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    • Thank-you dx, What you have written is certainly helpful to my understanding. The only thing I would say, what I found to be most worrying and led me to start this discussion is, I believe the judge did not merely admonish the defendant in the case in question, but used that point to dismiss the case in the claimants favour. To me, and I don't have your experience or knowledge, that is somewhat troubling. Again, the caveat being that we don't know exactly what went on but I think we can infer the reason for the judgement. Thank-you for your feedback. EDIT: I guess that the case I refer to is only one case and it may never happen again and the strategy not to appeal is still the best strategy even in this event, but I really did find the outcome of that case, not only extremely annoying but also worrying. Let's hope other judges are not quite so narrow minded and don't get fixated on one particular issue as FTMDave alluded to.
    • Indians, traditionally known as avid savers, are now stashing away less money and borrowing more.View the full article
    • the claimant in their WS can refer to whatever previous CC judgements they like, as we do in our WS's, but CC judgements do not set a legal precedence. however, they do often refer to judgements like Bevis, those cases do created a precedence as they were court of appeal rulings. as for if the defendant, prior to the raising of a claim, dobbed themselves in as the driver in writing during any appeal to the PPC, i don't think we've seen one case whereby the claimant referred to such in their WS.. ?? but they certainly typically include said appeal letters in their exhibits. i certainly dont think it's a good idea to 'remind' them of such at the defence stage, even if the defendant did admit such in a written appeal. i would further go as far to say, that could be even more damaging to the whole case than a judge admonishing a defendant for not appealing to the PPC in the 1st place. it sort of blows the defendant out the water before the judge reads anything else. dx  
    • Hi LFI, Your knowledge in this area is greater than I could possibly hope to have and as such I appreciate your feedback. I'm not sure that I agree the reason why a barrister would say that, only to get new customers, I'm sure he must have had professional experience in this area that qualifies him to make that point. 🙂 In your point 1 you mention: 1] there is a real danger that some part of the appeal will point out that the person appealing [the keeper ] is also the driver. I understand the point you are making but I was referring to when the keeper is also the driver and admits it later and only in this circumstance, but I understand what you are saying. I take on board the issues you raise in point 2. Is it possible that a PPC (claimant) could refer back to the case above as proof that the motorist should have appealed, like they refer back to other cases? Thanks once again for the feedback.
    • Well barristers would say that in the hope that motorists would go to them for advice -obviously paid advice.  The problem with appealing is at least twofold. 1] there is a real danger that some part of the appeal will point out that the person appealing [the keeper ] is also the driver.  And in a lot of cases the last thing the keeper wants when they are also the driver is that the parking company knows that. It makes it so much easier for them as the majority  of Judges do not accept that the keeper and the driver are the same person for obvious reasons. Often they are not the same person especially when it is a family car where the husband, wife and children are all insured to drive the same car. On top of that  just about every person who has a valid insurance policy is able to drive another person's vehicle. So there are many possibilities and it should be up to the parking company to prove it to some extent.  Most parking company's do not accept appeals under virtually any circumstances. But insist that you carry on and appeal to their so called impartial jury who are often anything but impartial. By turning down that second appeal, many motorists pay up because they don't know enough about PoFA to argue with those decisions which brings us to the second problem. 2] the major parking companies are mostly unscrupulous, lying cheating scrotes. So when you appeal and your reasons look as if they would have merit in Court, they then go about  concocting a Witness Statement to debunk that challenge. We feel that by leaving what we think are the strongest arguments to our Member's Witness Statements, it leaves insufficient time to be thwarted with their lies etc. And when the motorists defence is good enough to win, it should win regardless of when it is first produced.   
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      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
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Deposit problems


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Ok, slighly messy one here....

 

I moved out of a rented house in January 05 (nearly 2 years ago), after renting it for about 18 months.

 

The owner of the property was a Major in the army, and not based in the UK, so I always dealt with his retired father, who turned out to be a nasty piece of work.

 

The last few months, the landlord was very unreasonable when I spoke to him regarding problems at the property, and got very threatening when my rent was paid late on a few occasions.

 

My business was in the process of going bust at this point, so I was struggling with always paying the rent on the due date. However when I left the property, the rent was up to date.

 

I was very ill at the point I moved out, and although I moved all my posessions out in time, I didn't have time to clean the property fully, so wrote a letter to the director of the letting company. As they were paid to do the management, and these people I paid the rent to, they should have been my point of contact, not the old bastard. This letter asked if they could arrange for the cost of cleaning to be removed from my deposit.

 

The house was left in good condition - no damage, and I even got a friend to help paint over any marks on the walls, so any marks left were definitely reasonable wear and tear.

 

The whole experience was most unpleasant, and to be honest for a while afterwards I didn't get around to requesting my deposit back.

 

It is now nearly 2 years later, and I don't see why the hell I shouldn't have MY money returned. I have spoken to the letting agency, who are in the process of getting the file out of archives, to see what the situation is.

 

They think it is possible the deposit was returned to the landlord due to arrears, damage etc. but will confirm this next week.

 

There were no arrears and the property was not damaged, so they can't have any evidence of this. The deposit was for £795, so even with the cleaning bill removed, there should be a fair chunk left.

 

Does the timescale involved affect anything, or am I still entitled to get my cash back? My understanding is that a deposit is held in trust, so surely it is not for them to do anything with it other than return it?

 

Any advice would be appreciated.

 

Pete

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TFD in reply to your post and in my opinion,

 

1.You have 6 years to claim from the date of departure against your ex-landlord.

 

2.Wait for a reply from the letting agent.

 

3.If there is no refund,issue a Letter Before Action in order to pre warn the agent/landlord of pending legal action.You should allow up to 1 month for a response - there should be a template letter in the library on this forum.

 

4.If no refund is received after the one month has lapsed issue a summons to the company/person whose details are as written in your previous tenancy agreement.

 

I hope you find this information useful.

 

If you need more help,just ask.

 

Keep us posted.

 

All the best!

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As a point of note, it will reflect badly upon yourself in small claims not claiming within a fairly reasonable time period, although any extenuating circumstances would obviously help in this matter. This is not to say that it is not a legitimate claim, but judges often look badly upon what they see as frivolous claims.

7 years in retail customer service

 

Expertise in letting and rental law for 6 years

 

By trade - I'm an IT engineer working in the housing sector.

 

Please note that any posts made by myself are for information only and should not and must not be taken as correct or factual. If in doubt, consult with a solicitor or other person of equal legal standing.

 

Please click the star if I have helped!!

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Thanks for the replies. The letting agents were the management company - I paid them the deposit, and paid them the rent, and it is them that would have refunded me. Am I right in thinking I should be taking action against them not the landlord?

 

I would like to hope that this can be resolved without going to court, and obviously if I can understand my rights a bit better, hopefully I can avoid them fobbing me off.

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No it must be the landlord you sue. You have no contract with the agent.

7 years in retail customer service

 

Expertise in letting and rental law for 6 years

 

By trade - I'm an IT engineer working in the housing sector.

 

Please note that any posts made by myself are for information only and should not and must not be taken as correct or factual. If in doubt, consult with a solicitor or other person of equal legal standing.

 

Please click the star if I have helped!!

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TFD in reply to your last post:

 

1.There have been one or two people on this forum that have had a similar problem to yours regarding the deposit etc.The court staff suggested that the ex-tenant is to sue the person/company that the rent has been paid to.

 

2.Although,I do agree totally with what Mr.Shed has posted because

the agent is acting on behalf of the landlord.You could of course find out the landlord's details either from the land registry or the following website maybe useful:

 

192.com - The Largest UK Directory Enquiry Service

 

 

3.However,concerntrate on resolving the matter amicably because this would be frowned on by judge(the fact that you did not give the agent/landlord ample time to resolve matter without going to court) more than a delay in issuing a summons relating to a genuine claim.I have personally issued claims in the 5th year of the 6year limit and I have won.However,you need to have every bit of information presented properly so that you can succeed.

 

4.Read through the other posts within the Landlord & Tenant section on this forum to see how the best ways of tackling your problem.

 

I hope you find this information useful

 

If you have any more questions,just ask.

 

Keep us posted.

 

All the best!

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N4B - I appreciated all your help, cheers.

 

I have had dealings with the director of the letting agents in the past, and he seemsed like a reasonable guy, so hopefully I can resolve this amicably. I have made it clear in my contact with them this time that I would prefer to resolve this without legal action, so I'm still hopeful that this is possible. I just want to get my facts straight beforehand in case they don't want to play fair.

 

Thanks again - they reckon they will let me know what the position is on my deposit this week, so I'll keep you posted...

 

Pete

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There is no question that the landlord is the only person you can sue for the deposit. From the eyes of a tenant, legally, the agent and the landlord are one and the same in a legal sense, as the agent is "agent" for the landlord.

7 years in retail customer service

 

Expertise in letting and rental law for 6 years

 

By trade - I'm an IT engineer working in the housing sector.

 

Please note that any posts made by myself are for information only and should not and must not be taken as correct or factual. If in doubt, consult with a solicitor or other person of equal legal standing.

 

Please click the star if I have helped!!

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Mr Shed,

 

1.Whilst I agree with you regarding the legality of the relationship between the landlord and agent - here I am referring to the issue of where to issue the notices and summons papers.You must serve the papers on the correct address - something which has already been highlighted

 

2.However,there is a line which can be drawn where the landlord cannot be held liable for the actions of the agent mainly for example if an agent assaulted a tenant.Only the agent would be liable for prosecution and to pay compensation to the tenant unless of course there was evidence to show the contrary.

 

Anyway this is my 2p's worth!

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I don't realyl understand what you mean N4B. Service of papers must be served to the landlords address, obviously. And any action taken by the agent with regards to the letting of the property is as if the landlord was doing it. Obviously any actions taken which are not to do with the letting of the property is the responsibility of the person themselves, as they are no longer acting as an agent.

 

I am not saying you are wrong N4B, I just don't quite understand what you mean! :)

7 years in retail customer service

 

Expertise in letting and rental law for 6 years

 

By trade - I'm an IT engineer working in the housing sector.

 

Please note that any posts made by myself are for information only and should not and must not be taken as correct or factual. If in doubt, consult with a solicitor or other person of equal legal standing.

 

Please click the star if I have helped!!

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Mr.Shed,

 

I do not think I am wrong and if I am please correct me!

 

I totally accept constructive criticism.

 

Anyway,perhaps I have not made myself clear:

 

The main question here is:

 

How can a former tenant serve a notice/summons on an owner whose address is unknown if the tenant has been paying the rent throughout the duration of the tenancy to the agent?

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Ah...sorry I understand your point :) Unfortunately, its very much a case of c'est la vie. Like any other summons(a particular example I can think of is the reverse - a landlord suing an ex tenant), you mustfirst locate that person, and it is your responsibility to do so. If you cannot locate the ex landlord, then you cannot then decide that the responsibility lies with the easy target - unfortunately. However, there is a VERY useful tool for ex tenants to find the address of their landlord - the land registry. For about £2-3, you can get the address of the landlord from their records on the rental property.

 

And you probably did make it clear N4B - I think my hangover is kicking in!!! :)

7 years in retail customer service

 

Expertise in letting and rental law for 6 years

 

By trade - I'm an IT engineer working in the housing sector.

 

Please note that any posts made by myself are for information only and should not and must not be taken as correct or factual. If in doubt, consult with a solicitor or other person of equal legal standing.

 

Please click the star if I have helped!!

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Am I right in thinking that finding the address this way does not fulfil the landlord's obligation as regards providing a contact address?

HSBCLloyds TSBcontractual interestNew Tax Creditscoming for you?NTL/Virgin Media

 

Never give in ... Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy. Churchill, 1941

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The landlord is only obliged to provide his contact address DURING the tenancy if asked. After the tenancy has finished, he has no such obligation.

7 years in retail customer service

 

Expertise in letting and rental law for 6 years

 

By trade - I'm an IT engineer working in the housing sector.

 

Please note that any posts made by myself are for information only and should not and must not be taken as correct or factual. If in doubt, consult with a solicitor or other person of equal legal standing.

 

Please click the star if I have helped!!

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I'm thinking of during the tenancy. Finding the address via Land Registry is brought up frequently, and this point hasn't really been made clear at any point.

HSBCLloyds TSBcontractual interestNew Tax Creditscoming for you?NTL/Virgin Media

 

Never give in ... Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy. Churchill, 1941

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OK. For a tenancy to be set up and legally accepted, the landlord must provide the tenant with a Section 20 notice at the outset of the tenancy. This S20 is almost always simply provided as part of the AST - it basically includes the name and address of the landlord, or name and address of someone else acting upon his behalf in England and Wales. Incidentally, this is why if you are letting out property when you live abroad somewhere, you must provide the name and address of a representative in E+W. If this information is not provided, rent is not legally payable, and any eviction notice will fail until such information is provided.

 

If the name+address given is that of a representative of the landlord, then at any point during the tenancy a tenant can formally request(not neccessarily in writing, but obviously difficult to prove if not) the name and address of the actual landlord. The representative(usually a letting agent) must provide these details within 28 days of the request, or they are breaching the Housing Act. It is not the responsibility of the tenant to find out these details other than formally requesting them. Therefore the short answer to your question is no, it would not fulfil the agent's(NOT the landlord's) obligation to provide such details on request. Hope that helps :)

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7 years in retail customer service

 

Expertise in letting and rental law for 6 years

 

By trade - I'm an IT engineer working in the housing sector.

 

Please note that any posts made by myself are for information only and should not and must not be taken as correct or factual. If in doubt, consult with a solicitor or other person of equal legal standing.

 

Please click the star if I have helped!!

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To all!

 

Keep it simple!

 

Do as folows:

 

1.Issue a notice to the person/company and address as written in the lease.

 

2.If there is no joy get a court order for disclosure if the judge does not request the address/details himself/herself or go down the land registry/192.com routes.

 

3.Then you(here meaning previous tenant) are ready to kick some a**!

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