Me vs Them HSBC Chaps

[footieuk]

I have had enough! I am about to send this to my manager (who has a neame, phone number and email address) I would like some feedback before I send it:

 

Dear XXXXX,

 

Thank you for your phone call yesterday, I received the default notice this morning.

 

This has prompted me to write to you concerning excessive charges being levied on my accounts as a result of unpaid item charges, and excess overdraft charges.

 

It is my understanding that the amount that a bank can legally charge (under consumer law and specifically the Unfair Contracts act 1999) for these transactions should not exceed the actual cost to the bank of performing the task of returning those items, and since you charge different amounts for items of different value that leads me to believe that you are operating a system which does exceed the actual cost of returning an item.

 

Surely the action of returning an item is the same for a transaction of £10 as it is for £100 - it can't cost you any different, it requires the same intervention. I would understand that if the intervention is done by human hand rather than by automated computer command, there may be a difference in cost, however I notice that in the past you have charged me a "management fee" for returning items, as a lower cost option, which would suggest that a manual intervention is still realistically at lower cost than is suggested by the level of charges being applied. Perhaps you could explain this system of charging and justify the cost to me.

 

Can you also explain to me how, in this age of computers, a transaction ever gets to the point of having to be returned in the first place. I have a couple of examples of this which involves transactions using a Maestro card: If I got to an ATM and try to draw funds from my account, and there aren't funds in my account top draw, the transaction is rejected at no cost. Similarly, if I make a Maestro payment, and there are insufficient funds in my account, the transaction is rejected - again at no cost.

 

However if an electronic request is made to pay a direct debit the same rules apply, yet there is an open door for the DD to get into the system. Why is the door not closed if there are insufficient funds in the account to pay the item? I do not see how the electronic system, particulary a sytem as sophisticated as yours, is actually any different between the two types of transaction - although I could see that a cheque may be different as it is a physical item which needs to be partly processed manually.

 

I estimate that over the past six years I have paid somewhere in the order of £5000 in excess overdraft fees and returned item charges, and in addition to that I have paid various management fees and have been charged higher rates of interest on exceeded overdraft limits. How can you justify charging an excess overdraft fee in instances where the overdraft interest is already at a much higher rate than the agreed overdraft rate. It would seem that this should be deemed to be an interest payment also, and as such should be incorporated in the APR figure published, as required by law.

 

With relation to the above, and in respect of both my Business and Personal accounts, and under the data protection act, I would therefore request that you inform me of:

 

The number of automated returned item transactions that have occurred in the past six years

The number of returned item charges that have required manual intervention in the past six years

The cost charged for each of those transactions

The total amount of excess overdraft fees that have been charged over the past six years

 

 

When I took out my small business loan in February this year, it was used, partly, to pay off an existing personal loan. The amount paid at the time included all of the life of loan interest due. Since this loan was paid off early, there was a refund of interest due. However this refund was not made until some six weeks later. Perhaps you can explain why this was, and if the interest refunded included interest due over the six week period whilst it was in "limbo"

 

what do you think

 

Footieuk

[HSBCrusher]

Hello and welcome!

 

Nice letter, but I think the one in our library would be better. It's shorter and does the job very well. They will not send you details, you will get statements.

 

All the best with your claim!

 

Keep us posted!

 

Crusher

[footieuk]

Ok, thanks for that.

 

This guy is my Business manager, and have had a long dialogue with him over a long period of time - which is perhaps a little unusual these days.

 

Recently things have got very tough from a financial point of view, and ~I want to give him a bit of verbal to let him wriggle a bit. I feel that he should be my first point of contact. I could just send the general letter to HSBC at the same time tho.

 

I appreciate your feedback,

 

Best Footieuk

[HSBCrusher]

I see.

 

The letter will end up going to the head office in any case.... to Mr Bowden or Mr Langdale or one of their minions, your chap will not deal with it.

 

Its nice to let them squirm for a change though!

[footieuk]

So do you think I should send it? (witha few minor mods, which I have noticed)

 

After all - nothing ventured nothing gained...

 

LOL

 

Footieuk

[footieuk]

Well here we are - nearly Christmas, and I still haven't sent the letter. I'm still feeling a bit wobbly. Question: Should I do both my Personal and Business accounts in one hit, or should I do separate claims for each?

 

I am getting very close to proceeding with this and its a glitch I have been wondering about..

[steve_n]

Hi,

I agree with HSBC crusher (a very experienced member) keep things short (and sweet) you can try your account manager, but I went personally to my local HSBC branch before I started proceedings, sat for 2 hours with an 'account advisor' who flatly refused to refund any charges whatsoever . . . even when I pointed out that 'in my opinion they were unlawful' to which he replied Oh no there NOT "young man" and sat sneering at me . . I promptly left, and ALL they subsequently sent me was a "Schadule of Repayment" (invite to a managed account in diguise) for my overdraft which I quickly rejected thankfully. Personally I would teat ea account seperately, it will make things easier when (if) you get to the court stage !

You need to get the letters off asap, as the avg timespan for a claim is currently running at 2 months, so what with xmas hols etc you could be looking at Feb 07 !!!

 

Good luck,

[footieuk]

OK, Thanks for that. I could be crafty and use Christmas to my advantage.. ie there are a number of days because of Christmas that they can't respond, which would make the 40 days even shorter for them

 

I have spent a lot of time reading this website over the past several weeks, and new things keep coming to light. Some of these are beyond the remit of what is being achieved here, but given that we all hate banks I will toss this into the mix for your digestion. Since I have a business and personal account with HSBC, both of which struggle along (I am self employed), the bank ROUTINELY moves money from the business account to the personal account to keep it within its limit. Whilst this is quite useful, it does not help me manage my money very easily. I have never really thought much about this, and they have been doing it for years. But reading one or two other examples here, I now wonder if they can do this legitimately. They don't tell me they have done it, they just do it. What do you think? are they breaking the banking code or any other code - or law?

 

I could make this claim very complex, by going back more than 6 years, and adding compound interest etc, I'm not sure how to proceed. At the end of the day I will almost certainly terminate my business with them. I also have a First Direct account - will this be affected? At least, ironically, First Direct seem to be more ethical, in that they don't apply the charges until the end of the following month, whereas HSBC add it instantly.

 

They are currently threatening to pull a £18K loan on me, since I am now in default - all because they have been doing Bounce City on my accounts in the last 3 months. So just to keep you up to date and fully informed.

 

I would be interested for any input to these points. In the meantime they will get the prelim letter(s) this week.

 

Footieuk

[Michael Browne]

Should I do both my Personal and Business accounts in one hit, or should I do separate claims for each?

Separate claims - consumer laws do not apply to business a/c's

 

 

They don't tell me they have done it, they just do it. What do you think? are they breaking the banking code or any other code - or law?

 

They can do this, it'll be in their t & c's somewhere.

[lateralus]

more reading for you:

Why is no one claiming the contractual rate of interest??? (1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page) and

Do you have charges going back more than 6 years? (1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page) and

Bong v HSBC *Contractual Interest & 13yr claim* (1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page)

and one more for good measure:A New Way of Looking at Interest- 1st successful Claim - N'wide (1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page)

hope that helps!

[footieuk]

Gosh. Thanks, I've been following Bong which is what brought it to mind... as for 6 years? well i'll have to go to the attic to find the file. That could take a LONG time.

 

Watch this space

[lateralus]

didn't mean to put you off - just you seemed to have some issues and thot maybe reading these might help. there is no time limit as far as starting your process but i wouldn't leave it too long - this gravy train may grind to a halt with one well placed court case or some other factor.

don't leave it too long will you....

[footieuk]

Np - I'm on the case. I will write the prelim this week (scrapping my original from earlier post), do it for separate accounts and then whamo!! (I hope)

[steve_n]

You won't have to worry if your attic mice have munched everything, you have a couple of options:-

 

You can download the info from the HSBC internet banking site into a spreadsheet - or - you can write/e-mail them asking for the last 6 years worth of statements !!

 

There is more than one way to skin the HSBC 'cat'

 

Steve.

[footieuk]

OK - I have done the attic, and done the spreadsheet for both accounts. WOW was i shocked, surprised, delighted? My personal account has attracted charges of £5.1K since 01/01/01 and the business account about £1.6K. THAT IS A LOT OF CASH!!!!!! and excludes any interest either. Tomorrow my bank manager (as I previously said I actually have one, his name is ****) will be getting an email. I will run it by you guys first - so it may be Wednesday that I send it.

 

Where do I find the interest rates to put into the spreadsheet? I have been using the advanced spreadsheet btw - but it will only do the 8% automatically, I have to put in the banks rate manually. Will they be on the HSBC website? I'll post again soon

 

Footieuk

[lateralus]

make sure you include overdraft interest by using the advanced spreadsheet - anything with a DR next to in on the s tatements - at that level it is sure to add another chunk (maybe you already have).

i'm sure everyone is saying you can override that 8% interest for the claim stage - are you going for contractual? those threads i gave you above should talk about the how-to's. good luck. if not, pm bong - she's a wiz at this stuff.

[footieuk]

Thanks lateralus. Sometimes the charges are withdrawn and leave a credit balance on the account, so presumably I just enter the balance as a credit in that column.

 

I will get in touch with bong, as I am a little confused. After all if they have taken my money unnlawfully (which it seems they have) then they should repay it all with interest, regardless of the balance of the account. Its all a little complicated, but I will perservere. As I have read elsewhere its important to get it right, and a few days doesn't make a lot of difference!! I'll keep you posted

 

Footieuk

[footieuk]

I have now downloaded the prelim letter and started work on it. I have a couple of questions regarding this: In the section "What I require" the xxxx figures should reflect what precisely? Is the first for bounced items and the second for overdraft fees?

 

They have aslo issued me (just) with a second default notice on an outstanding loan. I should be able to pay this by the end of the week, but should I perhaps lodge a dispute with the bank at this stage (ie as part of the prelim letter), or allow them to respond to my prelim letter (as it stands). This would stop them from passing information on to the credit agencies (my Credit rating is in dust on the floor at the moment as it is, and I don't really want anyone to set fire to what is left)

 

So far as claiming the interest is concerned, I think that I won't pursue the contractual rate. I'm not sure that I'm bold enough! FWIW I will lodge a separate claim for the business acoount, but will leave that until after Christmas. I'll start a separate thread for that.

 

Thanks for all your interest...

 

Footieuk

[lateralus]

have a look at the post i wrote on this thread - post number 9: it should clear up any confusion on the o/d interest:HONEYGIE sees you HSBC! (1 2

[footieuk]

OK, got it. I understand. Thanks Lateralus. So shall I just go for 15.9% - or is it more complicated than that? I seem to remember that for the first few years of the six under consideration my standard rate of interest was 3% over base. Do I ignore that? and just charge 15.9% - or play safe and ultimately go for 8% and in the meantime just state "plus applicable interest"?

 

What do you think?

 

Footieuk

[lateralus]

hope you aren't asking me! i'm the spreadsheet for dummies lady - i don't understand any of that contractual stuff - somebody???????? actually, i've seen it discussed a lot but never paid much attention - think there's a lot of discussion on it on ian's thread just lately: Who's claiming contractual compound interest good luck.