedence as they were court of appeal rulings. as for if the defendant, prior to the raising of a claim, dobbed themselves in as the driver in writing during any appeal to the PPC, i don't think we've seen one case whereby the claimant referred to such in their WS.. ?? but they certainly typically include said appeal letters in their exhibits. i certainly dont think it's a good idea to 'remind' them of such at the defence stage, even if the defendant did admit such in a written appeal. i would further go as far to say, that could be even more damaging to the whole case than a judge admonishing a defendant for not appealing to the PPC in the 1st place. it sort of blows the defendant out the water before the judge reads anything else. dx  
    • Hi LFI, Your knowledge in this area is greater than I could possibly hope to have and as such I appreciate your feedback. I'm not sure that I agree the reason why a barrister would say that, only to get new customers, I'm sure he must have had professional experience in this area that qualifies him to make that point. 🙂 In your point 1 you mention: 1] there is a real danger that some part of the appeal will point out that the person appealing [the keeper ] is also the driver. I understand the point you are making but I was referring to when the keeper is also the driver and admits it later and only in this circumstance, but I understand what you are saying. I take on board the issues you raise in point 2. Is it possible that a PPC (claimant) could refer back to the case above as proof that the motorist should have appealed, like they refer back to other cases? Thanks once again for the feedback.
    • Well barristers would say that in the hope that motorists would go to them for advice -obviously paid advice.  The problem with appealing is at least twofold. 1] there is a real danger that some part of the appeal will point out that the person appealing [the keeper ] is also the driver.  And in a lot of cases the last thing the keeper wants when they are also the driver is that the parking company knows that. It makes it so much easier for them as the majority  of Judges do not accept that the keeper and the driver are the same person for obvious reasons. Often they are not the same person especially when it is a family car where the husband, wife and children are all insured to drive the same car. On top of that  just about every person who has a valid insurance policy is able to drive another person's vehicle. So there are many possibilities and it should be up to the parking company to prove it to some extent.  Most parking company's do not accept appeals under virtually any circumstances. But insist that you carry on and appeal to their so called impartial jury who are often anything but impartial. By turning down that second appeal, many motorists pay up because they don't know enough about PoFA to argue with those decisions which brings us to the second problem. 2] the major parking companies are mostly unscrupulous, lying cheating scrotes. So when you appeal and your reasons look as if they would have merit in Court, they then go about  concocting a Witness Statement to debunk that challenge. We feel that by leaving what we think are the strongest arguments to our Member's Witness Statements, it leaves insufficient time to be thwarted with their lies etc. And when the motorists defence is good enough to win, it should win regardless of when it is first produced.   
    • S13 (2)The creditor may not exercise the right under paragraph 4 to recover from the keeper any unpaid parking charges specified in the notice to keeper if, within the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which that notice was given, the creditor is given— (a)a statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement; (b)a copy of the hire agreement; and (c)a copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hire agreement. As  Arval has complied with the above they cannot be pursued by EC----- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- S14 [1]   the creditor may recover those charges (so far as they remain unpaid) from the hirer. (2)The conditions are that— (a)the creditor has within the relevant period given the hirer a notice in accordance with sub-paragraph (5) (a “notice to hirer”), together with a copy of the documents mentioned in paragraph 13(2) and the notice to keeper; (b)a period of 21 days beginning with the day on which the notice to hirer was given has elapsed;  As ECP did not send copies of the documents to your company and they have given 28 days instead of 21 days they have failed to comply with  the Act so you and your Company are absolved from paying. That is not to say that they won't continue asking to be paid as they do not have the faintest idea how PoFA works. 
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Marston bailiffs sold my car while N244 processed by TEC


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Hello everyone,

I hope someone can help me get some sort of clarification and advise as to how to proceed next.

I will try and keep this brief.

I had moved out of the previous address and moved abroad in the car.

While I was abroad it seems all correspondence from TFL and Bailiffs were sent to the previous address, because the vehicle remained registered to the old address.

My previous address was in the Congestion Charge Zone, despite holding a Resident’s Discount I have been charged a full amount for crossing CC zone.

At the end of the months due to the TFL's system glitch the payment was not been processed via previously registered payment method (direct debit), and consequently, the TFL issued PCNs for non-payment of appropriate charge.

As a result, when I came back to the UK and rented accommodation at my current address, I have notified DVLA.

However, my car been seized by a bailiff and towed away without giving any notification.

 

I become aware after reporting to the police.

The vehicle contained exempt trading tools.

Notably, a new logbook arrived after 3 months when the car was towed away.

I have gone through the Statutory Declaration Out of Time process and have been granted permission to file my Stat Decs Out of Time by the Local County Court.

However, some of the N244 Applications were refused.

Despite the fact that most of the PCN were reissued to the current address, where I had a chance to challenge them, the bailiffs demanded to pay an initial debt including the paid penalties and the storage fees for all time while the car was stored at the car pound.

I was waiting for the hearing of my last N244 application at the Local County Court when I had a call from the person who had bought my car and was asking whether I can sell the car keys. Also, they stated the car boot was empty, neither construction tools nor personal belongings were contained in the car.

Please let me know what our next step is in this process.
Thanks

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I am very confused by some of what you have said above but hopefully things will become clearer if you could answer the following:

 

You mention that penalties had been issued by Transport for London.

 

How many penalties were issued?

How many Out of Time Statutory Declarations did you submit?

I am assuming that they were all initially rejected?

Did you submit all of the N244 Applications at the same time?

Was each N244 Application sent to the Traffic Enforcement Centre individually (in other words, if they were sent by email, was EACH application sent individually)?

If so, did you receive an automated email from the Traffic Enforcement Centre for each application?

Did you have to pay a fee to file the N244's or were you exempt from paying?

How much did you pay?

Did you request that the N244 Applications were to be decided with or without a personal hearing?

 

 

 

 

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Hello, 

 

Quote

How many penalties were issued?

TFL was  issued 23 PCNs. You might ask why  so many PCN's were issued. Once a vehicle registered for the  Congestion Charge (CC) AutopPay and for the CC Resident's Discount a  discounted rate of 90% collected  each month via the registered payment method (direct debit).

 

On 15/05/2020 at 13:35, Bailiff Advice said:

How many Out of Time Statutory Declarations did you submit?

The Statutory Declarations  Out of Time were submitted to the TEC online  in one go on 13.11.2018. The court officer refused all 23 applications in December, 2018. After that I have filed the N244 online again to the TEC asking to review the decision made made by the court officer. 

 

On 15/05/2020 at 13:35, Bailiff Advice said:

I am assuming that they were all initially rejected?

13 of the N244 application  were granted and later reissued to the current address.  Later  7 of the remained  N244 were refused as one of the TEC staff advised they have received my evidence of income ( all evidence was send online).

 

On 15/05/2020 at 13:35, Bailiff Advice said:

Was each N244 Application sent to the Traffic Enforcement Centre individually (in other words, if they were sent by email, was EACH application sent individually)?

Each application was sent separately with an attached evidence and X160 Ref number (Help with Fees)

 

On 15/05/2020 at 13:35, Bailiff Advice said:

Did you have to pay a fee to file the N244's or were you exempt from paying?

No, I was in low income, I was eligible to apply for help with fees by feeling x160, that I did online.

 

On 15/05/2020 at 13:35, Bailiff Advice said:

If so, did you receive an automated email from the Traffic Enforcement Centre for each application?

Yes, I have received a confirmation letter form the TEC.

 

On 15/05/2020 at 13:35, Bailiff Advice said:

Did you request that the N244 Applications were to be decided with or without a personal hearing?

Finally, I have filed  the remained  10 applications N244 asking the Tec  asking to  review the Deputy Judge's decision  the case to the local Court, where 5 applications were granted, 4 applications were refused and 1 application was lost ( the Tec confirmed it, the Local Court had never received the case papers).

Worth to note, all applications were review separately and the court hearing were stretched for almost a year.

Edited by Bolik
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Thank you for your earlier responses to my questions.

I have further queries on the N244 applications, but in the meantime, can you elaborate further on the actual seizure of the car.

 

You mention that you had a call from the person who purchased your car asking whether you can 'sell the car keys'' and that the 'boot was empty' and that construction tools and personal belongings appeared to be missing. 

 

I am assuming that the car was seized BEFORE you filed Out of Time witness statements (and N244 Applications). Is this the case?

 

Clearly, at some stage you SOLD the vehicle. I am confused at this because the title of this thread is : Bailiffs sold MY car while N244 processed by TEC.  When the car removed to the pound was it still owned by you? If so, when was this? 

 

When did you sell the car? 

How much was the sale price?

Did you advise DVLA of the sale?

When was the car sold by the bailiff company?

Do you have any idea how much it was sold for?

 

 

 

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Quote

 

Thank you for your earlier responses to my questions.

I have further queries on the N244 applications, but in the meantime, can you elaborate further on the actual seizure of the car.

 

You mention that you had a call from the person who purchased your car asking whether you can 'sell the car keys'' and that the 'boot was empty' and that construction tools and personal belongings appeared to be missing. 

 

I am assuming that the car was seized BEFORE you filed Out of Time witness statements (and N244 Applications). Is this the case?

 

 

Hello,  thanks for reply, 

 

The car was clamped and towed away  to bailiffs' car pound on 30 October 2018; 

I filled  and sent online to the TEC   22  of OOT applications on 13 November 2018;

So far 17 penalties were resent to my current address (17 of N244 were successive), 4 applications were refused, 1 application is in process;

I still waiting a date hearing, as the  last N244 was sent to Local County Court. In the end of March I received the telephone call from the person, who said he had purchased recently my car on the auction. He confirmed the model and registration number. He also stated the car was sold without documents and the keys for cheap,  therefore he asked if I still hold the keys and would I sell it to him. When I asked about the tools in the boot, he advised the car was empty, no trading tools nor personal belongings apart pair of shoes and working trousers. 

There was a full car boot of my construction trading tools worth near £1500.

 

Quote

Clearly, at some stage you SOLD the vehicle. I am confused at this because the title of this thread is : Bailiffs sold MY car while N244 processed by TEC.  When the car removed to the pound was it still owned by you? If so, when was this? 

When was the car sold by the bailiff company?

Do you have any idea how much it was sold for?

 

I am sorry for confusion, but I did not sold the car, it was towed away and it was remained at the bailiffs car pound.  The bailiff company has sold it presumably in February or March. I think it was sold for very cheap price. But I don't know, I can't find out it now due the Covid-19, as the Bailiffs are not operating currently.

Thanks 

 

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After they took the vehicle was you sent a notice containing an estimate of the sale price and details of the auction?

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

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I have attached the copy of letter sent to the previus address. This letter was mentioned in the Bailiffs' file history in responce to the DSAR Request.

But I never seen this letter because I haven't got any relation with old address anymore.

I never received correspondence regarding the sale of the car.

 

 

marstons goods removed valuation.pdf

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  • dx100uk changed the title to Marston bailiffs sold my car while N244 processed by TEC

images posted to screen converted to PDF

please read upload

thread title updated.

 

dx

 

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Thanks for the info

So the car was taken on the 30th of October and sold on the 14 November. As per the notice.

 

But you had sent your SD on the 13 of November, the day before it was sold?

 

I notice the valuation was above the warrant sum by quite an amount. Did you get a refund

 

Or was the rest made up of disspersements (storage))

Do you have a gbreakdown of appropriation of proceeds?

 

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

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6 hours ago, Bolik said:

I did not sold the car, it was towed away and it was remained at the bailiffs car pound.  The bailiff company has sold it presumably in February or March. I think it was sold for very cheap price. But I don't know, I can't find out it now due the Covid-19, as the Bailiffs are not operating currently.

Thanks

 

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Sorry, where was the car taken from? your drive or off the road?

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

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It was taken off the road at  the new address

 

At 22th of January during the conversation with Enforcement representatives

I have been told that in order to get the car I need to pay £20921,

where £7400 for the warrant

and £13470 are for the storage fees while the car was in car pound.

 

I have pointed out that 17 penalties from the warrant have been reissued by the TFL (due to the 17 granted n244) and paid Off.

 

My statement was ignored as representative advised they have not been informed.

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  • 4 months later...

In continuation to my the previous post

 

I would like to advise the car was sold on 13th March just before Covid-19 lockdown,

I have not been informed about the sale date, so I did not know about the auction and bailiffs auction.

 

Although I advised TFL (Creditor) in telephone conversation in beginning of March there is one ongoing application N244 to file a Statutory Declaration out of time still under review with TEC and County Court.


At this moment I still have not received any updates regarding the sale and personal belongings.


The court hearing will take place in November; that will last N244 application.


Although the vehicle has been sold, the Task Enforcement ignore my requests to provide with sale bill and receipt of the inventory of items.

 

I still have not receive a response from bailiffs of how I can collect my items removed from the vehicle before the sale. The TFL redirect with all enquires to bailiffs. 


 It seem I have been totally ignored by TFL and  their bailiffs. 

 

 I look forward for any feedback and advise.

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Did you not receive a notice of sale before the auction, stating time and place of sale and your amount outstanding?

Schedule 12

40(1)Before the sale, the enforcement agent must give notice of the date, time and place of the sale to the debtor and any co-owner.

(2)Regulations must state—

(a)the minimum period of notice;

(b)the form of the notice;

(c)what it must contain (besides the date, time and place of sale);

(d)how it must be given.

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

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Oops, i seem to have asked similar questions in May !

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

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1 minute ago, Peterbard said:
1 hour ago, Peterbard said:

Did you not receive a notice of sale before the auction, stating time and place of sale and your amount outstanding?

Schedule 12

40(1)Before the sale, the enforcement agent must give notice of the date, time and place of the sale to the debtor and any co-owner.

(2)Regulations must state—

(a)the minimum period of notice;

(b)the form of the notice;

(c)what it must contain (besides the date, time and place of sale);

(d)how it must be given.

I haven’t received any notices, although I had informed TfL and bailiffs about new current address. They just ignore it.

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Hi again

Thanks for your reply. Did you inform them of your change of address before the auction took place?

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

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Yes, I did. This information was reflected in their GDPR SAR response. I have filled a complaint to bailiffs agency requesting to explain why they ignore the regulations by not serving the debtor with the sale date and of the location where the auction will take place.  Below I have attached bailiffs response. 


You received no notice letters at your current address, but your vehicle was removed

When we receive warrant instructions, we’re also given case details about the person named on the warrant. This included a vehicle registration linked to the contraventions, which we located using our automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) system.

Although we are not told how warrant information has been obtained, the DVLA will often be the primary source for information relating to a contravening vehicle.

We also contacted the DVLA ourselves several times regarding cases in your name as part of our enforcement process, before the enforcement agent (EA) attended. This started from April 2018 through to September 2018 and the responses we received each time indicated the vehicle had remained registered in your name to the address of .... in postcode. Our correspondence prior to the EA’s attendance was posted to this address.

We located the vehicle on 30 October 2018 on ....(current address), postcode and the EA attended to take the vehicle into control.

However, as the only contact details we held for you at that time was the address; we did not have a property number for you at ...(current street name). 
 

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I see, did they leave a notice at your house when they took the ca or give any other indication that they did know the new address? Sounds a little suspect to me. 

 

How did they locate the vehicle in the first place, if it was parked outside your new address?

 

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

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Sorry should have re read your last response. Did you update your details via the V5 when you moved?

Edited by Peterbard
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DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

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Again based on the GDPR response  they had left notice attached on the car window. The car was park on the public road just opposite to the house at the current address. I did not knew it was taken away, so reported to the police. Thereafter,  I have been provided with bailiffs tel number. Yes I have sent logbook to update my address  in October, I believe it was around 18th of October, needs to double check it.But in November the DVLA requested to provide an additional evidence and proof of ownership. So the update procedures took about 3 months. DVLA issued a new logbook with my current address in February. 

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We have to have all the facts of course, otherwise we cannot give proper advice.

 

Sadly, in my opinion the EA has it right this time, by the 18th , the car had been sold. The bailiff can say you failed to update your address, which is an offence by the way. 

The car was seized on a highway, so they would have left it for two hours with a notice, then they entitled to remove it.

 

The notice you received(valuation) seems to cover all the requirements of part 39 and 40 of the act.

 

They should notify you of course of the current financial situation, how much is outstanding if  anything dispersion of proceeds  etc, I would write to them and the creditor about that. But otherwise....

 

 

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES TO COLD CALLERS PROMISING TO WRITE OFF YOUR DEBTS

DO NOT PAY UPFRONT FEES FOR COSTLY TELEPHONE CONSULTATIONS WITH SO CALLED "EXPERTS" THEY INVARIABLY ARE NOTHING OF THE SORT

BEWARE OF QUICK FIX DEBT SOLUTIONS, IF IT LOOKS LIKE IT IS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT INVARIABLY IS

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But I have updated by sending the old logbook to DVLA just after 3 days after moving in to the new property.  So I have done everything from my side as law stated so. 
I know it will be difficult to argue about this with bailiffs who also have own prescribed methods. But the fact the same, the previous notices had been sent to the previous address while I was living abroad for several months. 
Concerning the contacting to creditor and bailiffs, the problem is both still did not responded on  two my requests since August. 

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