The European Union.....In or Out?

[buckthorn]

France has said if the UK decides to leave the EU it may close down border controls in Calais and Dunkirk,

so that the economic migrants would come straight to the UK, and we would have to sort them out.

 

These are the same people who the stay campaign call our friends, this sounds like blackmail to me, why

would I want friends like that?

 

I think the French like having these people in these ports, as they can use them as bargaining tools.

 

If they really wanted to get rid of them they could get them out of the country within days, just put them

on trains and send them to Germany, they seem to want them.

[buckthorn]

I agree with you tj, but if France just shipped them out/put them on trains,

which they could do within days we would not have a problem at these ports in the first place..

[buckthorn]

All these scaremongers, are interested in is looking after

themselves and sod the rest of us.

[i]Who wants us to stay in:- those who have something to gain

from our membership as they have been Commissioners in the

EU, and will get big pensions which they will lose if we leave.

[/i]

Mandelson a £34,000 annual pension.

Ashton, if she had been employed by a business she would have been sacked, as she was rubbish.

Kinnock, well what can I say about him not much!!!

Patten, WHO!

Lord Hill, just been appointed by Cameron.

And then you have Blair, he wanted to be EU president, do you think that that is what Cameron wants to be???

[buckthorn]

The truth hurts, would you trust the French ?

[buckthorn]

no wonder we have got problems.

[buckthorn]

What a horrendous post.

The migrants may be illegal and a problem, and France and Germany may well have the infrastructure to move millions via rail or road,

but the sort of hate rhetoric you post there has no place in a modern society or reasoned debate.

 

History goes down the pan.

[buckthorn]

The preamble "ever closer union" was already in the 1957 treaty of Rome. When Britain joined the EEC in 1973, the preamble was already there.

When voters voted to stay in the EEC in 1975, they voted to agree with that preamble. No excuses can be taken.

 

The bigots who rant about a presumed dictatorship of the EU, are happy to clean for the queen, an unelected millionaire who is actually half German.

 

The population of this country were not told in 1975 what the result of joining the Common Market (it was for trade) would be, they were lied to and kept in the dark. Just like the country is today by Cameron and his cronies.

An internal government memorandum said;

 

“I enclose a draft on sovereignty…We are rather worried about the impact on Parliamentary opinion…the fact of the primacy of community legislation cannot be disguised. But I feel that there is a case for omitting it altogether.”

 

A British Foreign Office paper is quite explicit;

“Community law is required to take precedence over domestic law: i.e. if a Community law conflicts with a statute, it is the statute which has to give way….the community system requires that such Community Law as applies directly as law in this country should by virtue of its own legal force as law in this country prevail over conflicting national legislation.”

(FCO 30/1048, National Archives)

 

So when, in the October 1974 General Election, Harold Wilson’s Labour Party manifesto included a pledge to renegotiate terms for Britain’s membership and then hold a referendum, (now were have I heard that before) the loss of sovereignty was an issue about which not merely the entire ‘yes’ campaign wanted to keep quit but also the Government itself. (we could be talking about this referendum)

Edited March 8, 2016 by Conniff
add - tidied up formatting - added quotes

[buckthorn]

The population of this country could have taken the time to read the EEC treaty before relying on being told what to do by their betters.

 

What a sanctimonious/patronising statement, I suppose you read every bit of literature published at the time????

most of what we know now was not available at the time, as the government of the day did not want the general public to know what they were signing up for.

Edited March 10, 2016 by buckthorn
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[buckthorn]

It is the duty of a good citizen to be informed of the laws they are voting about. No excuses!

give me a link to the relevant information, that would have kept the general public informed.

[buckthorn]

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=URISERV%3Axy0023

 

I have read your link top to bottom and it is irrelevant in relation to 1974/75, at that time very few of the general public had computers,(I never knew anybody with one) so were unable like today to access that information, which suited the government of the day, which was to keep the real purpose of the then common market.

 

Today you have that advantage so are able to look up the relevant information.

 

These are the original leaflets posted through every letter box in the UK.

 

1. Is the government issue leaflet, with all the same propaganda that you are getting from the in mob today, if we don’t vote to stay we will as a country disintegrate.

2. Is the leaflet produced by the in mob with the same rubbish as the governments leaflet.

3. This leaflet is from OUT it is the only leaflet to give any honest information, to the general public.

 

So please don’t say the general public should have done their researched, it was just not available at the time, and even if it had been it was not made available to the public because government did not want the country to know what they were signing up to.

Edited March 12, 2016 by Conniff
correct typo

[buckthorn]

If you are under 50 you won’t remember the convolutions surrounding

British entry into the European Union. Even fewer will know the true story

of what was going on behind the scenes.

 

Having scanned the internet I am sure some of you will know that the

UK first applied in 1961 but two vetoes by de Gaulle, kept us out for over

a decade. (pity we could not have been kept out permanently).

Our entry was finally pushed through, without a referendum, in 1972

by Heath’s Conservative government. But the issue was always filled with

controversy particularly in the Labour party then led by Wilson.

 

Wilson had famously shown his attitude to the truth when in 1967 he devalued

the pound but claimed that this did not mean that ‘the pound in our pocket’ had

been devalued! For a former Oxford University economics lecturer, it was both

literally and figuratively an unbelievable position to take. (It is now regularly

used to illustrate a politician trying to argue that black is white!) This

approach characterised what happened over Britain’s European Community membership.

 

The British establishment knew perfectly well that the long-term implications for

British democracy and self-government were profound and damaging to the country.

 

Papers not then publicly available tell us that the government’s own

expert legal advisers were clear about what would be given away.

 

See my thread No 150—An internal government memo—Foreign office papers.

[buckthorn]

Cameron is an idiot. The Brexit vote has wider political implications which could prove to be a nightmare, if people vote for Brexit.

 

Retired General Mike Jackson discusses some of the issues in the article linked to.

 

N. Irish Unionists are for Brexit, because they see it as cementing N.Irelands future within the UK. There would not be the EU considerations, where they are cooperating fully with the Irish government who would be backed by the EU. If the troubles start up again in N.Ireland, it will be the sense of national identity being stirred up again, as to whether people look to Dublin or London.

 

I find it rather hypocritical that one minute you run the Mail down, and yet when it suits you quote it as the truth.

[buckthorn]

There’s a saying once bitten twice shy, the country was conned into

voting to stay in the common market, (not given the relevant information

to make a rational judgement so it’s no good saying people should have

done their homework, information was just not made available deliberately

to keep the general public in the dark).

 

Key elements of our constitution are 1.-freedom under the law to do whatever

is not explicitly forbidden; 2.-independence of the judiciary; 3.-the presumption of innocence;

4.-the right of an accused person to be faced by his accuser and to cross-examine him/her.

None of these are compatible with European practices.

 

If you don’t believe this statement, (I am sure there are some who will say load of rubbish) try arguing against this.

 

See:- http;//eurealist.co.uk/?p=676

[buckthorn]

I don’t think we can afford to me members of the EU.

 

There are almost 2 million people unemployed in the UK.

Young people are suffering with the worst youth unemployment

rate for 20 years; and half a million of them are without jobs.

 

Up and down this country, there are people going hungry,

queuing up at food banks, and not getting the proper health care

that they need.

 

Yet, what is the British Government doing?

 

Sending £17 billion a year of YOUR money to the European Union.

[buckthorn]

Mass immigration will destroy this country.

Outside the EU, we have the power to choose who comes into the UK.

 

A huge number of migrants from Eastern Europe have come to our country

in the last decade, putting pressure on our scarce resources of schools, housing

the transport network and the jobs market.

 

While members of the EU we have no say over the quantity or qualifications of

the EU citizens who come here.

 

EU mass immigration means free healthcare, and access to UK benefits for many

non-contributors. Are you happy with that? I know I’m not.

Edited March 20, 2016 by Andyorch
edited

[buckthorn]

But as we have seen, there are options for sending back EU citizens who just sit here on benefits without work provided its done in the first three months NOW - Just like Belgium is. - if the government actioned them as the populace seemingly want

 

.. and the government is choosing to let none-EU migrants in, we don't have too.

 

There is still the issue of benefits being sent to support family/children elsewhere - which needs properly addressing but is probably NOT a massive amount - yet

 

Britain cannot deport thousands of failed asylum seekers because

there is nowhere to send them, deportation sounds easy, it sounds

a common sense thing to do. But the truth is most of these illegal

migrants have got no place to be deported to.’

 

Some refuse to disclose their nationalities and even burn their passports,

they exploit human rights laws that bar expulsion of failed asylum seekers

the UK had become a 'soft touch'.

[buckthorn]

It won't be long now until Turkey joins and that means another 75 million will be entitled to come here and there is no way of stopping them.

 

You are absolutely correct it is frightening, unless we get out I feel very afraid for my children and grandchildren, god help us.

 

 

We have no control over immigration and it lowers wages. Research by the GMB union has found there has been a 13.8% fall in the real value

of average earnings since 2008.

 

A vast influx of unskilled labour from Eastern Europe does not benefit ordinary people, who see their wages undercut and their jobs put at risk.

 

EU leaders have publicly stated that the UK has absolutely NO chance of changing EU freedom of movement rules.

 

My conclusion is clear, that inside the EU we lose power, money and the freedom to choose who comes into our country. Post Brexit, we regain all

these things. Outside the EU we can introduce an Australian-style points system to allow in the people we need.

[buckthorn]

Yes MEN wrong on the Euro.

 

“The decision to launch the single currency….marks stability and

growth and is crucial to high levels of growth and employment.”

-Tony Blair, 1998

“Unless we come off the fence over joining the Euro…we will slip

backwards in Europe.”

-Peter Mandelson, 2003

“The euro…has provided great internal stability to the Eurozone.”

-Nick Clegg, 2002

“The euro has been a rock of stability.”

-Labour MEP, Richard Corbett, 2009

Wrong then, wrong now.

[buckthorn]

I thought this was about Europe so what has the bank got to do with it. Completely off topic.

 

You are absolutely correct Filcin, Tobyjugg has done this on a regular basis, when he has no answer to a post.

 

You call it going off topic I call it putting up a smoke screen, or smoke and mirrors as the media calls it.

[buckthorn]

The membership fee is huge. David Cameron boasted

about slightly decreasing the EU budget in 2014, yet

this was immediately followed by an increase in the

UK contribution

 

And then the EU demanded an additional £1.7billion

from the UK just to rub the salt in. In fact, the UK’s net

contribution to EU institutions has more than quadrupled

since 2008, according to the ONS.

 

We simply can’t afford the EU anymore because the EU

has maxed out our credit card. The British people have

been used by the EU as an ATM machine.

[buckthorn]

A now I understand! it's balanced smoke and mirrors, that,s OK then.

why did I not think of that.

 

Every thing you post is to introduce a balance to the subject

were as any post you do not agree with is propaganda, understood now wish some body had told me this before.

[buckthorn]

The cost of bailing out the Eurozone.

David Cameron in 2010 said that we would not have to

fork out another penny to bail out the countries ruined by

Euro membership, yet the European Commission last July

demanded that UK people hand over another £1 billion to

bail out Greece. This is on top of the £6.6 billion we’ve

already committed to bailing out Portugal and other Eurozone

countries.

 

The UK gets fined billion by the EU.

In July last year the European Commission fined the UK £642 million

(bet you can’t guess what for) yes you got it correct, for poor

accounting this was on a complex agricultural payment scheme,

designed by the EU. (this is really funny as the EU have never had

their own accounts signed off, and we get fined for poor accounting,

what a cheek, one rule for one and one for another)

This is just one EU fine of many.

Now for the burden of EU regulations.

These regulations destroy employment opportunities, force businesses

to move abroad, and reduce prosperity in the UK. EU external tariffs on

goods make our food, our shoes and clothes more expensive. And then

there’s the EU’s bureaucratic paperwork! And the wasteful projects the

EU spends our money on.

 

 

referendum_leaflet.pdf

Edited March 22, 2016 by citizenB

[buckthorn]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-cameron-may-delay-eu-referendum-until-2017-to-buy-time-for-concessions-from-european-leaders-a6680856.html

 

 

 

Tobyjug your link is totally spurious, as it was made

prior to Cameron’s so called negotiations on our

membership of this undemocratic EU.

 

The date of the statement in the independent is

Tuesday 6th October 2015, which is months prior to, Cameron coming back from Brussels with his so called deal, date 20th February 2016.

“Once again smoke and mirrors” (you are always saying, and I quote you:-

Thread No;280. We are clearly seeing who is and is not giving straight facts to the public.

and it appears to be no-one is giving straight facts.

If the cap fits you should wear it.

[buckthorn]

Why would you post a link when it is not relevant to your statement/thread??

[buckthorn]

me, it came yesterday and is now in the recycling bag!

 

Rather than put it in the bin you should send it back if everybody did this they would not be able to move around in 10 Downing street, for leaflets.

Got this out of the paper this morning:-

 

The suggestion is putting your EU leaflet in an envelope and addressing it to a Freepost

address used by Conservative Party fundraisers for their fat-cat donors.

 

This means that the Royal mail is paid by the recipient.

 

Some people may say this is a little hard on the poor old Tory Party. Well, it is their ruddy

leader who has sent out this leaflet. Let them have it out with him.

 

This is the address to sent it to:-

Joanna George, Freepost RSBB-XRZT-ZTXE, The Conservative Party Foundation,

30 Millbank , London SW1P 4DP.

You could even enclose a note saying what you think of his leaflet.

 

I think that's brilliant, so I have been going round the people in my area collecting their

leaflets and sending them back, one by one.

Edited April 13, 2016 by buckthorn
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